2022-01-17 07:36:14 <veltas      > https://www.zazzle.co.uk/z/aizihl1d
2022-01-17 07:37:00 <boru        > A bit spendy.
2022-01-17 07:39:17 <boru        > Though I think there is a deficit of Forth mugs out there in the world.
2022-01-17 07:44:33 <veltas      > I don't think there are any, I just made that because I wanted the iconic WASHER on a mug
2022-01-17 07:44:57 <veltas      > I wasn't sure if I wanted the one-liner in Starting FORTH or the more fleshed out version, decided the fleshed-out one looks better
2022-01-17 07:45:28 <veltas      > Otherwise it's stretched across the whole thing and it just looks like a printing mistake
2022-01-17 07:46:11 <veltas      > I'm not signed up to collect commission on that because I don't consider myself as having the rights, someone else is welcome to 'sell' the mugs if they think they are more suited
2022-01-17 07:46:21 <veltas      > Although both me and FORTH Inc might have something to say about it
2022-01-17 07:47:10 <boru        > I'd buy one with coffeemaker.4th on it.
2022-01-17 07:50:34 <veltas      > That website's relatively easy to use, just select a courier font and left alignment
2022-01-17 07:51:12 <boru        > My problem with those sites is that the mugs are crap. Finding a good mug to start with is the difficult part.
2022-01-17 07:51:44 <veltas      > I'll report back on the quality when I receive it, I think the one on my desk is from there and it's absolutely fine
2022-01-17 07:52:49 <veltas      > Not sure what marks a mug as 'crap', I chose a larger design because I don't like tiny mugs, and it's the two-tone one because I like having a black mug interior (looks nice for longer, stains are less noticeable)
2022-01-17 07:52:52 <boru        > I'm picky when it comes to mugs is all. The type of lip, wall width, handle size etc.
2022-01-17 07:53:09 <veltas      > Yep you do sound picky :P
2022-01-17 07:53:15 <boru        > And ceramic!
2022-01-17 07:53:17 <veltas      > They've got a few mug bases you can choose from
2022-01-17 07:53:21 <boru        > 
ACTION chuckles.

2022-01-17 07:53:38 <veltas      > My favourite mug was a promotional IBM mug I got that was made of glass
2022-01-17 07:53:54 <veltas      > It looked black/matte and had glossy IBM logos on the outside, glossy on inside
2022-01-17 07:54:03 <boru        > I had a favourite mug for tea and one for coffee for years, but my other half broke them both.
2022-01-17 07:54:05 <veltas      > And was really hard and survived dropping well
2022-01-17 07:54:13 <boru        > Oh, nice.
2022-01-17 07:54:13 <veltas      > My fiancee destroyed it of course :(
2022-01-17 07:54:26 <veltas      > Dropped it in kitchen once and it shattered into a million pieces
2022-01-17 07:54:27 <boru        > I have a few corporate mugs like that as well.
2022-01-17 07:54:39 <boru        > Including a HP calculator mug like the hats they had in the 90s.
2022-01-17 07:54:44 <veltas      > Nice
2022-01-17 07:54:57 <veltas      > Anyway, looking forward to a FORTHy piece of art on my desk
2022-01-17 07:55:03 <boru        > Then Anritsu, Agilent, Qualcomm, N other electronics companies...
2022-01-17 07:55:12 <boru        > Yeah, good call.
2022-01-17 07:55:14 <veltas      > I'll send pictures when it's done
2022-01-17 07:55:20 <boru        > Do, indeed.
2022-01-17 07:57:19 <veltas      > What would actually be better but I can't be bothered to do it right is to take a really high res scan of the washing machine drawing from Starting FORTH and put that on there as well
2022-01-17 08:02:43 <boru        > Would be fairly simple to draw yourself, either.
2022-01-17 08:22:54 <veltas      > I'm not an artiste like Brodie
2022-01-17 08:30:21 <boru        > That's pushing it, but I guess it's a part of the book's charm.
