2022-02-18 15:22:44 <vms14       > KipIngram: just saw your answer in the log
2022-02-18 15:23:14 <vms14       > there is a book/post similar to the forth fundamentals book?
2022-02-18 15:26:32 <vms14       > lagash: it's likely you'll have to write your forth in java/kotlin to have a forth able to let you make android applications
2022-02-18 15:27:03 <vms14       > it's one of my goals btw once I'll be sure I like forth
2022-02-18 15:28:09 <vms14       > I've tried with android sdk and jni, you can add ffi bindings of java trough c, but it's not nice
2022-02-18 15:28:23 <lagash      > vms14: Gforth supports Android, I also looked into 4tH, but besides net2o I haven't seen anything substantial yet..
2022-02-18 15:28:24 <vms14       > the best approach seems to make a forth interpreter in java/kotlin
2022-02-18 15:28:40 <vms14       > lagash: supports android, but has bindings to create applications?
2022-02-18 15:29:02 <vms14       > they seem to just have compiled it and run, (I have it installed in my phone)
2022-02-18 15:29:17 <lagash      > vms14: there already is net2o, which is an app, and there are a few demos in the source, like a camera recording app that I can't get working on Android 10..
2022-02-18 15:29:22 <vms14       > also I see once you install it installs some other apps
2022-02-18 15:29:36 <vms14       > oh
2022-02-18 15:29:40 <vms14       > it's nice
2022-02-18 15:29:53 <vms14       > I got amused on how easy was to provide ffi in gforth
2022-02-18 15:30:27 <lagash      > I'll see how far I can get with this.
2022-02-18 15:30:49 <vms14       > https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Draw_a_pixel#Forth
2022-02-18 15:31:18 <vms14       > lagash: I also want to do stuff with forth in android
2022-02-18 15:31:22 <lagash      > 4tH has really nice bindings to Gtk I believe
2022-02-18 15:31:55 <lagash      > Supposedly 4tH comes with over 500 different libraries, although some of them only have one or two words, meh
2022-02-18 15:31:57 <vms14       > actually I think I'm coming to forth just because I want to put it in android
2022-02-18 15:32:26 <vms14       > I've put s7 scheme in android and was able to get a remote repl and to add a textview
2022-02-18 15:32:45 <vms14       > but the ffi is by using java jni trough c
2022-02-18 15:32:54 <lagash      > Scheme eh? I was hoping Clojure or Scala would get me a more lightweight experience but no luck with that so far
2022-02-18 15:33:07 <vms14       > an interpreter written in java/kotlin has much better ffi
2022-02-18 15:33:20 <vms14       > actually could just call the functions directly
2022-02-18 15:34:03 <lagash      > Played with Kawa yet?
2022-02-18 15:34:38 <vms14       > no
2022-02-18 15:34:43 <lagash      > I wanted to develop a J2ME game with it but then apparently it doesn't support something that old, not even its oldest release.
2022-02-18 15:34:47 <vms14       > I'm not a fan of scheme, but of common lisp
2022-02-18 15:34:56 <vms14       > s7 scheme is the only scheme I "like"
2022-02-18 15:35:10 <vms14       > it's two c files you just add to your code
2022-02-18 15:35:18 <vms14       > and it has some cl stuff
2022-02-18 15:35:37 <lagash      > https://www.mit.edu/afs.new/sipb/project/kawa/doc/kawa-tour.html
2022-02-18 15:35:47 <vms14       > lagash: still think if you want forth in android or X in android you'll have to roll your own
2022-02-18 15:35:56 <lagash      > I'm more of a CL fan myself
2022-02-18 15:36:03 <vms14       > I would like to, but first I have to understand forth
2022-02-18 15:36:15 <vms14       > lagash: s7 scheme has the format function and defmacro
2022-02-18 15:36:32 <vms14       > https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html
2022-02-18 15:36:46 <lagash      > Yes I was going to play around with s7 sometime
2022-02-18 15:36:50 <vms14       > oh
2022-02-18 15:37:17 <vms14       > I love common lisp, but the lack of libraries fucks me a bit
2022-02-18 15:37:40 <vms14       > so I liked s7 scheme, because it meant I could add whatever I need, and no dependency more than what I choose
2022-02-18 15:38:03 <vms14       > but it won't never "my" language and won't be as I'd like it to be
2022-02-18 15:38:20 <vms14       > and I won't make a scheme/lisp implementation as good as this one
2022-02-18 15:38:23 <lagash      > Have you heard of Nyxt? I'm no official developer, but sent a dozen or so patches already, it's like the Emacs of browsers, but in CL :)
2022-02-18 15:38:34 <vms14       > nope
2022-02-18 15:39:05 <vms14       > oh I think I saw it some time ago
2022-02-18 15:39:15 <vms14       > https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt
2022-02-18 15:40:00 <vms14       > problem is in NetBSD sbcl has no thread support
2022-02-18 15:40:36 <vms14       > so for example hunchentoot blocks once you start the server, so no realtime development and most libraries just don't work
2022-02-18 15:40:42 <lagash      > Oh no, a *BSD user! :P
2022-02-18 15:40:47 <vms14       > xd
2022-02-18 15:41:00 <lagash      > Have you tried other CL implementations? Or they too don't have threading?
