2022-05-11 01:51:40 <vms14       > yes, but a general purpose language is likely to need general stuff
2022-05-11 01:51:58 <vms14       > like access to a database, sockets and alike
2022-05-11 01:52:31 <vms14       > I love to reinvent the wheel, but I can't implement a socket library
2022-05-11 02:49:24 <eris[m]     > i mean, thats just one perspective on it
2022-05-11 02:49:41 <eris[m]     > its not like you need all of the socket library
2022-05-11 02:49:44 <eris[m]     > ay?
2022-05-11 06:41:32 <KipIngram   > I can't remember the last time I used a socket library at all.  But I will say that my whole point of view on this is shaped around embedded programming, and furthermore around embedded programming in situations where I designed the hardware too.  I am a sworn believer in programming the bare metal.
2022-05-11 06:42:45 <KipIngram   > I just don't believe in the "hardware team / software team split."  Solve the whole problem - not half of it here and half of it there.
2022-05-11 08:05:47 <veltas      > I think a more pragmatic Forth way is to simplify to the extent you don't need libraries, but inevitably you will want some, especially interacting with an OS or for networking
2022-05-11 08:06:12 <veltas      > There are some things that don't need libraries, some things that really do
2022-05-11 08:06:22 <veltas      > Security-related stuff deserves a library you can trust
2022-05-11 08:06:51 <veltas      > Driver stuff deserves drivers, unless your platform is embedded and the drivers would be trivial
2022-05-11 08:07:20 <veltas      > And if you're writing desktop applications then you already assume an OS... why not use it and some of the standard things you'd expect to come with it, i.e. networking stuff
2022-05-11 08:36:31 <eris[m]     > why do security stuff
2022-05-11 08:47:23 <KipIngram   > "A library you can trust" strikes me as a very rare commodity.  The software industry has a rather pathetic "security record."
2022-05-11 08:48:31 <KipIngram   > I posted a few weeks ago along the lines of "imagine that the auto industry, or the airliner industry, had a security and reliability record similar to the software industry."  That would just not have been tolerated.
2022-05-11 08:48:56 <veltas      > The fact is that I would rather trust i.e. an OpenBSD crypto library than one I wrote
2022-05-11 08:49:10 <KipIngram   > The software industry is unique in that it can alter its product after it's been shipped to the field.  They use that as a massive crutch to excuse poor design.
2022-05-11 08:49:20 <veltas      > Maybe if I wrote it I'd change my mind though, who knows
2022-05-11 08:49:36 <veltas      > And who knows if that would just be Dunning Kruger or whatever made up psychology
2022-05-11 08:49:42 <remexre     > I think a lot of the dragons with crypto are with yester-year's ciphers
2022-05-11 08:50:09 <remexre     > e.g. implementing RSA well enough to send and receive messages with a proper implementation is _far_ easier than implementing it securely
2022-05-11 08:50:53 <remexre     > but e.g. most of djb's work in the last 20-ish years has been ciphers that are as difficult as possible to mis-implement without failing unit tests
2022-05-11 08:51:07 <KipIngram   > I suspect that if every party implemented their own ciphers there would be LESS security breaches, because each one would have to be penetrated individually by the attackers.
2022-05-11 08:51:26 <KipIngram   > When a standard protocol is in use, then if they can hack that they open every single door all in one shot.
2022-05-11 08:51:36 <remexre     > eh, this maybe holds true for like, memory safety things
2022-05-11 08:51:50 <remexre     > there are just absurdly many "well-known to cryptographers" issues with RSA in particular
2022-05-11 08:52:14 <remexre     > that even professional cryptographers mess it up
2022-05-11 08:52:16 <veltas      > That's interesting remexre
2022-05-11 08:52:17 <KipIngram   > Standardization itself makes the hacker's job easier.
2022-05-11 08:52:48 <veltas      > I hate standardization usually
2022-05-11 08:52:56 <veltas      > There are exceptions to every rule though
2022-05-11 08:53:04 <KipIngram   > Sure, there are.
2022-05-11 08:54:17 <KipIngram   > The biggest reason things are so insecure, though, is that when networking was first being developed they just weren't thinking about security.  It was mostly used for scientists to send data around to one another, and there really wasn't anything going on that anyone cared about breaking into.