2022-01-17 09:44:32 <veltas      > I think the illustrations are good!
2022-01-17 09:46:41 <boru        > It gives the book soul, I'll give it that.
2022-01-17 09:50:48 <veltas      > Go look at Learn You a Haskell and tell me Brodie's art isn't good :P
2022-01-17 09:50:54 <f-a         > haha
2022-01-17 09:51:04 <f-a         > LYAH ain’t bad either, a bit postmodernist xD
2022-01-17 09:51:21 <boru        > JFC, is that for infant children?
2022-01-17 09:51:39 <boru        > It makes Pointers with Binky look good.
2022-01-17 09:52:25 <boru        > For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VnDaHBi8dM
2022-01-17 09:52:43 <veltas      > f-a: postmodernist i.e. 'objectively bad so I have to redefine good and bad to excuse myself'
2022-01-17 09:52:55 <veltas      > I am kidding I don't even know what postmodernist means
2022-01-17 09:53:15 <boru        > It's an art movement.
2022-01-17 09:53:44 <boru        > Well, cultural movement, I guess you could say.
2022-01-17 09:54:14 <veltas      > I should ask Brodie to do a logo for my upcoming FORTH
2022-01-17 09:55:24 <boru        > "Oh sure, here you go: N O"
2022-01-17 09:58:03 <f-a         > veltas: I was ofc j/k, postmodernist is a very milquetoast “rebel” art movement. But for sure I can say this: many people can sketch and draw ok, Brodie has something more
2022-01-17 09:58:19 <f-a         > his “swap” double headed dragon was so cosy
2022-01-17 09:58:47 <f-a         > and perfectly drawn in various poses during the action
2022-01-17 09:58:55 <f-a         > so clap clap to mr. B
2022-01-17 10:02:27 <veltas      > boru: I might have to pay him
2022-01-17 10:02:59 <veltas      > f-a: Yeah I do think boru is being a bit too critical, I couldn't do better than Brodie but then again I'm not an illustrator
2022-01-17 10:03:43 <f-a         > it looks like a deceptively simple job
2022-01-17 10:04:01 <veltas      > Starting FORTH is underappreciated in every way
2022-01-17 10:04:11 <shtumf[m]   >   its connected with the text, I mean the graphics are connecting the text .... so this makes the book a joy to read and easier to learn from the book ... like remembering stuff.....I m a beginner but I must admit that I like reading the book if it contains graphics, that actualy help me alot to with undestand what am I reading..
2022-01-17 10:04:31 <f-a         > yeah the graphics are well integrated
2022-01-17 10:04:36 <f-a         > like an illustrated book
2022-01-17 10:04:39 <boru        > Don't misconstrue; I do appreciate Starting Forth. I have an original print copy here on my shelf beside me.
2022-01-17 10:04:41 <veltas      > Yeah and the graphics are quite good, i.e. Learn You a Haskell's graphics actually put me off because they are horrid
2022-01-17 10:04:52 <veltas      > boru: Nice, sorry not intentional!
2022-01-17 10:04:54 <boru        > I thought that haskell book art is an abomination. Brodie's art is quaint.
2022-01-17 10:05:23 <veltas      > I find a lot of art that's 'modern' or anything later is almost like it's attempting to provoke negative basic emotions from human beings
2022-01-17 10:05:36 <veltas      > I don't like stuff like that
2022-01-17 10:06:07 <veltas      > Architectural eyesores the worst offenders
2022-01-17 10:06:25 <veltas      > and public art scultures
2022-01-17 10:08:05 <boru        > I'm with you there.
