2021-06-15 11:05:20 <cbridge     > <veltas> It worked for me anyway, also maybe someone has stolen your nick
2021-06-15 11:06:48 <KipIngram   > I tried it both from my freenode server buffer and from the message buffer with my friend.
2021-06-15 11:06:56 <KipIngram   > Says I'm already identified when I try to identify.
2021-06-15 11:08:16 <KipIngram   > And it's letting me use my nick just fine.
2021-06-15 11:08:30 <veltas      > Scientists can't explain
2021-06-15 11:08:34 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> KipIngram: Try messaging me?  I don't have MODE +R, so it should work regardless of identification.
2021-06-15 11:08:49 <KipIngram   > One moment.
2021-06-15 11:09:11 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Ah.
2021-06-15 11:09:17 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> It says no such user.
2021-06-15 11:09:40 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> What server url do I need to be using?
2021-06-15 11:09:50 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> When I add the server?
2021-06-15 11:10:12 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> KipIngram: I'm currently on both irc://chat.freenode.net/ and irc://classic.freenode.net/ ; same nick.
2021-06-15 11:14:15 <cbridge     > <veltas> I really hope they don't keep classic around.....
2021-06-15 11:14:21 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> What a mess.
2021-06-15 11:14:28 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> This is my current buffer list:
2021-06-15 11:14:30 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat     Buffers list:
2021-06-15 11:14:32 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [1] core.weechat (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:34 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [1] irc.server.libera (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:36 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [1] irc.server.freenode (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:38 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [1] irc.server.classic (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:41 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [1] irc.server.freenode2 (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:43 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [2] perl.highmon (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:45 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [3] irc.libera.##forth (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:47 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [4] irc.freenode.#forth (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:49 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [5] irc.libera.Teckla (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:51 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [6] irc.libera.siraben (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:53 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [7] irc.freenode.PoppaVic (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:56 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> 15:14   weechat       [8] irc.freenode.#c-banned (notify: all)
2021-06-15 11:14:56 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> PoppaVic is the user it won't let me message.
2021-06-15 11:15:13 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> I think some of those are duplicates, but I just tried adding both the urls you gave me.
2021-06-15 11:15:31 <siraben     > don't send too many lines or you'll get k-lined
2021-06-15 11:15:33 <cbridge     > <veltas> Forking your own IRC network is really inexcusably stupid, they need to shut classic off
2021-06-15 11:16:28 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Thanks - sorry.
2021-06-15 11:17:09 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> I cycled through all of those freenode options in my main server buffer (with ctrl-x) and tried from each one - I get the same failure on all of them.
2021-06-15 11:17:11 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> KipIngram: I'm not familiar with Weechat, but assuming it supports "/msg", can you try to /msg NickServ ... from the very same window that you try to message the intended user?
2021-06-15 11:17:27 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> siraben: At times in the past I've posted code sections and have never had any trouble.
2021-06-15 11:17:40 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> I tried that.
2021-06-15 11:17:49 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> It tells me I'm already registered / identified.
2021-06-15 11:20:39 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> Well, can't say I understand what's going on, then.
2021-06-15 11:21:31 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Me either.
2021-06-15 11:21:38 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> All other things seem fine.
2021-06-15 11:23:15 <cbridge     > <veltas> Contact support
2021-06-15 11:23:39 <imode       > "support" lol.
2021-06-15 11:23:57 <imode       > there's no support coming.
2021-06-15 11:24:20 <imode       > this whole thing is inexcusably stupid.
2021-06-15 11:24:29 <imode       > if you're still on freenode... shoe fits.
2021-06-15 11:25:06 <veltas      > Making generalisations about people based on what networks they are connected to is not too smart
2021-06-15 11:25:07 <KipIngram   > It's a mess.
2021-06-15 11:25:15 <KipIngram   > I agree with that.
2021-06-15 11:25:24 <KipIngram   > But people are all upset over this.
2021-06-15 11:25:28 <veltas      > Also notice KipIngram and I are connected to both networks
2021-06-15 11:25:28 <KipIngram   > Lots of emotions flying around.
2021-06-15 11:26:08 <imode       > veltas: you're willingly connected to a malicious network with an insane "owner". you either have a risk tolerance higher than I do or can't figure out when to walk away.
2021-06-15 11:26:37 <KipIngram   > Risk of what, exactly?
2021-06-15 11:26:47 <veltas      > Yeah not sure what you're worried about
2021-06-15 11:27:00 <KipIngram   > Ever since this whole thing started no one has been able to tell me EXACTLY what they're worried about.
2021-06-15 11:27:07 <veltas      > Can we all just step back a moment and try not to exagerate things
2021-06-15 11:27:10 <KipIngram   > It's all just like a junior high playground feud.
