2021-06-20 00:00:13 <crc         > maw
2021-06-20 05:23:23 <neuro`      > b
2021-06-20 10:35:08 <ApleG       > hey guys
2021-06-20 10:35:16 <ApleG       > i made it to liber.chat : D
2021-06-20 10:35:55 <siraben     > ApleG: congrats
2021-06-20 10:36:44 <ApleG       > im looking to make a forth (interpeter? compiler?) on a ti84plus calculator in asm
2021-06-20 10:38:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Shalom
2021-06-20 10:41:37 <brainfunnel > that sounds like a really fun project.
2021-06-20 10:58:45 <ApleG       > brainfunnel, this is my first time looking at forth
2021-06-20 10:58:49 <ApleG       > i dont know the most about it
2021-06-20 10:58:59 <ApleG       > ive read its compiled and interpreted but what does that mean?
2021-06-20 11:06:17 <brainfunnel > ApleG: I'm also very new to forth. from what I understand, forth is interpreted. but it has two interpreters, an inner and outer one. the inner interpreter is able to compile new words into
2021-06-20 11:08:17 <ApleG       > what does the outer interpreter do?
2021-06-20 11:09:02 <ApleG       > what does it convert the sub routines into?
2021-06-20 11:09:08 <ApleG       > sincei know it doesnt use bytecode
2021-06-20 11:10:42 <brainfunnel > the outer interpreter afaik is what takes input and executes it
2021-06-20 11:12:22 <brainfunnel > ApleG: http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm what I read to get up to speed on how forth works
2021-06-20 11:12:38 <ApleG       > thanks, will check it out
2021-06-20 11:12:43 <brainfunnel > and I've been peeking at other resources to try and get a handle on how the dictionary is structured
2021-06-20 11:12:51 <ApleG       > any ideas for any cool spins to spice up my project?
2021-06-20 11:13:17 <brainfunnel > hmm, i think the project will shape itself as you work on it to the specs you've got in mind.
2021-06-20 11:13:57 <ApleG       > alright, how long do you think it could take?
2021-06-20 11:15:45 <brainfunnel > not sure! it seems you can spin up a forth to bootstrap itself with in, well, however long you feel like. there's bootstrap forth that's like 400loc of C + the mental capacity required to un
2021-06-20 11:16:18 <brainfunnel > if you're doing a forth in assembly, I'd suggest looking at jonesforth. the thing is literate x86. I haven't sat down and read it as I should, but it's supposed to be very good.
2021-06-20 11:17:16 <ApleG       > okay thanks
2021-06-20 11:17:25 <ApleG       > i think my calculator uses z80 asm
2021-06-20 11:17:34 <ApleG       > luckily ive worked with similar asm on the gameboy :p
2021-06-20 11:18:08 <brainfunnel > oh thats awesome you've done gameboy stuff. im sure there's a z80 forth you could study out there too.
2021-06-20 11:20:16 <nihilazo    > "400loc of C + the mental capacity required to understand why it uses sed in the makefile"
2021-06-20 11:20:17 <nihilazo    > lol
2021-06-20 11:20:31 <nihilazo    > why tf does it use sed in the makefile
2021-06-20 11:21:04 <brainfunnel > unix programmers will literally use sed in their makefiles rather than going to therapy
2021-06-20 11:22:45 <brainfunnel > nihilazo: i have no clue frankly. it does a really wacky thing to build the dictionary. it has a macro for defining words and their associated symbols and then when it builds the dictionary
2021-06-20 11:23:23 <brainfunnel > you'd have to read it https://forth.neocities.org/bootstrap/
2021-06-20 11:24:00 <brainfunnel > idk if it's a prank or something. there's no contact information anywhere for this thing.
2021-06-20 11:24:05 <brainfunnel > but it works
2021-06-20 11:29:38 <siraben     > ApleG: which calculator do you have?
2021-06-20 11:41:58 <ApleG       > ti-84 plus
2021-06-20 11:43:43 <siraben     > ApleG: well, you're in luck1
2021-06-20 11:43:46 <siraben     > luck!
2021-06-20 11:44:07 <siraben     > I wrote a Forth that runs on the TI-84+ https://github.com/siraben/ti84-forth
2021-06-20 11:44:21 <siraben     > Or even to replace to OS with a Forth-based one https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80
2021-06-20 11:44:49 <siraben     > direct download link for the Forth: https://github.com/siraben/ti84-forth/releases/download/1.1.1/forth.8xp
2021-06-20 12:22:59 <MrMobius    > siraben, does it have floats?
2021-06-20 12:58:29 <crc         > MrMobius: "Note that floating point routines are commented out by default to save on space"; it has them, but disabled by default
2021-06-20 13:12:48 <siraben     > yeah, it uses the TI-OS's floating point stack
2021-06-20 13:12:56 <siraben     > good enough for basic stuff that I've tried
2021-06-20 13:13:24 <siraben     > but you cannot visualize the FP stack, the commented out words are just doing syscalls
2021-06-20 13:21:46 <MrMobius    > siraben, cool
2021-06-20 13:35:06 <KipIngram   > Hmm.  The bridge seems down.