2022-01-17 10:09:07 <f-a         > slowly slowly things are changing
2022-01-17 10:09:20 <f-a         > the “novelty for novelty’s sake” is coming to an end
2022-01-17 10:11:47 <veltas      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(installation)
2022-01-17 10:12:48 <f-a         > yeah I recall that horror
2022-01-17 10:16:20 <veltas      > It's all about offending the sensibility of the middle class... and actually just all normal humans except decadent mostly middle and upper class insane people and paedophiles
2022-01-17 10:17:21 <veltas      > Where prominant artists decide it is a good idea to use their fame/clout to put giant sculptures of sex toys in public
2022-01-17 10:18:02 <f-a         > I raged too, but then I realise by raging I give them exposure
2022-01-17 10:18:31 <f-a         > so as now I always pick «good» stuff and illustrate my thought with good examples
2022-01-17 10:19:28 <veltas      > I'm not raging I'm just pointing out that the movement is shallow and anti-social
2022-01-17 10:20:07 <f-a         > it is, it is, hence why positive contemporary architecture/sculpture/poetry is needed
2022-01-17 10:20:21 <veltas      > I suppose not much needs to be explained, any normal human being looks at their art and ... a picture is a thousand words
2022-01-17 10:20:37 <veltas      > The problem is we're all subjected to it, I would hate living near that
2022-01-17 10:43:35 <lagash      > veltas: I tend to think that about most "post-modern" art sculptures, the only exception I have is for kinetic art, which I find fascinating
2022-01-17 10:44:01 <veltas      > If it's interesting/cool then that's fine
2022-01-17 10:44:26 <veltas      > I just mean the giant "buttplug" is sort of offensive to essential human spirit....
2022-01-17 10:48:12 <lagash      > I find the bookmark where I last left off Starting FORTH.. apparently I almost finished it, but not quite..
2022-01-17 10:48:18 <lagash      > *found
2022-01-17 10:48:49 <veltas      > The whole thing is good, unless you hate fixed point in which case one chapter is a bit irrelevant
2022-01-17 10:50:58 <lagash      > I don't know, the editor commands part looked almost superfluous.
2022-01-17 10:51:25 <lagash      > It did introduce the concept of blocks though.
2022-01-17 10:53:48 <veltas      > Oh yeah that too ol
2022-01-17 10:53:49 <veltas      > lol*
2022-01-17 10:54:07 <veltas      > The editor stuff is interesting but I'm probably going to go vi-like if I write an editor
2022-01-17 10:57:55 <lagash      > Not ed? :P
2022-01-17 10:58:01 <lagash      > "Greatest editor ever!"
2022-01-17 10:59:27 <veltas      > lagash: I used ed full time at work once for a couple days
2022-01-17 10:59:39 <veltas      > It's amazing what you can do with it, but it does get in the way of productivity/thinking
2022-01-17 11:00:00 <veltas      > And that's why I wouldn't subject line-based editors on anyone, if I wouldn't use it I don't want to write it
2022-01-17 11:00:10 <veltas      > ed's better than other line editors I've used
2022-01-17 11:05:29 <lagash      > Yeah they were good back in the ol' days of slow modems and stuff..
2022-01-17 11:06:14 <joe9        > veltas: Just curious on what you are using ed so frequently for?
2022-01-17 11:06:33 <joe9        > unless everything is so horribly down, ed seems mostly not needed.
2022-01-17 11:06:41 <joe9        > in my use these days.
2022-01-17 11:06:43 <veltas      > I used it at work a couple days to learn how it works
2022-01-17 11:06:54 <joe9        > oh, ok.
2022-01-17 11:06:55 <veltas      > That's it, no use case really, education
2022-01-17 11:06:59 <veltas      > I also used ex-vi
2022-01-17 11:07:30 <veltas      > ex-vi is almost the same as using vim, but I like vim buffers too much
2022-01-17 11:07:35 <joe9        > makes sense. For me, with vi's small footprint on OpenBSD, I have not touched ed in a while.
2022-01-17 11:08:00 <veltas      > I don't know what kind of vi is on OpenBSD
2022-01-17 11:08:14 <joe9        > veltas: if you are into the editor, have you tried sam or acme?