2021-06-15 11:27:16 <KipIngram   > Yes, please.
2021-06-15 11:27:24 <KipIngram   > Let's all just move on and have interesting conversations.
2021-06-15 11:27:48 <imode       > hope you're behind a bouncer, 'cuz I don't want to be around when some douchebag decides to become a menace to those connected. other than lee, that is.
2021-06-15 11:27:59 <veltas      > I notice a lot of people are very emotional about which network I'm on, and I have unfortunately pissed people off for being on both networks (well actually mostly libera people are pissed off at me for being
2021-06-15 11:28:01 <siraben     > KipIngram: uses a server to connect
2021-06-15 11:28:12 <KipIngram   > PoppaVic is a friend of mine - I want to be able to chat with him.  That's where he is.
2021-06-15 11:28:27 <KipIngram   > Yes - it's like a bouncer but it's my private bouncer.
2021-06-15 11:28:32 <imode       > veltas: I mean, yeah, you're free to shoot yourself in the foot. :P
2021-06-15 11:28:46 <veltas      > "how dare you remain connected to the nasty network!"
2021-06-15 11:29:08 <imode       > yeah that's.. not the idea at play here.
2021-06-15 11:29:31 <imode       > just that if you're on that network, whatever's coming.. I wouldn't be surprised about.
2021-06-15 11:29:46 <siraben     > this is just a replay of this channel 12 hours ago
2021-06-15 11:29:54 <imode       > time is a flat circle.
2021-06-15 11:29:59 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Ok, I'm about to disconnect and restart weechat.  Back in a minute.
2021-06-15 11:30:23 <veltas      > All these vague predictions of harm, straight out of modern discourse
2021-06-15 11:31:03 <imode       > they dumped the service dbs lmao. if you get nickswiped or accidentally klined or have your nickserv password appear in a data dump.
2021-06-15 11:31:14 <imode       > that's kind of the stuff that can happen.
2021-06-15 11:31:16 <veltas      > I've already been accidentally k-lined
2021-06-15 11:31:17 <siraben     > I trust no nicks on leenode now because of it
2021-06-15 11:31:23 <siraben     > it's open season
2021-06-15 11:31:27 <imode       > lmao.
2021-06-15 11:31:30 <veltas      > By the current libera staff, although it was an honest mistake
2021-06-15 11:31:45 <veltas      > Back on freenode ages ago they k-lined a ton of people accidentally because of spam
2021-06-15 11:31:47 <imode       > siraben: yeah I wonder how that's going to play out with the loyalists.
2021-06-15 11:31:48 <veltas      > It happens
2021-06-15 11:32:05 <imode       > "buh buh buh you said I could keep my nick!"
2021-06-15 11:32:25 <nihilazo    > I heard that freenode have also set up an anon chat and started banning users who use irccloud or other similar sites because they want to force use of their own bouncer
2021-06-15 11:32:26 <siraben     > imode: just relax, you yourself are on libera, you can mute the bridge if you like
2021-06-15 11:32:33 <veltas      > I hope you don't think I'm a loyalist because I'm connected to their network
2021-06-15 11:32:38 <nihilazo    > although I'm not in any freenode channels any more so like, I'm purely look at this from the outside
2021-06-15 11:32:39 <imode       > veltas: hardly.
2021-06-15 11:32:49 <nihilazo    > I was connected to freenode until like yesterday still
2021-06-15 11:32:54 <siraben     > nihilazo: I've also heard that
2021-06-15 11:32:56 <imode       > there are people more adamant than those still connected.
2021-06-15 11:33:07 <siraben     > the timing is plausible
2021-06-15 11:33:10 <siraben     > are you still?
2021-06-15 11:33:25 <nihilazo    > I also heard that "nickserv" got deregistered as a nick and somebody started harvesting passwords
2021-06-15 11:33:30 <nihilazo    > during the transition between ircd
2021-06-15 11:33:32 <imode       > big surprise there.
2021-06-15 11:33:41 <nihilazo    > it's a mess. It's all a mess.
2021-06-15 11:33:44 <veltas      > I've never trusted IRC passwords
2021-06-15 11:33:50 <veltas      > I don't use IRC passwords anywhere else
2021-06-15 11:33:51 <nihilazo    > Good thing that we have alternative networks that are run by competent folks
2021-06-15 11:33:55 <siraben     > I already assume passwords are plaintext for IRC
2021-06-15 11:33:56 <imode       > I'm not worried about the network operators being a malicious entity. I'm worried about the opportunists who will exploit an unstable network.