2021-06-20 13:35:22 <KipIngram   > siraben: Yes, it is indeed horribly hot down here right now.
2021-06-20 13:36:00 <KipIngram   > I have to be careful about how I exercise - I had a minor "heat stroke" like episode back around 2010, and ever since the heat tends to come upon me quickly after I've been out a while.
2021-06-20 13:36:20 <KipIngram   > I have to be careful not to have that happen when I'm well away from home - it can be hard to get back.
2021-06-20 13:36:44 <KipIngram   > And the worst thing I can do is sit down to rest - if I do that I can hardly stand back up without it getting difficult.
2021-06-20 13:36:51 <Zarutian_HTC> KipIngram: you do have a water bottle with you?
2021-06-20 13:36:58 <KipIngram   > Oh yes.
2021-06-20 13:37:10 <KipIngram   > And I bought a cooling vest, and a neck wrap I can pack ice in.
2021-06-20 13:37:14 <KipIngram   > Those things help a lot.
2021-06-20 13:38:04 <KipIngram   > I've managed to exercise regularly through this, at least "reasonably."
2021-06-20 13:38:18 <KipIngram   > Today is an off day, though.
2021-06-20 13:38:36 <KipIngram   > It's paying off - my weight is down to about 194, which I'm pretty happy about.
2021-06-20 13:38:47 <KipIngram   > A year ago or so I weighed 235-240.
2021-06-20 13:39:03 <KipIngram   > I regard 180-ish as my "best weight."
2021-06-20 13:39:35 <Zarutian_HTC> you have a temperture app in your phone? it seems that they are putting more and more sensors in these things nowdays
2021-06-20 13:39:56 <Zarutian_HTC> pounds or kgs?
2021-06-20 13:40:23 <KipIngram   > Hahahahahahahah.
2021-06-20 13:40:26 <KipIngram   > POUNDS.
2021-06-20 13:40:35 <KipIngram   > Thank god...
2021-06-20 13:43:22 <KipIngram   > So last winter we had that god awful cold snap, and everyone lost their electricity.
2021-06-20 13:43:57 <KipIngram   > Now we're having this hot spell, and sure enough a few days ago the "authorities" requested that everyone conserve electricity.  :-|
2021-06-20 13:44:23 <KipIngram   > Those guys have always bragged about how "Texas has its own independent power grid."  Well, given how the winter went I don't think they have anything to brag about.
2021-06-20 13:44:28 <KipIngram   > They totally screwed the pooch.
2021-06-20 13:45:17 <KipIngram   > After the freeze I said I was going to wait for summer and then shop for a generator - I probably ought to start looking around for that now.
2021-06-20 13:45:31 <KipIngram   > Immediately after the freeze was a bad time - it was very much a seller's market then.
2021-06-20 13:47:13 <siraben     > wasn't Texas freezing a few months ago, now it's under a sever heatwave?
2021-06-20 13:47:17 <siraben     > severe*
2021-06-20 13:47:47 <siraben     > oh just read the chat, yeah the weather's crazy these days
2021-06-20 16:33:47 <neuro`      > The standards don't dictate how the inner and outer interpreter should work right?
2021-06-20 16:34:55 <crc         > Not certified on the outer, but definitely not in the inner
2021-06-20 16:37:49 <brainfunnel > the standards are so surprising to me. they're like 80% optional word lists and only 20% standard lol.
2021-06-20 16:37:50 <neuro`      > Unrelated, I made a quick test with Z80 for direct, indirect and subroutine threaded code. It seems to be the subroutine method is faster than others at the cost of a bit increased c
2021-06-20 16:39:19 <neuro`      > After seeing the overhead of stack operations, I was having second thoughts about: "what about a Forth without stacks?" it made me giggle.
2021-06-20 16:39:36 <ApleG       > >I wrote a Forth that runs on the TI-84+ https://github.com/siraben/ti84-forth
2021-06-20 16:39:36 <ApleG       > This is actually what partially inspired me, I was meaning to start a fun project
2021-06-20 16:39:53 <ApleG       > Never realised you made an OS also, I thought I'd do :p
2021-06-20 16:40:11 <crc         > I've done direct and subroutine implementations; I prefer to use subroutine if code density isn't a concern as it allows for more flexibility in that you can easily inline machine code where it ma
2021-06-20 16:40:53 <ApleG       > siraben, the project is really cool but i personally dont find it interesting creating something already out there, any ideas for twists which I could add to it?
2021-06-20 16:41:44 <neuro`      > "inline machine code": that's what I was thinking too, and it overall seems to be simpler. But switching stack pointer between parameter and return stack is annoying.
2021-06-20 16:41:48 <brainfunnel > neuro`: wordless forth when
2021-06-20 16:41:51 <brainfunnel > whitespace w/ stacks
2021-06-20 16:45:22 <neuro`      > That sounds like it would be far from practically usefull, but Forth execution model without stack still somehow almost makes sense to me (not sure how exactly). Before I discovered
2021-06-20 16:45:55 <neuro`      > Even though I'm more at ease with using stack now, I figured it's more about how to avoid using stack when writing Forth.