2022-01-17 11:08:20 <veltas      > Nope
2022-01-17 11:08:33 <veltas      > Is that worth trying?
2022-01-17 11:08:40 <joe9        > try them. Sam's sre paper is worth reading.
2022-01-17 11:08:47 <joe9        > try the paper first
2022-01-17 11:08:53 <veltas      > I know Bjarne Stroustrup likes it
2022-01-17 11:08:58 <joe9        > before trying the editor
2022-01-17 11:09:13 <veltas      > Does it have buffers?
2022-01-17 11:09:16 <joe9        > the paper is definitely worth a read
2022-01-17 11:09:32 <joe9        > it has all and more, imho.
2022-01-17 11:10:05 <veltas      > Can you cycle forward and backward through movement history?
2022-01-17 11:10:13 <joe9        > but, an editor is a personal choice..
2022-01-17 11:10:48 <veltas      > That's a crucial time saving feature for me at work, vim has it and like no other editors have it (emacs has it, I would hope some of the 'cool' IDEs have it too)
2022-01-17 11:10:51 <joe9        > veltas: i used to be a heavy vim user, then evil, then sam/acme and I am happy with it.
2022-01-17 11:11:22 <veltas      > CTRL+o and CTRL+i I'm talking about, not sure what they're called
2022-01-17 11:11:47 <veltas      > I'm just assuming sam supports tags because that's even in ex-vi
2022-01-17 11:12:23 <joe9        > it is a different way of thinking but is more natural than all the keyboard driven stuff.
2022-01-17 11:12:38 <lagash      > I think now's a perfect time to plug MWL's Ed Mastery: Manly McManface edition :)
2022-01-17 11:12:46 <lagash      > https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools
2022-01-17 11:13:48 <veltas      > vim users need to read this https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Jumping_to_previously_visited_locations#Using_a_jump_list
2022-01-17 11:13:56 <veltas      > If you haven't already familiarised yourself with it
2022-01-17 11:14:03 <veltas      > And learn about tags if you haven't already
2022-01-17 11:20:36 <veltas      > lagash: I know that ed book is a joke, but the old (and new) ed man pages are totally sufficient for mastering ed
2022-01-17 11:21:31 <veltas      > open mode is the best line editor I've used, people don't even realise it exists. It's available in vim and most vi's.
2022-01-17 11:28:17 <lagash      > veltas: hmm? open mode?
2022-01-17 11:28:33 <lagash      > I've heard of insert and normal mode..
2022-01-17 11:29:02 <veltas      > There's also ex mode and open mode
2022-01-17 11:29:11 <veltas      > ex mode is usually entered by mistake by pressing Q
2022-01-17 11:29:46 <veltas      > open mode is like a cross between the two, you have the normal mode key bindings, can enter insert mode, but one line is displayed at a time
2022-01-17 11:30:27 <veltas      > I think it's entered with :open
2022-01-17 11:30:34 <veltas      > Might have to do it from the ex prompt
2022-01-17 11:35:28 <lagash      > :open just opens a file no?
2022-01-17 11:36:33 <veltas      > Nope
2022-01-17 11:38:08 <veltas      > It might not be in vim, maybe it's in your vi though
2022-01-17 11:39:50 <veltas      > Yeah in vim help it says it's not supported, and just opens in normal visual mode
2022-01-17 11:44:17 <lagash      > Meh I'll just use ed if I need a line editor
2022-01-17 11:52:03 <MrMobius    > i use vim but still havent figured out how to use less keystrokes than notepad++
2022-01-17 12:21:29 <lagash      > MrMobius: you might want to look into NeoVim, I like it better than Vim or vi for programming, etc
2022-01-17 12:53:58 <lagash      > Quick question: I'm glancing through Starting FORTH and it uses NOT but Gforth doesn't have that, what do I use instead? INVERT?
2022-01-17 12:54:39 <lagash      > Is NOT not (ha) part of a standard or something?