2021-06-15 11:33:58 <veltas      > nihilazo: Exactly
2021-06-15 11:34:02 <siraben     > if you're using bank passwords on IRC, that's an idiotic move
2021-06-15 11:34:03 <nihilazo    > I mean I use completely unique passwords for everything anyway
2021-06-15 11:34:14 <nihilazo    > but yeah irc is not secure
2021-06-15 11:34:21 <nihilazo    > never has been, never will be
2021-06-15 11:34:23 <imode       > siraben: BankServ when.
2021-06-15 11:34:23 <nihilazo    > that's not what it's intended to be anyway
2021-06-15 11:34:43 <siraben     > imode: just wait until lee decides to add crypto somehow
2021-06-15 11:34:59 <imode       > I mean, we're already on track for one of the more popular predictions.
2021-06-15 11:35:03 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Ok, when I registered it said I would get an email, and I had to follow the instructions in it.
2021-06-15 11:35:08 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> But I've gotten no such email.
2021-06-15 11:35:35 <imode       > lee's going to block all bouncers but his, plop a "custom freenode client" in front of it, and monetize the absolute balls off of it.
2021-06-15 11:36:23 <crc         > Kip: I've seen reports that there are problems with freenode's email server for registrations
2021-06-15 11:36:47 <imode       > I'd be surprised if lee's staff know how to run an e-mail server.
2021-06-15 11:37:00 <veltas      > Does anyone?
2021-06-15 11:37:06 <siraben     > remexre: I wish I didn't have to write so much boilerplate when verifying C programs
2021-06-15 11:37:07 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> Ok, well, maybe it's just that I can't message him until I've completed that.
2021-06-15 11:37:09 <siraben     > idk VST is sort of verbose
2021-06-15 11:37:09 <imode       > I mean.. libera folks do.
2021-06-15 11:37:18 <siraben     > lee's staff can't even run sigyn
2021-06-15 11:37:19 <veltas      > In a typical office snail mail is faster than email across the room
2021-06-15 11:37:24 <siraben     > (the anti spam mechanism)
2021-06-15 11:37:38 <imode       > why are you arguing in favor of incompetent shitheels.
2021-06-15 11:37:40 <imode       > :P
2021-06-15 11:37:46 <veltas      > Why do you think I am?
2021-06-15 11:38:14 <imode       > because your overall tone is swaying that way with every mention, like you have to defend them.
2021-06-15 11:38:25 <veltas      > imode please take a deep breath and re-read what I write under the assumption I'm not taking sides just because not literally everything I say about freenode isn't negative
2021-06-15 11:38:53 <imode       > just calling my perception when I see it.
2021-06-15 11:39:01 <veltas      > Too often in these divides, you get camps of people that identify with certain positions, and if you dare question a position you must be in the other camp!
2021-06-15 11:39:05 <imode       > would you like me to be more obscure than that.
2021-06-15 11:39:07 <veltas      > Maybe you are doing this
2021-06-15 11:39:28 <KipIngram   > Our culture has been training us to be this way: totally intolerant of anything short of "100% agreement."
2021-06-15 11:39:34 <KipIngram   > You see it in politics all the time.
2021-06-15 11:39:54 <veltas      > No imode, but I'm saying you should check yourself, because I am actually not in favour of freenode. Right now I am leaning extremely heavily in favour of libera.chat based on how things are going
2021-06-15 11:40:15 <imode       > consider myself checked.
2021-06-15 11:40:35 <siraben     > imode: I agree with veltas
2021-06-15 11:40:58 <siraben     > clearly I am not invested in freenode but your dialogue is constantly charged
2021-06-15 11:41:09 <imode       > I tend to be a charged individual.
2021-06-15 11:41:18 <imode       > can't please everybody.
2021-06-15 11:41:44 <KipIngram   > Just remember that eveyone else isn't here to please you.  Live and let live.
2021-06-15 11:41:58 <KipIngram   > It's just a chat platform - it's not like our way of life is on the line.
2021-06-15 11:42:22 <KipIngram   > I just want to talk about Forth.
2021-06-15 11:42:25 <siraben     > imode: of course you can't, but we can make things more pleasant for all parties if we reduce the drama and up the technical discussions
2021-06-15 11:42:37 <KipIngram   > Amen.
2021-06-15 11:42:40 <imode       > so whip up a technical discussion.
2021-06-15 11:43:35 <siraben     > it'll occur naturally and spontaneously
2021-06-15 11:44:05 <imode       > sounds terrifying.
2021-06-15 11:44:13 <cess11      > i thought the patriot missile pdf was a fun read
2021-06-15 11:44:24 <imode       > ominous, even.