2022-05-11 08:54:36 <KipIngram   > And then we tried to build everything on top of those protocols, instead of re-designing from scratch with security foremost.
2022-05-11 08:54:48 <KipIngram   > Legacy tail wagging the dog again.
2022-05-11 08:55:29 <KipIngram   > Just as an example, it seems painfully obvious to me that both Slack and Discord are built on top of IRC.
2022-05-11 08:56:04 <KipIngram   > Just try starting a message in either one off with a /
2022-05-11 08:57:08 <KipIngram   > I guess it's possible they just "adopted the /command idea" from IRC and otherwise re-wrote, but I find that somewhat doubtful.
2022-05-11 08:57:36 <KipIngram   > I'd put my bets on the theory that they grabbed some available open source system and "extended" it.
2022-05-11 08:57:51 <veltas      > I think you're totally wrong on that front, with Discord anyway, don't know Slack
2022-05-11 08:58:16 <KipIngram   > Well, honestly I'm more convinced of it re: Slack than Discord.
2022-05-11 08:58:19 <veltas      > And also you're totally off the mark on security, I'm talking about how it's hard to implement a security library, you're talking about not thinking about security at all
2022-05-11 08:58:48 <KipIngram   > Ok, I just tried a / message in Discord, and it did "go out as a message."
2022-05-11 08:58:49 <veltas      > The insecurity I'm talking about is how it's actually hard to implement ... RSA apparently
2022-05-11 08:58:58 <KipIngram   > But, it did flash some other stuff up there before I hit enter.
2022-05-11 08:59:09 <KipIngram   > In Slack, though, I've found that you can't send such a message.
2022-05-11 08:59:18 <KipIngram   > If you put a space before the /, though, that works.
2022-05-11 08:59:25 <veltas      > Certainly IRC might have inspired aspects but it's not using the technology directly really, at all
2022-05-11 08:59:38 <veltas      > I wish people would just use IRC
2022-05-11 08:59:42 <KipIngram   > But Slack definitely tries to treat /blah blah as a command to the system, rather than an outbound message.
2022-05-11 08:59:48 <veltas      > Fed up with seeing "come find us on Discord" on new projects
2022-05-11 08:59:54 <veltas      > No I'm not doing Discord, come find me on iRC
2022-05-11 09:00:16 <KipIngram   > My main beef with Discord is that there is no console client, and in fact they typically ban third party clients.
2022-05-11 09:00:33 <KipIngram   > Also, the stand-alone client is a tremendous power hog.
2022-05-11 09:00:46 <KipIngram   > I quit using it and use the web interface instead.
2022-05-11 09:00:56 <KipIngram   > It's still a power hungry web page, but not as bad as the client.
2022-05-11 09:01:13 <veltas      > There's a million issues with it
2022-05-11 09:01:27 <veltas      > But mostly for me why would I use a proprietary app instead of an open protocol
2022-05-11 09:02:39 <KipIngram   > I ask myself the same question about Windows.  I don't see why so many companies use Windows instead of an operating system they can get for free.
2022-05-11 09:03:00 <remexre     > the public school system already trained their worker pool on windows
2022-05-11 09:03:20 <KipIngram   > Well, why does that happen then?
2022-05-11 09:03:45 <KipIngram   > You would think there would just be a "universal preference" foro "free and open," but there's not.
2022-05-11 09:03:57 <KipIngram   > Instead, let's line the pockets of a big wicked corporation.
2022-05-11 09:04:14 <remexre     > those last 2 sentence apply to how they choose textbooks too :)
2022-05-11 09:04:43 <KipIngram   > Yes.  When I was in college I had a love affair with Dover books.
2022-05-11 09:04:52 <KipIngram   > They were cheap, they were high quality, they were good.
2022-05-11 09:05:08 <KipIngram   > My engineering textbooks could easily have been Dover books - the topics were covered.
2022-05-11 09:05:22 <KipIngram   > But instead I dropped hundreds of dollars every semester for a short stack of books.