2022-01-17 13:38:19 <veltas      > MrMobius: Less keystrokes for what? Have you got an example?
2022-01-17 13:38:23 <pao13[m]    > not is basically the same thing as 0=
2022-01-17 13:38:36 <veltas      > On some FORTHs NOT is INVERT
2022-01-17 13:38:49 <veltas      > That's why ANS FORTH calls them 0= and INVERT
2022-01-17 13:39:03 <eris[m]11   > so, old starting forth isnt written for ans
2022-01-17 13:39:07 <veltas      > To avoid confusion or breaking compatibility with FORTHs that already decided what they want NOT to do
2022-01-17 13:39:14 <eris[m]11   > there's a rewritten version on the uhhh
2022-01-17 13:39:17 <eris[m]11   > forth dot org?
2022-01-17 13:39:20 <veltas      > forth.com
2022-01-17 13:39:24 <eris[m]11   > ohh
2022-01-17 13:39:30 <veltas      > There's a second edition in print as well
2022-01-17 13:39:33 <eris[m]11   > some people prefer the old version
2022-01-17 13:39:36 <veltas      > which is what someone got me
2022-01-17 13:39:38 <eris[m]11   > oh cool
2022-01-17 13:39:42 <veltas      > The one on the web is the worst version
2022-01-17 13:39:52 <veltas      > Second edition in print I believe is ANS
2022-01-17 13:39:59 <eris[m]11   > i have a copy of thinking forth
2022-01-17 13:40:03 <eris[m]11   > ahhh
2022-01-17 13:40:08 <eris[m]11   > makes sense
2022-01-17 13:40:22 <veltas      > The only issue with the web version is that apparently it's inconsistent, like the exercise mentions a word that's not introduced yet etc
2022-01-17 13:41:11 <veltas      > The thing is, the incompatibilities in Starting FORTH 1st ed are not that massive, I think it's fine to read, I might provide a full list of ANS supplements/changes for the words one day
2022-01-17 13:41:27 <eris[m]11   > mhm
2022-01-17 13:46:51 <veltas      > Might as well do it while I'm waiting for this bloody phonecall
2022-01-17 15:53:59 <remexre     > is there a nice hashtable interface for forth?
2022-01-17 15:55:36 <remexre     > not looking for an implementation so much as an API people find convenient for string-key or cell-key hashtables
2022-01-17 15:57:01 <lagash      > From https://forth-standard.org/standard/foreword: "The ANS Forth Standard was published in 1994[1] and was adopted as an international standard in 1997[2]." Question: are the two basically the same thing?
2022-01-17 15:57:29 <remexre     > 3 years of deliberation and editing, maybe?
2022-01-17 15:57:34 <veltas      > lagash: Yes
2022-01-17 15:58:03 <veltas      > It's like the difference between ANSI C 89 and ISO C 90
2022-01-17 15:58:15 <remexre     > oh you mean the specs wording, not the events lol
2022-01-17 16:07:22 <lagash      > Figured as much :)
2022-01-17 16:24:28 <lagash      > : DROP-ALL ( i*x -- )   DEPTH 0 ?DO DROP LOOP ; is properly indented and everything, right?
2022-01-17 16:53:46 <veltas      > I'd do 2 spaces before DEPTH
2022-01-17 16:53:47 <veltas      > Not 1
2022-01-17 16:54:10 <veltas      > And I don't put "--" if there's nothing left on the stack after
2022-01-17 16:55:20 <veltas      > I mean "not 3"
2022-01-17 16:55:28 <veltas      > : drop-all ( ...)  depth 0 ?do drop loop ;  \ is how I would write this
2022-01-17 16:56:06 <veltas      > There are no rules though
2022-01-17 17:05:32 <lagash      > The only style guide I could quickly find is http://forth.org/forth_coding.html and they mentioned 3 spaces, but yeah, no hard rules
2022-01-17 17:28:31 <veltas      > He also uses 3 dashes
2022-01-17 17:28:39 <veltas      > It's a bit brutalist for my taste
2022-01-17 17:40:06 <lagash      > "Is that an em-dash or an en-dash?"