2021-06-15 11:45:07 <cess11      > i also trust the computers in my car but they control details and the overall mechanics but not steering conclusively, while they of course control some pumps to make it easier
2021-06-15 11:45:20 <veltas      > cess11: Yep it was a good read, but it does annoy me how bad that kind of software is
2021-06-15 11:45:22 <cess11      > and not the overall &c.
2021-06-15 11:45:28 <cess11      > yeah, for sure
2021-06-15 11:45:49 <veltas      > I currently have to work with the standards that are meant to keep you safe and really they don't do enough. Or rather, you can't standardise "don't write shit code"
2021-06-15 11:46:11 <siraben     > formal methods help to an extent in critical systems
2021-06-15 11:46:14 <siraben     > you don't want a pacemaker to crash, for instance
2021-06-15 11:46:29 <veltas      > Yes but they aren't applied everywhere
2021-06-15 11:46:30 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> How does one contact support?
2021-06-15 11:46:40 <veltas      > A lot of autonomous systems are written in C
2021-06-15 11:46:43 <siraben     > #help presumably
2021-06-15 11:46:57 <cbridge     > <veltas> Or #freenode
2021-06-15 11:47:16 <cess11      > true, that's just about the only thing uncle bob gets right, unless programmers form a guild with its own methods for producing good product the state will mess it up, but if we do we'll probably get a treatment s
2021-06-15 11:47:24 <cbridge     > <veltas> Might have to look up email if you can't identify
2021-06-15 11:47:52 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> JFTR, I don't seem to see imode's messages on this side of the bridge.
2021-06-15 11:47:56 <veltas      > cess11: But these standards are written by software engineers
2021-06-15 11:48:16 <cess11      > not under threat of being ousted from the profession, i assume
2021-06-15 11:48:19 <remexre     > siraben: wrt VST, unfortunate
2021-06-15 11:48:22 <veltas      > You can't standardise writing good code
2021-06-15 11:48:27 <cess11      > more likely to please people with bags of money
2021-06-15 11:49:06 <veltas      > The key to writing safe code is to have formal verification if you can, for everything else comprehensive testing and reviews
2021-06-15 11:49:10 <veltas      > And good engineers
2021-06-15 11:49:54 <veltas      > And ideally don't have everything written 1000 miles away from the people that designed it
2021-06-15 11:50:18 <remexre     > it'd be really nice if you could integrate it with proofs generated by external things, e.g. frama-c or an abstract interpretation engine
2021-06-15 11:50:57 <veltas      > Formal systems don't actually fix everything
2021-06-15 11:51:01 <remexre     > but idk of a way to do that without either axioming in "trust these proofs" or formalizing the theories they operate by in coq (maybe this owuld be easier for frama-c than abstract interpretation)
2021-06-15 11:51:07 <cess11      > the machine has to be simple and proveable too
2021-06-15 11:51:51 <cess11      > there has been some fuss from big us companies lately about silent data corruption errors in cpu cores
2021-06-15 11:53:30 <remexre     > yeah, I was actually wondering with those how Graviton compares to Xeon -- I know ARM uses their formal, machine-readable spec of the ISA for verification, so I wonder how much that'd help suss these things ou
2021-06-15 11:53:49 <remexre     > in particular, they can track test coverage of hardware in terms of the pseudocode in the spec
2021-06-15 11:54:14 <remexre     > (though I suppose for literal hardware failure, doesn't help much)
2021-06-15 11:54:54 <cbridge     > <mark4> when a beef stake that used to cost $7 now costs $50 who is going to be buying a new cpu thats .000000000000000001% better
2021-06-15 11:55:12 <cbridge     > <mark4> and 100 times the price of one you can get on ebay
2021-06-15 11:59:19 <cess11      > not sure which companies simultaneously dabbles in beef and data integrity on many cpus, maybe that's not a common issue
2021-06-15 11:59:48 <imode       > 
ACTION now wonders how moores law applies to steak quality.

2021-06-15 11:59:58 <KipIngram   > :-)
2021-06-15 12:01:01 <cess11      > i moved 350 kilometers a year ago and beef went down from 30 euros per kilo to 8 and quality quadrupled since i now have a neighbour that enjoys doing beef business with me
2021-06-15 12:03:43 <remexre     > maybe some datacenter uses cast iron skillets for heatsinks and cooks steak that way
2021-06-15 12:03:51 <cbridge     > <mark4> well bill gates owns 90% of the farm land in the usa now or something ;)
2021-06-15 12:10:24 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> "Q: What do server farms raise?"  "A: The temperature."
2021-06-15 12:11:50 <crc         > not that much. It's like 300k acres. Maybe more than anyone else, but there's around 900 million acres of farm land total in the usa
2021-06-15 12:12:50 <cbridge     > <proteusguy> mark4, good morning.