2022-05-11 09:06:44 <remexre     > i was even thinking beyond that; why doesn't e.g. the national governors association sponsor the creation of libre k-12 textbooks
2022-05-11 09:07:39 <remexre     > other than the fact that half of the history textbook would be about the alamo and the other half would be about the gold rush :P
2022-05-11 09:11:02 <KipIngram   > Well, I do think there's a war going on for the minds of our children.  I've been happy that my "main sphere of knowledge" is technical - those arenas seem somewhat immune to the political bullshit.  The STEM fields.   But once you get into history and literature and that kind of thing, it's like everyone's trying to craft the curriculum to send the "message" they want to send.
2022-05-11 09:11:33 <KipIngram   > I actually started collecting older historical / controversial books a few years ago, because I worry with the trend to digital books that we'll start having our histories and so on revised on the fly.
2022-05-11 09:11:47 <KipIngram   > I want the books ON MY SHELF, in paper and ink, so the knowledge is secure.
2022-05-11 09:12:22 <KipIngram   > A "classical education" used to be based on a collection of books from across the ages they call the "Great Books."
2022-05-11 09:12:30 <KipIngram   > Those have come under severe attack from the left.
2022-05-11 09:12:59 <KipIngram   > I've got a 1952 Great Books set from Britannica up there in that library.
2022-05-11 09:13:23 <KipIngram   > 54 hardcover books, published as a set - I picked up a copy on eBay for about $400.
2022-05-11 09:16:09 <KipIngram   > I mean, I  LOVE my ereader.  Being able to carry around a whole library like that is nothing short of amazing.  But it's... mutable.
2022-05-11 09:18:52 <KipIngram   > I do have one fiction collection on those shelves, just because I'm kind of a rabid fan of that particular series and set out to collect all the hardcovers.  But generally speaking it's intended to be a non-fiction library addressing things like history, philosophy, and so on.
2022-05-11 09:19:07 <remexre     > Hah, I looked thru that list and like a fifth of it is already on my personal to-read list :p
2022-05-11 09:19:37 <remexre     > The Great Books set, that is
2022-05-11 09:19:45 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2022-05-11 09:19:59 <KipIngram   > It's classic, meaningful stuff for the most part.
2022-05-11 09:20:17 <KipIngram   > Like I said, up until the last few decades it was considered the "backbone" of a liberal education.
2022-05-11 09:20:27 <KipIngram   > I'm using "liberal" in its classic sense there too.
2022-05-11 09:21:12 <KipIngram   > But the modern left writes it off completely because it was written by "dead white guys."
2022-05-11 09:22:43 <remexre     > Looking through the authors, I recognize 80+% of them from classes (graduated high school in 2016), so they're not particularly *erased* I'd say
2022-05-11 09:23:00 <veltas      > KipIngram: Unfortunately no field seems immune to politics
2022-05-11 09:23:15 <veltas      > And you get political bias etc in results, but it's not very widespread at least
2022-05-11 09:23:16 <remexre     > But I think this might be an order of magnitude more reading than was required in my entire high school experience...
2022-05-11 09:24:30 <KipIngram   > Right - they haven't been erased; some folks would like to, though.  Probably varies around the country to what extent they're still prevalent.
2022-05-11 09:25:04 <KipIngram   > Well, yeah - I think you'd have done most of it in college in the old days.
2022-05-11 09:25:54 <KipIngram   > My literature teacher in high school had us read some Homer, and some Milton, and some Dante.  But even in those cases it wouldn't have been everything in that collection.
2022-05-11 09:26:20 <KipIngram   > And in college I can speak to what it was like at the time I was there, since I went through an engineering program.
2022-05-11 09:28:32 <KipIngram   > Anyway, I straddle the fence on how I feel about the newer trends.  I think that I agree with the left on the point that there are probably t hings worth reading that are neglected in that list.  Things from other parts of the world and other cultures.  I don't think Western culture had a monopoly on "good thinking."  But on the other hand, I'm very much against the notion of largely "discarding" the fruits
2022-05-11 09:28:34 <KipIngram   > of the West.
2022-05-11 09:29:42 <KipIngram   > And you know, it may not be as bad as I've been led to believe - I think both sides in the "political warfare" spectrum try to demonize the other side.
2022-05-11 09:30:03 <KipIngram   > I think there are things said about both sides that just aren't really true.
2022-05-11 09:30:25 <KipIngram   > The truth is likely to be somewhere in the middle of what you hear from the fringes.