2022-01-17 17:41:20 <veltas      > I mean hyphen
2022-01-17 17:41:26 <veltas      > But seriously fuck you :P
2022-01-17 17:43:42 <lagash      > I wouldn't say I'm an LaTeX expert (yet) but typography can be fun (sometimes) :P
2022-01-17 17:49:01 <veltas      > Try troff
2022-01-17 17:49:56 <veltas      > One of the things I'd like to do is write some typography macros in forth
2022-01-17 17:55:10 <lagash      > I've seen some troff but haven't played with it much (yet)
2022-01-17 17:56:03 <veltas      > LaTeX and troff feel quite similar to me, LaTeX just has a bigger userbase and is like 100 times larger and slower
2022-01-17 17:56:13 <veltas      > And bigger ecosystem
2022-01-17 17:57:19 <lagash      > Ecosystem is important yeah
2022-01-17 17:58:32 <veltas      > Really depends
2022-01-17 17:59:05 <veltas      > You can do anything in either if you know what you're doing and are prepared to write your own macros...
2022-01-17 17:59:16 <veltas      > In theory that shouldn't even that hard!
2022-01-17 18:04:47 <lagash      > Have you ever typeset and published a book before? lol
2022-01-17 18:05:30 <veltas      > This is why I was tempted to write some stuff myself for this
2022-01-17 18:07:06 <lagash      > Well if you ever typeset a reasonably complex book in troff let me know, I'll probably buy a copy even if I don't read it!
2022-01-17 18:07:26 <lagash      > You use groff?
2022-01-17 18:07:28 <veltas      > K&R C was typeset in troff
2022-01-17 18:07:33 <veltas      > Or nroff I think
2022-01-17 18:07:42 <veltas      > Lots of books have been....
2022-01-17 18:08:04 <veltas      > Yeah I use groff
2022-01-17 18:08:51 <lagash      > Well I'm dealing with dual-language critical editions so...
2022-01-17 18:10:38 <veltas      > So...?
2022-01-17 18:11:55 <lagash      > So? It's hard enough doing it with LaTeX and its ecosystem..
2022-01-17 18:12:27 <veltas      > I don't really understand how it being dual language affects it, you can write multiple languages with either right?
2022-01-17 18:12:58 <lagash      > Dual language as in, one language on one side of the page, the other on the other, aligned by paragraphs.
2022-01-17 18:13:15 <veltas      > Interesting
2022-01-17 18:13:39 <lagash      > Add footnotes, illustrations, diagrams, footnotes of footnotes, and it's... it's a lot.
2022-01-17 18:13:46 <veltas      > Yeah you can do that in troff, not sure how easy it is with i.e. ms but I'm sure #nroff could make it happen
2022-01-17 18:13:50 <veltas      > Yeah all that stuff too
2022-01-17 18:14:08 <lagash      > I'll take a look, but I doubt it'll be easier.
2022-01-17 18:14:30 <veltas      > Hmmm not sure about easier right half way through a book but it's worth trying out at some point
2022-01-17 18:15:00 <veltas      > There are the mom macros as well which are targetted at writing books, but IMO they look a little bit too automated
2022-01-17 18:15:07 <veltas      > Like aimed at novellists more than technical books
2022-01-17 18:15:58 <lagash      > Yeah I saw something about mom..
2022-01-17 18:20:48 <lagash      > Huh, well, I do like the CAPITALIZED commands, reminds me of.. FORTH :P
2022-01-17 18:22:53 <joe9        > veltas, I am looking to write some stuff (book format) in troff too.
2022-01-17 18:23:11 <joe9        > it is hard to find a decent tutorial-like intro to troff.
2022-01-17 18:23:21 <veltas      > An elegant weapon, for a more civilised age
2022-01-17 18:23:23 <joe9        > just want to check if there is a reference that you tend to use.