2021-06-15 12:12:50 <cbridge     > <proteusguy> perhaps not...
2021-06-15 12:12:53 <cbridge     > <proteusguy> KipIngram, and 6th street!
2021-06-15 12:12:53 <cbridge     > <proteusguy> veltas, yeah I remember this incident. system clock drift caused it to miss the inbound missle.
2021-06-15 12:13:45 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> The messages to PoppaVic weren't working because my email hadn't been confirme.d
2021-06-15 12:17:01 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> They manually confirmed me in #help.
2021-06-15 12:17:07 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> So all seems well now.
2021-06-15 12:32:46 <siraben     > remexre: what I'm doing to ease working with VST a bit is writing yasnippet expansions in Emacs, haha
2021-06-15 12:33:00 <siraben     > so if you know Hoare logic, a lot of the stuff becomes relevant again when verifying C code
2021-06-15 12:33:30 <siraben     > VST uses separation logic as you probably know, so I need to do some reading on the proof rules and notion of heaplets
2021-06-15 12:36:35 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> proteusguy: Yes indeed - 6th is a fun place.
2021-06-15 12:36:53 <siraben     > remexre: definitely more in line with our interests see easyconferences.eu/lics2021/ happening at the end of june
2021-06-15 12:37:32 <siraben     > some really cool topics
2021-06-15 12:37:59 <siraben     > list of papers: http://easyconferences.eu/lics2021/accepted-papers/
2021-06-15 12:52:24 <crc         > mark4: is clog on the new network?
2021-06-15 13:15:38 <remexre     > siraben: ooh, nice!
2021-06-15 13:16:18 <remexre     > is yasnippet able to do folding too?
2021-06-15 13:16:33 <remexre     > (I'm a Vim user, so idk any emacs packages)
2021-06-15 13:20:10 <siraben     > remexre: lol any hints for proving quicksort correct btw
2021-06-15 13:20:15 <siraben     > rip the loop invariant I would have to find
2021-06-15 13:20:19 <siraben     > no yasnippet is for expansion
2021-06-15 13:20:48 <remexre     > ah; it'd be really nice if there were some like, generic macro system in the editor
2021-06-15 13:21:06 <remexre     > but I suppose doing it "right" would need a parser for the file, and I've heard really really bad things about parsing Coq
2021-06-15 13:22:32 <cbridge     > -!- ChanServ changed mode/#forth -> +o  ChanServ
2021-06-15 13:23:37 <remexre     > wrt quicksort, maybe something like, "before the current value of i (or whatever variable), elements are before the pivot iff they're <= it"
2021-06-15 13:25:00 <siraben     > remexre: also auto indentation can be annoying with custom Notation in Coq
2021-06-15 13:27:15 <siraben     > oh and notation interferes with parsing of course
2021-06-15 13:39:39 <cbridge     > -!- ChanServ changed mode/#forth -> +o  KipIngram
2021-06-15 13:40:25 <cbridge     > <mark4> how do you /query someone accross the bridge lol
2021-06-15 13:40:34 <cbridge     > <mark4> or get a list of users on the other side of the bridge?
2021-06-15 13:41:17 <crc         > mark4: I have nothing implemented for this
2021-06-15 13:42:26 <amirouche   > do not ask to ask :>
2021-06-15 13:42:36 <cbridge     > <mark4> drat lol
2021-06-15 13:46:31 <siraben     > I'd rather query info not get propagated
2021-06-15 13:46:40 <crc         > channel logs for this side are at forth.chat, updated every 15 minutes currently
2021-06-15 13:47:03 <crc         > siraben: I have no plans for that. Just transmitting standard messages.
2021-06-15 13:52:12 <cbridge     > <mark4> it kind of makes it difficult for me to /query crc tho :)
2021-06-15 13:52:18 <cbridge     > <mark4> till we get his ban sorted out
2021-06-15 14:22:04 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> There's an easy fix for that.  ;-)
2021-06-15 14:24:08 <veltas      > merge sort is the easiest 'fast' sorting algorithm for me in forth
2021-06-15 14:26:04 <KipIngram   > The only "standard algorithm" I've dealt much with in Forth is linked list handling, both single and double.  Single's sort of a slam dunk, but doubly linked lists seem to not handle well unless you com
2021-06-15 14:26:43 <siraben     > I'm motivated to look at doubly-linked lists again because of Knuth's work on dancing links
2021-06-15 14:26:45 <siraben     > which is neat
2021-06-15 14:26:47 <cbridge     > <mark4> but that might not be as easy to do as it sounds :)
2021-06-15 14:26:59 <KipIngram   > I couldn't tell you right now what that way is, but I've got old code and can go inspect.