2021-06-20 16:46:49 <neuro`      > Perhaps the stack is not at the center of what I find interesting about Forth, but I observe that it's the most frustrating and annoying, and also off-puttin gaspect of Forth for mos
2021-06-20 16:48:17 <brainfunnel > to me the stacks very logically follow from everything else about it. but I don't have much experience *using* it it's just conceptually balanced in my mind.
2021-06-20 16:50:50 <neuro`      > I like the low level simplicity of it, that it doesn't require layers and layers of abstraction and tooling and other peripheral software bloat to make useful things with a computer.
2021-06-20 16:53:58 <neuro`      > Not sure what date this is from, but this interview with Chuck Moore was nice to read: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/masterminds-of-programming/9780596801670/ch04.html
2021-06-20 16:56:01 <neuro`      > > "Chuck: I’ve never been in favor of software patents."
2021-06-20 16:56:37 <neuro`      > Funnily I came across a list of patents by Charles Moore when I was searching for efficient use of registers to emulate stack, and there were several patents.
2021-06-20 16:56:45 <neuro`      > Although I think they were hardware patents.
2021-06-20 16:58:09 <neuro`      > > Chuck: Compilers are probably the worst code ever written. They are written by someone who has never written a compiler before and will never do so again.
2021-06-20 16:59:30 <brainfunnel > chuck sure has some spicy programming opinions. like the stuff he wrote about being able to write a million line C program in only 1% of that in colorforth
2021-06-20 17:00:54 <neuro`      > I think he's making hidden/inside jokes sometimes, and doesn't care if the joke doesn't go across.
2021-06-20 17:01:47 <neuro`      > I wonder if that one was meant to include the lines of code required to make C compiler chain work (the c preprocessor, the compiler, the linker, etc...).
2021-06-20 17:02:26 <crc         > I think it's more in terms of precisely defining the problem, then solving just that
2021-06-20 17:02:37 <crc         > "Many simple programs encourage thoughtful design of each. And requiring perhaps only 1% the code that would otherwise be written."
2021-06-20 17:06:33 <neuro`      > I tend to agree with the compilers opinion. They are kind of like GUI systems, they require tons of code under the hood, so that the user (in the case of language compilers, the prog
2021-06-20 17:08:05 <brainfunnel > I like prefix and postfix a lot but the more I look at infix the less I like it lol
2021-06-20 17:08:36 <neuro`      > I read a paper on that topic recently, let me see if I can find it.
2021-06-20 17:09:35 <neuro`      > https://hashingit.com/elements/research-resources/1994-03-ForthStack.pdf
2021-06-20 17:10:26 <neuro`      > "The few remaining mathematical expressions— e.g., the quadratic formula—can be computed, but require a more processoriented description. In such a description, we must first mak
2021-06-20 17:10:26 <neuro`      > trivial task while greatly increasing the costs for everything else."
2021-06-20 17:10:34 <neuro`      > The last sentence was funny.
2021-06-20 17:15:11 <neuro`      > I was thinking of comparing the prefix, postfix and infix notation with respect to natural languages a few days ago. Incidentally my native language is postfix (like Forth), but Engl
2021-06-20 17:17:51 <neuro`      > But it's such a trivial problem that trying to solve this with the compiler/language is unnecessary complexity. All programmers get fluent with any syntax you throw at them. I think
2021-06-20 17:18:50 <neuro`      > s/any syntax/any of the three notations/
2021-06-20 17:46:55 <MrMobius    > ApleG, what about making a stack based OS like HP calculators have that runs on a TI?
2021-06-20 17:47:12 <ApleG       > I guess I can mess with the OS stuff
2021-06-20 19:04:32 <dave0       > maw
2021-06-20 19:30:29 <imode       > anybody seen the Uxn stuff by 100 rabbits?
2021-06-20 19:47:56 <crc         > I've looked at it a little
2021-06-20 22:14:02 <siraben     > > <ApleG> siraben, the project is really cool but i personally dont find it interesting creating something already out there, any ideas for twists which I could add to it?
2021-06-20 22:14:33 <siraben     > sure, you can build Forth programs on top of it, there's a bunch of interesting things that you can do with reading/writing RAM and the I/O port
2021-06-20 22:14:49 <siraben     > maybe a Forth in BASIC would be possible (but very slow)
2021-06-20 22:23:40 <crc         > the first Forth I wrote was in BASIC...
2021-06-20 22:54:01 <dave0       > maw
2021-06-20 22:58:04 <crc         > maw
2021-06-20 23:52:13 <siraben     > crc: haha
2021-06-20 23:52:28 <siraben     > TI-BASIC is terrible though
2021-06-20 23:53:51 <crc         > I had a ti83 in college, but didn't do much coding on it
2021-06-20 23:54:35 <siraben     > The TI-84+ is the only 8-bit system I've programmed on