2022-02-18 15:41:04 <vms14       > I'm just used to netbsd and now linux feels different
2022-02-18 15:41:08 <vms14       > they don't
2022-02-18 15:41:26 <vms14       > netbsd guys told me they're in contact with the ecl dev
2022-02-18 15:41:51 <vms14       > so if one implementation will have threads maybe will be ecl, btw ecl was compiled to android
2022-02-18 15:42:28 <vms14       > I don't know how to make a makefile to add it in android studio, but you can compile it without android studio
2022-02-18 15:42:39 <vms14       > https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt
2022-02-18 15:42:45 <vms14       > https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android
2022-02-18 15:42:46 <vms14       > xd
2022-02-18 15:43:08 <lagash      > I hate Android Studio. I'm sure most folks here will concur.
2022-02-18 15:43:35 <lagash      > I know at least one user got Nyxt working on Mobian on Pinephone.
2022-02-18 15:44:09 <vms14       > Now I'm looking at forth, people always told me about forth when I was asking about metaprogramming and bottom up
2022-02-18 15:44:35 <vms14       > I love common lisp just because the metaprogramming and it seems forth will make me happy too
2022-02-18 15:45:08 <lagash      > Have you seen LambdaNative? Saved it in my bookmarks, I think it's the best chance at Lisp-y apps in Android.
2022-02-18 15:45:42 <vms14       > I see also some posts of guys who liked forth at first but ended disliking it. For me I think I like forth because I like to reinvent the wheel and to build everything from scratch
2022-02-18 15:45:57 <f-a         > which post was that
2022-02-18 15:46:17 <f-a         > one of the plus of forth is the features/cost-of-implementation ratio
2022-02-18 15:46:44 <vms14       > didn't saw lambdanative
2022-02-18 15:51:03 <vms14       > lagash: there is waforth and some forths in js
2022-02-18 15:51:12 <vms14       > f-a: I try to find the link
2022-02-18 15:51:57 <lagash      > vms14: uh isn't that in WASM?
2022-02-18 15:54:36 <vms14       > f-a: https://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines.html
2022-02-18 15:54:39 <vms14       > lagash: yes
2022-02-18 15:59:31 <f-a         > thanks
2022-02-18 15:59:42 <vms14       > https://www.reddit.com/r/tinycode/comments/ze9x3/first_a_tiny_forth_in_just_791_bytes_of_c/ there is also this forth
2022-02-18 16:00:01 <vms14       > I'd like to have a forth where I can put xlib bindings
2022-02-18 16:00:19 <vms14       > maybe I should download pkgsrc and compile gforth
2022-02-18 16:00:45 <vms14       > but I'd like to have more control over that forth
2022-02-18 16:02:12 <vms14       > meh this forth does nothing
2022-02-18 16:05:54 <vms14       > lagash: there isn't a forth like s7 scheme?