2022-05-11 09:31:15 <KipIngram   > I have this theory that most of what we hear about on the news is driven by those fringes - by the extreme peeps on each end.  The huge majority of people in the middle seem to be boring to the news media.
2022-05-11 09:31:31 <remexre     > Sensationalism sells
2022-05-11 09:31:46 <KipIngram   > Indeed - I was literally just about to type "not sensational enough."
2022-05-11 09:31:49 <KipIngram   > That's exactly it.
2022-05-11 09:31:52 <remexre     > Better so when you can just "report,"
2022-05-11 09:32:15 <remexre     > Controversial soandso said "<... 20 min segment ...>"
2022-05-11 09:32:34 <remexre     > Is it true? For more, we go to Twitter reactions: [...]
2022-05-11 09:32:39 <KipIngram   > Right again.  I'm pretty intrigued by the trend toward "long format" stuff you can find on YouTube.
2022-05-11 09:32:51 <KipIngram   > You can really delve into a subject when you talk with someone for 2-3 hours.
2022-05-11 09:33:16 <KipIngram   > Plus it's a lot harder for someone to "fake it" for that long a discussion.
2022-05-11 09:36:21 <KipIngram   > I hardly watch the news anymore.  I used to watch it religiously when I was young.  But it's all just gotten to be mostly crap and editorializing.
2022-05-11 09:36:45 <KipIngram   > It's hard to put much trust in them when it's so clear they have a desire for you to think a certain way.
2022-05-11 09:38:58 <remexre     > I heard some french guy talking about how we (assuming you're an American) are going about it all wrong by trying to have a "true" news source
2022-05-11 09:39:17 <remexre     > Vs a bunch of variously biased ones, where the bias is acknowledged
2022-05-11 09:39:41 <remexre     > E.g. "any middle schooler knows which paper is socialist and which is rightist"
2022-05-11 09:40:51 <remexre     > But nobody should be reading just one of them
2022-05-11 09:41:43 <KipIngram   > Well, that's actually kind of a fair point, and it is kind of where we are today.  But I don't think it used to be that way with the American network news sources.  I think it's something that's happened over the course of the last few decades.
2022-05-11 09:42:06 <KipIngram   > And yes - he makes a good point.  You do need to sample words from all over the spectrum and try to "interpolate."
2022-05-11 09:42:13 <KipIngram   > Not easy sometimes.
2022-05-11 09:42:52 <KipIngram   > Maybe it wasn't as different back then as I'd like to think -  maybe I was just too young and inexperienced to "see through it."
2022-05-11 09:44:05 <KipIngram   > I also used to (when I was a kid) think that the American government stood head and shoulders above most of the world in terms of honor and values.  Man, I sure don't feel that way anymore.  The whole political world is a bag of snakes.
2022-05-11 09:44:46 <KipIngram   > These days I regard all of them as people in pursuit of power.
2022-05-11 09:45:47 <KipIngram   > I sometimes think that if there was one thing I could do with a time machine, it would be to go back and convince the Founding Fathers to write term limits for all elected officials into the Constitution.
2022-05-11 09:46:07 <KipIngram   > It's bad that we have a political elite "class" - a group of people who build their entire careers on politics.
2022-05-11 09:46:29 <KipIngram   > I think every one of them should have to know that in a few short years they'd be out and back living in the world they legislate into existence.
2022-05-11 09:47:14 <KipIngram   > But honestly, if I was offered the chance to make that one trip, I might wind up going back to 1980 and buying Apple stock.
2022-05-11 09:47:20 <remexre     > Lol
2022-05-11 09:47:34 <KipIngram   > And then maybe I'd stay there - I liked the 80's.
2022-05-11 09:48:00 <KipIngram   > Liked the culture, liked the women, liked all of it.  :-)
2022-05-11 09:58:29 <remexre     > wholly unrelatedly
2022-05-11 09:58:34 <remexre     > I've got quotations in my Forth
2022-05-11 09:58:57 <remexre     > and I'm finding that I'm ending up with a lot of constructs that take a quotation
2022-05-11 09:59:12 <remexre     > but really what I want is for the rest of the colon definition to be the quotation
2022-05-11 10:00:11 <remexre     > would it be _too_ screwy to have a construct for that? maybe call it | and make  : foo { bar } | baz ;  equivalent to  : foo { baz } bar ;
2022-05-11 10:28:15 <KipIngram   > Quotations - you mean like string literals?