2022-01-17 18:23:29 <lagash      > No, that's Lisp!
2022-01-17 18:23:43 <joe9        > I have used troff and am happy with it.
2022-01-17 18:23:50 <joe9        > it does what I want it to do.
2022-01-17 18:23:50 <veltas      > I read GNU troff's manual, especially the ms manual, played around, searched stuff
2022-01-17 18:23:59 <joe9        > ok, thanks.
2022-01-17 18:23:59 <veltas      > There's also https://www.troff.org/54.pdf
2022-01-17 18:24:37 <veltas      > It's hard to find good info on it, you are going to be googling a lot, ask on the IRC channel
2022-01-17 18:25:22 <veltas      > There's #groff on liberchat
2022-01-17 18:25:33 <veltas      > I'm sure there are others, and mailing lists
2022-01-17 18:25:34 <joe9        > yes, that is what I find too. hard to find good material on troff.
2022-01-17 18:25:42 <veltas      > Very difficult
2022-01-17 18:25:44 <veltas      > Adds to the fun
2022-01-17 18:25:55 <veltas      > Old manual PDFs / PSs, and scans are good
2022-01-17 18:25:58 <lagash      > veltas: uh, alis doesn't appear to show groff or troff..
2022-01-17 18:26:52 <lagash      > and yeah, it definitely appears... niche... to even geeks
2022-01-17 18:26:59 <veltas      > Like FORTH!
2022-01-17 18:27:01 <lagash      > huh, I might actually like this, who knows!
2022-01-17 18:27:40 <veltas      > I'll get you all using ed soon
2022-01-17 18:27:58 <veltas      > For recreational use only don't worry
2022-01-17 18:28:56 <lagash      > joe9: also this apparently https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/utp/
2022-01-17 18:29:05 <lagash      > I already had it in my (very large) reading list..
2022-01-17 18:29:22 <joe9        > no, sam/acme are an upgrade to ed.
2022-01-17 18:29:33 <veltas      > Yes actually the oreilly book was useful too I think
2022-01-17 18:29:42 <veltas      > I'm afraid I don't have any nice troff examples on my laptop, all my work seems to be on my other machine
2022-01-17 18:30:25 <veltas      > Adobe made a PDF macro set for troff that's sort of like an extension to ms that lets you build PDF links and customise the summary settings
2022-01-17 18:31:18 <lagash      > veltas: Adobe, eh? I bet it isn't open-source..
2022-01-17 18:31:45 <veltas      > If someone gets into troff ask me and I'll dig out what I know in the style of Sir Leigh Teabing summarising his hunt for the Holy Grail
2022-01-17 18:32:07 <joe9        > veltas: I need the troff stuff. If you can find it, it would be helpful.
2022-01-17 18:32:09 <lagash      > joe9: see also https://www.troff.org/books.html
2022-01-17 18:32:18 <lagash      > joe9: do you know (La)TeX?
2022-01-17 18:32:38 <joe9        > yeah, I played with latex and docbook and I am not going back to them.
2022-01-17 18:32:43 <veltas      > LaTeX is kind of like ms+equ and a couple other things
2022-01-17 18:32:58 <joe9        > s/played/used/
2022-01-17 18:33:13 <joe9        > they are a mess. bloated stuff, especially docbook.
2022-01-17 18:33:32 <remexre     > nothing's worse than texinfo tho...
2022-01-17 18:34:39 <veltas      > joe9: Tea, or coffee?
2022-01-17 18:35:30 <remexre     > tbh I'd be interested to; EG w/ L
2022-01-17 18:35:32 <lagash      > Dang, they don't list a single book with its troff source available... https://www.troff.org/pubs.html
2022-01-17 18:35:32 <remexre     > too*
2022-01-17 18:37:36 <joe9        > logash, that is a good list. Have you read any of them? Any recommendations among those.