2022-02-18 16:06:08 <vms14       > a .c file I can just add and put ffi in
2022-02-18 16:17:57 <vms14       > this one seems nice https://www.reddit.com/r/tinycode/comments/ze9x3/first_a_tiny_forth_in_just_791_bytes_of_c/
2022-02-18 16:18:02 <vms14       > fck this not
2022-02-18 16:18:08 <vms14       > https://gist.github.com/lbruder/10007431 this*
2022-02-18 16:19:55 <vms14       > seems to work, I've just compiled it and tried to define a word
2022-02-18 16:20:06 <vms14       > seems to have inmediate words and alike
2022-02-18 16:20:39 <vms14       > and it's public domain, which is nice
2022-02-18 16:21:13 <vms14       > I see much more public domain stuff between forthwrights than any other software community
2022-02-18 16:21:38 <vms14       > which is nice, I don't like the gpl
2022-02-18 16:22:34 <vms14       > I don't know yet what immediate postpone and alike do
2022-02-18 16:22:59 <vms14       > I understand an immediate word gets executed at compile time instead of putting the address in the list
2022-02-18 16:23:13 <vms14       > idk what postpone does yet
2022-02-18 16:23:37 <vms14       > but I need to feel comfortable with basic forth stuff firrst
2022-02-18 16:24:00 <vms14       > I'll take this c implementation, seems nice
2022-02-18 16:24:22 <vms14       > I can start adding ffi while learning the language at same time
2022-02-18 16:50:03 <remexre     > vms14: postpone solves the problem of, what if I want to define a word @IF that's equivalent to @ IF
2022-02-18 16:50:15 <remexre     > if I write : @IF @ IF ; that'll run the code for IF at compile-time
2022-02-18 16:50:30 <remexre     > instead I write : @IF @ POSTPONE IF ;
2022-02-18 16:50:54 <remexre     > I think the "equational definition" is something like
2022-02-18 16:51:02 <vms14       > so postpone works only for immediate words?
2022-02-18 16:51:20 <eris[m]     > it works for immediate and unimmediate
2022-02-18 16:51:22 <remexre     > : ... [ ... POSTPONE X ... ] ... ;  ==>  : ... [ ... ] X [ ... ] ... ;
2022-02-18 16:51:38 <remexre     > it replaces older things that only work for immediate words
2022-02-18 16:51:45 <vms14       > and defer?
2022-02-18 16:51:54 <remexre     > DEFER is approximately global function pointers
2022-02-18 16:52:14 <remexre     > it's usually used to allow you to forward-reference things
2022-02-18 16:52:49 <vms14       > remexre: there is a simple C forth implementation which is only one file or alike and it's "good enough"?
2022-02-18 16:53:08 <vms14       > https://gist.github.com/lbruder/10007431 found this one, seems fine
2022-02-18 16:53:22 <remexre     > iunno, IMO it's easier to understand+implement forth in terms of asm than C
2022-02-18 16:53:32 <vms14       > I want something simple where I can start adding ffi while learning the language at same time
2022-02-18 16:54:04 <vms14       > yes, but I'm not able to implement forth as I don't understand it yet
2022-02-18 16:54:31 <vms14       > I have to understand forth and see what I want to take from it, then write a dirty forth-like language
2022-02-18 16:55:09 <vms14       > and anyways I'm not targeting asm, but other languages like js and java
2022-02-18 16:55:31 <vms14       > since js would let me write web applications in forth and java/kotlin in android
2022-02-18 16:56:31 <vms14       > and if I make some sort of vm and start writing almost all the code in forth itself will be easy to have several implementations
2022-02-18 16:57:22 <vms14       > yet I can start, but for example stuff like the return stack, compiling words, immediate and postpone I have to understand better how they work and how should I implement
2022-02-18 16:57:22 <remexre     > I think it'd make sense to make something token-threaded then?
2022-02-18 16:58:13 <vms14       > atm is better to do nothing, but to understand the language
2022-02-18 16:58:42 <vms14       > I could end having a forth with no compile features, just being some sort of transpiler that writes code when executes a word
2022-02-18 16:59:17 <vms14       > or I could make an interpreter, depending on what I really want of forth, but I'd really like to have a forth able to do metaprogramming
2022-02-18 17:00:16 <vms14       > that's why I look for a c implementation, to add some bindings to libraries I want to use and make learning forth even more funny
2022-02-18 17:00:43 <remexre     > I guess, what's the win from it being single-file?