2021-06-15 14:27:09 <cbridge     > <mark4> i.e. i would be in query with the bot, so would crc and our chag would be independent of any other queries
2021-06-15 14:27:13 <siraben     > the core idea is that everyone knows how to delete from a doubly-linked list, but you can also apply some steps to undo the removal, so this can be used for various backtracking problems
2021-06-15 14:27:26 <KipIngram   > I'm going to need the doubly linked list stuff again to do my disk buffer management, which is my pending task.
2021-06-15 14:28:50 <KipIngram   > Just got back from walking/jogging.  it's DAMN HOT out there.
2021-06-15 14:29:41 <KipIngram   > Heat is hard for me these days; ten years ago or so I was out jogging and had a very minor heat stroke (I think).  I was able to hobble home at a really slow walk, but ever since that day it's been hard
2021-06-15 14:30:45 <KipIngram   > It's 94 out there today - when it's t his hot I soak a t-shirt in cold water before I leave and wear it, and use a hand towel dampened with ice rolled up in it and drape it around my neck.
2021-06-15 14:30:49 <KipIngram   > And don't overdo.
2021-06-15 14:31:04 <KipIngram   > But if I try to wait for it to get cooler this afternoon there are apt to be thunderstorms.
2021-06-15 14:31:49 <KipIngram   > I usually don't try to do more than 2-3 miles on the really hot days.
2021-06-15 14:36:11 <imode       > KipIngram: you close to the equator?
2021-06-15 14:40:02 <KipIngram   > No - I'm about 30 north.  Houston Texas area.  Not as hot as some other parts of the state, but generally very humid.
2021-06-15 14:40:09 <KipIngram   > Close to the coast.
2021-06-15 14:40:22 <KipIngram   > Well, close enough for it to affect the humidity.
2021-06-15 14:40:24 <imode       > ahh wow, yeah you guys are roasting right now.
2021-06-15 14:40:26 <KipIngram   > Still a fair drive.
2021-06-15 14:40:37 <KipIngram   > Yes.  This is about as hot as it usually gets, but it's never dry.
2021-06-15 14:40:54 <KipIngram   > I think the moisture in the air makes it hard for it to get much hotter, or super cold in the winter.
2021-06-15 14:41:04 <KipIngram   > Winters usually subject us to "around freezing" temperatures.
2021-06-15 14:41:06 <imode       > I'd almost prefer a dry heat, I can't stand mugginess.
2021-06-15 14:41:15 <KipIngram   > Maybe a handful of degrees below a few nights a year.
2021-06-15 14:41:28 <KipIngram   > But this past winter we had a winter storm with historically low temperatures.
2021-06-15 14:41:35 <KipIngram   > It was like 8-9 F one night.
2021-06-15 14:41:44 <KipIngram   > And most of the state LOST ELECTRICITY.
2021-06-15 14:41:52 <imode       > yeeeeah.
2021-06-15 14:41:57 <KipIngram   > We were without power for about 50 hours - it got down to 35 F inside the house.
2021-06-15 14:42:08 <KipIngram   > Two words of advice: Ski attire.
2021-06-15 14:42:24 <KipIngram   > Some of those high tech cold weather things work really well.
2021-06-15 14:42:30 <KipIngram   > I put that stuff on and never got cold.
2021-06-15 14:42:56 <crc         > 35F is tolerable for me :)
2021-06-15 14:42:57 <KipIngram   > Yeah, the state officials that manage our power grid down here caught real hell in the aftermath.
2021-06-15 14:43:08 <KipIngram   > They'd screwed the pooch pretty badly.
2021-06-15 14:43:08 <imode       > good.
2021-06-15 14:43:51 <imode       > they should be catching flak, how do you screw up that badly.
2021-06-15 14:51:07 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  Incompetence.  I mean, it wasn't a minor foul-up; a huge part of the state's population was affected.  It was just a gross failure.
2021-06-15 14:51:49 <KipIngram   > Thank goodness we had gas-fired water heat and stovetop; at least we could run warm baths and cook.
2021-06-15 14:52:17 <KipIngram   > I hear some places in the US (some urban areas) are seeking to ban gas appliances.
2021-06-15 14:52:23 <KipIngram   > Including stovetops, which is sheer idiocy.
2021-06-15 14:52:42 <KipIngram   > Electric stovetops don't cook as well as gas ones do - you have far less control over the heat you apply to your food.
2021-06-15 14:53:01 <KipIngram   > I've heard induction cooking units can rival gas stovetops, but I've never tried one.
2021-06-15 14:53:12 <KipIngram   > May be true.
2021-06-15 14:55:29 <KipIngram   > Restaurants in those cities are up in arms about it, and I don't blame them.
