2022-02-14 13:08:42 <joe9        >  how secure are forth systems?
2022-02-14 13:09:14 <eris[m]     > define secure and 'forth systems'
2022-02-14 13:09:18 <eris[m]     > ^^'
2022-02-14 13:09:22 <joe9        > without paging in-play, if someone can get access to an interpreter, they can read all the stuff, correct?
2022-02-14 13:10:17 <eris[m]     > again
2022-02-14 13:10:41 <eris[m]     > i dont know what you mean by secure and i dont know what you mean by all the stuff
2022-02-14 13:11:15 <joe9        > other process stacks, data, dictionary, etc..
2022-02-14 13:11:26 <eris[m]     > of the forth systems i know, you're meant to use the interpreter
2022-02-14 13:12:19 <eris[m]     > forth systems i know of dont have a strict set of process boundaries, but id like to see more modern ones
2022-02-14 13:13:00 <eris[m]     > if you want a secure system, go for like
2022-02-14 13:13:14 <eris[m]     > one of those fancy microkernels
2022-02-14 13:13:17 <joe9        > are there mechanisms to sandbox the interpreter to access only that process's stacks, memory, etc..
2022-02-14 13:13:20 <joe9        > ?
2022-02-14 13:13:43 <eris[m]     > again
2022-02-14 13:13:56 <eris[m]     > you're asking a question about something that doesnt exist in a general manner
2022-02-14 13:14:25 <eris[m]     > most forth operating systems i know of are old
2022-02-14 13:14:48 <eris[m]     > this means they have little to no memory protection or multitasking
2022-02-14 13:16:21 <MrMobius    > forth tends to be applied to a pretty narrow range of applications
2022-02-14 13:16:55 <MrMobius    > so we get people joining to ask if there is machine learning/facial recognition/TCP server packages, etc written in forth and the answer is usually no
2022-02-14 13:17:41 <eris[m]     > collapseOS is a 'forth system'
2022-02-14 13:18:08 <eris[m]     > it lacks sandboxing or memory protection; it runs on the z80, afterall
2022-02-14 13:18:21 <eris[m]     > colorforth PC also doesnt; runs on dos
2022-02-14 13:19:20 <eris[m]     > ITVc's 4os was the most likely candidate to have memory protection
2022-02-14 13:19:26 <eris[m]     > though i doubt it was strict
2022-02-14 13:20:49 <eris[m]     > nother x86 forth that didnt do memory management: polyforth
2022-02-14 13:22:51 <eris[m]     > theres definitely people who can answer this better than me
2022-02-14 17:21:53 <vms14       > oh is this dead?
2022-02-14 17:27:17 <eris[m]     > is it?
2022-02-14 17:29:11 <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION brings the shock paddles and declares "Clear!"

2022-02-14 17:29:30 <vms14       > :O
2022-02-14 17:29:44 <vms14       > some forthwrights appeared
2022-02-14 17:30:23 <vms14       > it is late to become a forthwright?
2022-02-14 17:30:32 <vms14       > I guess I want
2022-02-14 17:32:01 <vms14       > I suppose the requirement is to implement forth
2022-02-14 17:32:56 <vms14       > I'll make the dirtiest forth you can imagine
2022-02-14 17:41:29 <Zarutian_HTC> vms14: port eForth to some fantasy computer and you will learn a few things
2022-02-14 17:41:46 <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION looks at http://www.firmworks.com/www/traindoc.htm

2022-02-14 17:44:58 <vms14       > Zarutian_HTC: actually I come from lisp, and what I love from lisp is the metaprogramming ability it has
2022-02-14 17:46:02 <vms14       > some people recommended me twice to look at forth, and a guy not only recomended me forth if I like metaprogramming, but also recommended me thinking forth cause I always asked and show interest about stuff like the bottom up approach
2022-02-14 17:46:14 <Zarutian_HTC> vms14: interesting! and I know there is an old lisp in forth implementation somewhere
2022-02-14 17:46:33 <vms14       > and they kind of told me forth is the best for bottom up
2022-02-14 17:46:47 <Zarutian_HTC> it pretty much is
2022-02-14 17:47:19 <vms14       > so now I'm just looking at forth, I like the fact it takes stuff at reverse order because I always do things in reverse, so the language will understand me
2022-02-14 17:47:20 <vms14       > XD
2022-02-14 17:47:43 <Zarutian_HTC> some sort of Forth is usually among the first things brought up on new architectures
2022-02-14 17:48:03 <vms14       > also I see it's very easy to implement it and looks like a must do for learning forth properly
2022-02-14 17:48:23 <Zarutian_HTC> plus there are some forth inspired cpu arch out there
2022-02-14 17:49:13 <vms14       > I wonder if I'll end liking forth, do you think being metaprogramming the thing I like the most about programming will make me love forth?