2022-02-18 17:01:13 <vms14       > remexre: cc file.c
2022-02-18 17:01:27 <remexre     > vs just running make?
2022-02-18 17:02:44 <vms14       > vs https://github.com/MitchBradley/cforth/tree/master/src/cforth
2022-02-18 17:03:31 <remexre     > that has a makefile?
2022-02-18 17:03:42 <vms14       > https://github.com/MitchBradley/cforth/blob/master/src/common.mk
2022-02-18 17:04:22 <vms14       > has even a java translator or wtf is that
2022-02-18 17:04:31 <vms14       > https://github.com/MitchBradley/cforth/tree/master/src/cforth/java
2022-02-18 17:04:51 <remexre     > uh isn't this from 1994
2022-02-18 17:05:11 <remexre     > i would consider scrutinizing carefully whether this actually does what you want
2022-02-18 17:05:28 <vms14       > yes I have a lot of source code to read
2022-02-18 17:05:32 <vms14       > including your own
2022-02-18 17:05:56 <vms14       > there are a lot of forth implementations in a lot of languages
2022-02-18 17:09:20 <vms14       > for now I'll try the one I've found
2022-02-18 17:10:35 <vms14       > it seems it will be fine for most basic stuff and adding stuff looks easy as BUILTIN(26, "DUP",  dup,  0) { push(tos()); }
2022-02-18 17:11:07 <vms14       > don't get what the 0 number does, and imagine the non string name is for the c function being defined
2022-02-18 17:11:39 <vms14       > but ADD_BUILTIN(docol); looks even easier
2022-02-18 17:12:19 <vms14       > oh, the 0 is because it's not an immediate word
2022-02-18 17:13:58 <vms14       > ok you have to do both, builtin and add_builtin
2022-02-18 17:18:52 <vms14       > this one seems more affordable https://github.com/flrl/froth
2022-02-18 17:24:29 <vms14       > http://fiji.sourceforge.net/ this is in java
2022-02-18 17:31:55 <vms14       > https://github.com/hcchengithub/jeforth.3we wtf
2022-02-18 17:33:24 <vms14       > http://hcchengithub.github.io/jeforth.3we/?cls_include_box2dweb-arrow.f :O
2022-02-18 17:33:35 <vms14       > the other examples don't work, but this one does
2022-02-18 17:35:40 <vms14       > and this one too http://hcchengithub.github.io/jeforth.3we/?cls_include_chipmunk-js-pyramidstack.f
2022-02-18 18:18:36 <vms14       > found exactly what I was looking for I guess
2022-02-18 18:18:45 <vms14       > https://github.com/paraplegic/OneFileForth/blob/master/src/OneFileForth.c
2022-02-18 18:33:19 <joe9        > vms14: you are about to go into a deep rabbit hole..
2022-02-18 19:15:30 <vms14       > joe9: what?
2022-02-18 19:15:46 <vms14       > lagash: found 8th that seems to work on android
2022-02-18 19:15:53 <vms14       > but you have to pay :D
2022-02-18 19:16:19 <vms14       > the best is always roll your own
2022-02-18 19:21:27 <vms14       > joe9: you mean looking at all the forth implementattions and playing with them?
2022-02-18 19:22:02 <vms14       > it's like everyday you could use a different forth in a different platform and even implemented in a diffrent language
2022-02-18 19:24:49 <vms14       > but I only want a little c implementation I can add xlib and stuff
2022-02-18 19:25:08 <vms14       > and later something that runs on android
2022-02-18 19:25:19 <vms14       > but it seems I'll have to make my own
2022-02-18 19:26:04 <vms14       > actually I could use this forth in c and put it on android and provide bindings trough jni
2022-02-18 19:26:23 <vms14       > but it's much better to do one from scratch in java or kotlin than doing that
2022-02-18 20:13:58 <joe9        > there are a lot of variables that you are dealing with. xlib, android, java -- all huge code bases.