2022-01-17 18:37:56 <lagash      > joe9: no, I haven't touched troff yet, I'm just Googlin' shit, lol
2022-01-17 18:38:01 <veltas      > https://opensource.apple.com/source/groff/groff-31/groff/contrib/pdfmark/pdfroff.man.auto.html
2022-01-17 18:38:05 <f-a         > joe9: what if not latex then?
2022-01-17 18:38:21 <veltas      > Just google troff books
2022-01-17 18:38:24 <joe9        > I am happy with troff macros.
2022-01-17 18:38:46 <veltas      > Don't expect google to help with troff stuff directly, but try anyway
2022-01-17 18:38:52 <veltas      > Sometimes you'll get lucky
2022-01-17 18:39:24 <veltas      > troff is somewhere far down the iceburg meme picture in terms of searchability
2022-01-17 18:40:27 <joe9        > Unix Document Processing and Typesetting, B. Srinivasan. seems to be highly recommended.
2022-01-17 18:41:58 <veltas      > joe9: Add to bookmarks https://pipeline.lbl.gov/code/3rd_party/licenses.win/groff/1.19.2/pdf/pdfmark.pdf
2022-01-17 18:43:34 <veltas      > The C standard was written in troff too, but recently committee rewrote in LaTeX because they couldn't figure it out lol
2022-01-17 18:43:43 <veltas      > Says a lot...
2022-01-17 18:44:02 <lagash      > "OpenBSD has replaced groff with mandoc in the base install, since their 4.9 release."
2022-01-17 18:44:25 <veltas      > Yeah troff is mostly used for generating man pages
2022-01-17 18:44:39 <veltas      > On a UNIXy system these days that is the main use
2022-01-17 18:47:19 <lagash      > Any reason why www.groff-wiki.info has been down for some time? Was it merged somewhere else, etc?
2022-01-17 18:48:53 <lagash      > And by some time I suppose that means a decade, lol
2022-01-17 18:54:03 <veltas      > service guarantees citizenship
2022-01-17 20:53:59 <a88         > I normally see the abbreviation cfa to indicate one of the fields of  words in the dictionary, what is its meaning?
2022-01-17 21:02:26 <remexre     > code field address
2022-01-17 21:02:30 <remexre     > a88:
2022-01-17 22:07:22 <a88         > thanks, I figured it was the xt but didn't know the meaning of the abbreviation. Appreciate your answer.
2022-01-17 22:50:20 <lagash      > Anyone know of an interactive fiction engine written in FORTH? The closest thing I've found was https://www.ifwiki.org/TAVERN but it's only "Forth-like" if even that..
2022-01-17 22:51:05 <tangentstorm> i seem to recall retroforth has a small example game
2022-01-17 22:51:17 <tangentstorm> at least retro 10
2022-01-17 22:51:41 <lagash      > By small we talking dunnet-size?
2022-01-17 22:52:24 <lagash      > Aha! "added fiction' library for simple interactive fiction games"
2022-01-17 22:53:38 <tangentstorm> very very small https://github.com/sabren/reconciled/blob/0cbf3310545193903b9a818511fcb05e4b7082f8/vend/retro-11.4/examples/games/cloak-of-darkness.rx
2022-01-17 22:53:58 <tangentstorm> oh yeah i guess fiction is the library.
2022-01-17 22:54:16 <tangentstorm> this fork is way way old. just wasn't sure if it was still in the distro.
2022-01-17 22:55:14 <lagash      > that link doesn't work for me
2022-01-17 22:58:49 <lagash      > Cloak of Darkness... sounds familiar.. isn't that just a CYOA??
2022-01-17 23:01:03 <lagash      > https://ifwiki.org/index.php/Cloak_of_Darkness <--- ha, author's surname is Firth :)
2022-01-17 23:01:44 <lagash      > I should add retroFORTH to the list sometime, maybe?
2022-01-17 23:08:56 <lagash      > Wait it's spelled Retro Forth isn't it.