2021-06-15 14:55:59 <KipIngram   > I think any really good chef would throw a hissy fit if you told him he couldn't have a gas range.
2021-06-15 15:15:10 <cess11      > gas is easier and can change temperature upwards faster but when one knows the electric stove well enough one can predict where temperature needs to be in a short while and adjust accordingly
2021-06-15 15:17:08 <cess11      > i find halogen to be a decent compromise in places where electricity is cheap and gas is not
2021-06-15 16:56:55 <dave0       > maw
2021-06-15 16:59:34 <veltas      > KipIngram: Nothing else is like gas
2021-06-15 17:02:07 <veltas      > And yes you're right, it is a fact that places nearer the coast have less drastic seasonal changes
2021-06-15 17:21:13 <cbridge     > -!- ChanServ changed mode/#forth -> +o  ChanServ
2021-06-15 17:35:08 <cbridge     > <crab1> What's up bridge folks
2021-06-15 17:36:50 <crc         > I'm enjoying a quiet evening
2021-06-15 17:36:55 <lispmacs[work]> just hanging out over here with the real Forth programmers
2021-06-15 17:37:27 <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION looks around for a Scottsman

2021-06-15 17:41:17 <crc         > Working on finishing up channel log stuff for #retro (I still need to generate gopher & gemini directories for the new logs)
2021-06-15 17:46:22 <cbridge     > -!- Bogen85 changed mode/#forth -> +o  mark4
2021-06-15 17:50:23 <KipIngram   > Well, it's a good thing I exercised earlier; I wouldn't be doing it now.
2021-06-15 17:50:34 <KipIngram   > Major summer thunderstorm going on now.
2021-06-15 17:51:06 <crc         > We had storms last night. I enjoyed watching the lightning
2021-06-15 17:51:18 <KipIngram   > Yeah, it can be fun for sure.
2021-06-15 18:35:21 <KipIngram   > https://ipfs.io/
2021-06-15 18:35:29 <KipIngram   > ^^ - that looks very interesting.
2021-06-15 19:01:28 <cbridge     > <crab1> @crc do you have a gemini server in retroforth?
2021-06-15 19:03:23 <crc         > crab1: I have begun one, but it's not supporting vhosts yet; I hope to finish it this week
2021-06-15 19:05:20 <crc         > Test install is running on forthworks.com currently ( gemini://forthworks.com/ )
2021-06-15 19:13:26 <cbridge     > <crab1> I only heard about gemini a couple days ago, I wonder how widely used it is going to be
2021-06-15 19:16:25 <crc         > I don't really care about that. It's a reasonable protocol that, by design, is much harder to abuse than http/html/javascript/etc
2021-06-15 19:31:01 <cbridge     > <crab1> personally I care whether reasonable protocols are used instead of the unreasonable ones that are predominantly used
2021-06-15 19:31:27 <cbridge     > <crab1> I like to see good things being used
2021-06-15 19:33:03 <crc         > I prefer the simpler protocols; things I can model in my mind as a lone developer
2021-06-15 19:34:04 <crc         > Minimizing external dependencies and unnecessary complexity is important to me
2021-06-15 19:34:59 <cbridge     > <crab1> that's a significan part of 'reasonable' I think
2021-06-15 19:35:07 <crc         > :)
2021-06-15 19:36:00 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> I use Lynx for most of my Web reading.  As such, I tend to consider the "subset" of HTTP/HTML that it implements "definitive."
2021-06-15 19:36:34 <cbridge     > <crab1> I can't find a browser I'm happy with
2021-06-15 19:38:14 <crc         > crab1: same here
2021-06-15 19:39:51 <crc         > I browse gopher using a few clients I've written for my own use
2021-06-15 19:39:59 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> Other than that, I rather like the fact that I can both read my HTML documents with Lynx (and author with Vim or Emacs) /and/ at the same time share it with "average Joe," as wel
2021-06-15 19:40:09 <crc         > I'll write a gemini client eventually
2021-06-15 19:40:49 <cbridge     > <iv4nshm4k0v> (FWIW, I use Lynx for over two decades now, so it stands to reason I'm pretty satisfied with it.)
2021-06-15 19:43:37 <lispmacs[work]> I've been interested in the Nyxt browser but have had trouble getting it to build
2021-06-15 19:57:11 <lispmacs[work]> I just got it installed now through Guix. I'll give this a try
2021-06-15 20:00:52 <crc         > nyxt requires a graphical display iirc?
2021-06-15 20:16:18 <crc         > yes, so it's not going to be usable on my system
2021-06-15 20:21:38 <cbridge     > <crab1> I used luakit for a bit it was ok
2021-06-15 20:21:46 <cbridge     > <crab1> that is graphical again though
2021-06-15 20:53:38 <ttmrichter  > siraben: Not "leenode".  "fleenode".