2022-02-18 20:16:31 <joe9        > veltas, you around? do you have any opinions on the usage of r> and >r from the interpreter prompt?
2022-02-18 20:16:48 <vms14       > joe9: oh
2022-02-18 20:16:56 <vms14       > I know some basic xlib stuff
2022-02-18 20:17:12 <vms14       > I just want to add some few bindings to play
2022-02-18 20:17:50 <vms14       > it's very fun when you open a window and start drawing pixels images etc, specially when you do interactively
2022-02-18 20:18:08 <joe9        > ok, if you say so. Anything with linux is never simple.
2022-02-18 20:18:27 <joe9        > What are you trying to achieve? learn or do you have a purpose?
2022-02-18 20:18:32 <vms14       > java I don't like it, which is the reason to implement a forth in it
2022-02-18 20:18:53 <joe9        > if you are learning, check out plan9front. The gui and api's are much more saner.
2022-02-18 20:19:28 <vms14       > actually I want to learn forth, the xlib bindings would be to just add fun in the process
2022-02-18 20:19:52 <vms14       > but what I'm really going to do is to test if I like forth
2022-02-18 20:20:13 <vms14       > because if I do, then I'll do everything in forth
2022-02-18 20:20:26 <vms14       > by implementing forth wherever I need it
2022-02-18 20:20:48 <vms14       > so this is why I think in java/kotlin
2022-02-18 20:21:27 <vms14       > to have a forth able to create android applications, but once I've learned forth and feel brave enough to implement it in java/kotlin
2022-02-18 20:22:10 <vms14       > atm I could do a basic implementation, but no immediate, postpone, return stack...
2022-02-18 20:22:36 <vms14       > just words being executed and compiling new words
2022-02-18 20:23:18 <vms14       > so the goal now is learn forth and see what I want to steal from it
2022-02-18 20:25:06 <vms14       > joe9: you mean this one https://github.com/8l/ff ?
2022-02-18 20:25:27 <joe9        > that is a forth implementation on plan9.
2022-02-18 20:25:47 <joe9        > vms14: I am suggesting that you take a step back and look at the os
2022-02-18 20:25:58 <joe9        > and, if there is a more-learnable os around.
2022-02-18 20:26:19 <vms14       > I had a look at 9plan some time ago
2022-02-18 20:26:35 <vms14       > installed it in raw hardware, I was amused when I saw it
2022-02-18 20:26:58 <vms14       > but meh, it died cause they've put a wrong license
2022-02-18 20:27:10 <vms14       > and later decided to rectify, but it was late
2022-02-18 20:27:50 <vms14       > 9front I know is acttive, but I'm not interested in operating systems yet
2022-02-18 20:28:50 <vms14       > I think it's not my target, at most I could target embedded device stuff, but I would write a game there instead of a system
2022-02-18 20:29:29 <vms14       > btw iif you like the idea of plan9 and think is a nice case study there is a book from a guy I think it's named fernando ballesteros
2022-02-18 20:30:29 <vms14       > it's about operating systems and uses plan9 as study case, so if you recommend random people to look at plan9 you can also recommend the book, as it will provide the intended goal
2022-02-18 20:31:38 <vms14       > https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Abstractions-Using-Plan-Bell/dp/B005D2S5H0
2022-02-18 20:31:50 <vms14       > francisco ballesteros* (almost xD)
2022-02-18 20:32:49 <vms14       > I think it's another book
2022-02-18 20:33:22 <vms14       > guess is this one https://github.com/fjballest/docs/blob/master/9notes.pdf
2022-02-18 20:33:56 <vms14       > joe9: idk if you were aware of those books and would be interested, but there you have
2022-02-18 20:36:25 <vms14       > and you guys don't do web development with forth?
2022-02-18 20:36:38 <vms14       > I had a look around and saw nothing but java applets
2022-02-18 20:36:54 <vms14       > which sure it had to be nice, but won't work today
2022-02-18 20:37:16 <vms14       > I saw some seerver in gforth, but not really much movement on the web
2022-02-18 20:37:58 <vms14       > forth could be embedded in apache as apache module
2022-02-18 23:34:18 <joe9        > >r does not work at the interpreter prompt?