2022-02-14 17:49:49 <vms14       > and about missing features, being so easy to implement I can put it on top of any programming language and even provide ways for ffi
2022-02-14 17:49:55 <Zarutian_HTC> most likely as you can easily define new constructs in forth
2022-02-14 17:50:14 <Zarutian_HTC> be it on read level or controflow level
2022-02-14 17:51:34 <vms14       > and it's kind of strange because I think my real vocation is embedded systems
2022-02-14 17:52:05 <vms14       > I know nothing about, but they fascinate me
2022-02-14 17:52:59 <vms14       > I know some programming stuff and never went to hardware, my goal was always to get into the line which separes hardware from software, and forth seems like it can get me into this stuff
2022-02-14 17:53:41 <vms14       > yet all my "experience" is with software and I have to learn asm
2022-02-14 18:00:30 <vms14       > Zarutian_HTC: about using forth as a layer I've heard a guy wrote a forth to write a prolog in it
2022-02-14 18:01:03 <remexre     > Yeah, I have a book about that
2022-02-14 18:01:12 <remexre     > "Designing Personal Expert Systems" or something?
2022-02-14 18:52:09 <vms14       > remexre: it seems https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5996510
2022-02-14 18:54:11 <remexre     > yep, that's it
2022-02-14 19:16:29 <vms14       > how is the forth community lately?
2022-02-14 19:17:00 <vms14       > there is only this irc channel?
2022-02-14 19:31:35 <crc         > There's also #retro for my forth, a community on facebook with monthly zoom meetings and discussions; there's /r/forth on reddit, and on the hackint irc network, #mecrisp (mostly for embedded development
2022-02-14 19:32:45 <crc         > a comp.lang.forth usenet group also exists, but was heavily occupied by trolls when I last looked at it
2022-02-14 19:33:57 <crc         > 8th (a commercial system) has its own forums at https://8th-dev.com/forum/
2022-02-14 19:36:34 <crc         > also https://github.com/ForthHub/discussion on github, using the issue tracker as a discussion system
2022-02-14 19:51:05 <vms14       > crc saw 8th mentioned in reddit didn't know it was commercial
2022-02-14 19:51:48 <vms14       > it seems people use gforth, I have pforth installed instead, idk if I'll miss some stuff
2022-02-14 19:52:45 <vms14       > I have to learn so I'd like to start making simple stuff like a cgi script or unix scripts
2022-02-14 19:54:47 <vms14       > I actually have to see if I'll really like forth, and the only way is to learn and use it
2022-02-14 19:55:00 <vms14       > I somehow like it
2022-02-14 19:55:54 <vms14       > I know it's kind of baremetal but knowing is so easy to implement I don't care much as I could implement it on top of other langs
2022-02-14 20:00:13 <vms14       > also you can implement the needed primitives and the rest in forth code, which means it will easy to port to other machines
2022-02-14 20:02:37 <vms14       > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrE2ZGe-rs I'm looking at this
2022-02-14 20:02:50 <vms14       > I understand nothing but I like it