2021-06-15 21:06:19 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> crab1 crc: Have you tried brave-browser?
2021-06-15 21:06:34 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> I just found out about it today - don't know a lot about it.
2021-06-15 21:06:42 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> But it has that ipfs thing built into it.
2021-06-15 21:06:58 <cbridge     > <KipIngram> You can browse ipfs in it, using either a gateway node or by having it run a local node while it's running.
2021-06-15 21:32:23 <cbridge     > <crab1> I heard of brave but some people I knew had some sort of issue with it I dont remember what so I never gave it a try
2021-06-15 21:42:44 <siraben     > I heard Brave browser has a somewhat sketchy record track
2021-06-15 21:45:31 <siraben     > can't find it now but I used it as a headless browser, now ungoogled-chromium does the same
2021-06-15 21:45:32 <siraben     > Without special IPFS features or anything like that, of course, so YMMV
2021-06-15 21:54:32 <remexre     > yeah, I thought their adblock would replace ads with those of companies they partnered with or something?
2021-06-15 22:13:11 <siraben     > "acceptable ads" sort of thing
2021-06-15 22:13:44 <KipIngram   > siraben: "track record."  You were close.  ;-)
2021-06-15 22:14:12 <siraben     > KipIngram: oops, yes, that's what happens when one just wakes up I guess :)
2021-06-15 22:14:16 <KipIngram   > I'm not familiar with any of tha t- I just learned of it tonight.
2021-06-15 22:14:27 <KipIngram   > In connection with ipfs.
2021-06-15 22:14:43 <KipIngram   > I have ipfs running currently on my virtual server - it seems... Interesting.
2021-06-15 22:28:55 <crc         > ipfs involves crypto, so it's another thing I'll not be able to implement on my own
2021-06-15 22:29:20 <crc         > I've bookmarked that for later review though
2021-06-15 22:33:17 <KipIngram   > I wish I had a good book that treated the popular crypto algorithms.    I might be able to follow it ok - I know a fair amount of math.  I read a description of how Schor's algorithm works once, and was
2021-06-15 22:38:28 <crc         > I've done a little with crypto stuff, but it's been years at this point
2021-06-15 22:40:49 <crc         > Not too worried about it. My personal system doesn't need it, so I'm not going to sink a lot of time into it until I actually need it.
2021-06-15 22:42:05 <siraben     > KipIngram: of course a lot of it is related to areas of math like number theory and abstract algebra
2021-06-15 22:42:28 <siraben     > a presentation of elliptic curve crypto would interesting to see from a more abstract perspective
2021-06-15 22:42:35 <KipIngram   > Right.
2021-06-15 22:42:56 <siraben     > RSA of course is a classic everyone should try to implement
2021-06-15 22:43:01 <KipIngram   > I'm not a "hot shot" in those areas or anything, but I understand finite fields fairly well, which covers at least some crypto.
2021-06-15 22:43:48 <siraben     > yeah, having a field structures gives you multiplicative inverses, which is really valuable when multiplying is easy but finding inverses is hard
2021-06-15 22:43:51 <siraben     > s/structures/structure
2021-06-15 22:43:52 <KipIngram   > In graduate school I boned up on math - took as much as I could manage.  But unfortunately I pursued only what I'll call "continuous math."  Advanced calculus, differential equations, tensor calculus, a
2021-06-15 22:44:10 <siraben     > did you take real analysis?
2021-06-15 22:44:25 <KipIngram   > I completely neglected "discrete math," and I'm very sorry now - I've come to realize how important it is in a lot of fields.
2021-06-15 22:44:38 <KipIngram   > No, I didn't take that.
2021-06-15 22:44:58 <KipIngram   > You could describe the courses I took as... "applied mathematics."
2021-06-15 22:45:08 <KipIngram   > I didn't venture into pure mathematics.
2021-06-15 22:45:11 <siraben     > I see
2021-06-15 22:45:30 <siraben     > a balance of both is good of course, real analysis was when all the calculus hand-waving disappeared for me, because they built up the theory from the definition of the reals, and there are some surprising fu
2021-06-15 23:22:10 <KipIngram   > Right.  I've seen YouTube lecturs and read stuff to at least have a feel for it, but no real "depth" there at all.
2021-06-15 23:29:17 <KipIngram   > I admire the level of detail that pure math people go into in building up the materials from more or less nothing, but it's not the sort of work I actually enjoy myself.
2021-06-15 23:44:58 <siraben     > yeah, and if you want to get really "low level" in mathematics, there's stuff like foundations of math, logic, set theory and type theory