2022-05-11 10:29:39 <veltas      > Inline colon definition
2022-05-11 10:29:43 <KipIngram   > Ah.
2022-05-11 10:32:16 <KipIngram   > remexre: Can you unpack those little examples for me?  What the { } doing in that context?
2022-05-11 10:32:51 <KipIngram   > Oh, and so far as "unrelatedly" goes, it's not like I was very "on topic" back up there.  :-)
2022-05-11 10:33:07 <remexre     > : foo { bar } baz ;  is equivalent to  : tmp bar ; : foo ['] tmp baz ;
2022-05-11 10:33:20 <KipIngram   > Got it - thanks.
2022-05-11 10:34:05 <KipIngram   > That's a neat thing to be able to do - in my system at least it would complicate memory management a little.  I guess you have a "side place" to put the inline def in?
2022-05-11 10:35:49 <remexre     > I don't think it should need allocation to implement, though I do allocate in my compiler
2022-05-11 10:36:18 <KipIngram   > But where would you put it, if you're in the middle of building the other definition?  I guess you could compile a jump around it.
2022-05-11 10:36:23 <remexre     > yeah, exactly that
2022-05-11 10:36:30 <KipIngram   > Ok - that works.
2022-05-11 10:37:29 <KipIngram   > In an earlier system I had dynamic memory pages allocated on the fly, and I wanted it to be possible for them to be rather small, for cases when I wanted to run in a limited memory system.  So that guy was set up to compile a jump to the new page when a definition straddled a page boundary.
2022-05-11 10:38:06 <KipIngram   > I didn't split headers, though - if there wasn't enough room left in the header page for another one I went ahead to a new page.
2022-05-11 10:41:01 <KipIngram   > So, what makes you prefer this over just explicitly defining the quoted word?
2022-05-11 10:41:31 <KipIngram   > That's what I do - I explicitly define every word, but possibly use .: so I can discard that name from the dictionary later.
2022-05-11 10:42:14 <remexre     > I'm using these for loop/conditional combinators
2022-05-11 10:42:32 <remexre     > so instead of having IF/THEN/ELSE, I have { } WHEN, { } ?WHEN, { } UNLESS, { } { } COND, { } { } ?COND
2022-05-11 10:45:13 <KipIngram   > I see.
2022-05-11 10:46:11 <KipIngram   > I've pondered a number of times about things akin to a switch statement.  Never really arrived at a syntax I was suffiently happy with, that I thought would compile cleanly enough to suit me.
2022-05-11 10:47:53 <remexre     > hm, yeah; the system I'm currently making does "traditional" compiler optimizations, so writing the XTs to a table and jumping to it could plausibly be optimized nicely
2022-05-11 11:19:11 <KipIngram   > I've usually tended toward compiling each case of the switch as a word, and then having something like : foo choose word word word ... ;
2022-05-11 11:19:23 <KipIngram   > I.e., that foo word is the table, and choose jumps into it.
2022-05-11 11:19:36 <KipIngram   > Then each of the case words terminates in a double return, returning back past foo.
2022-05-11 11:20:29 <KipIngram   > But that really only works well when choose can calculate where to jump to - it works best if the choice variable is just a table offset.
2022-05-11 11:25:18 <remexre     > huh, that primitive makes a lot of sense, though I can't see a nice way to support it in my system since I'm not doing threaded code :(
2022-05-11 11:26:17 <remexre     > the double return could also probably live in choose itself instead of those words, right?
2022-05-11 11:32:14 <KipIngram   > Well, you want to wind up going back to foo's caller after one case executes.  So if choose JUMPS into the table, then the case gets called and you need a double return.  If choose jumped to the case itself, a single return would work.  If choose CALLS a case, which had a single return in it, then choose would have a double return, yes - to keep from executing into the table again.
2022-05-11 11:32:24 <KipIngram   > Lots of possibilities; just depends on how you decide to rig it.
2022-05-11 11:33:01 <KipIngram   > What was actually on my mind was for choose to just jump forward some amount, so the case word would execute as though you'd just executed through to it.  That would call for a double return in the case word.
2022-05-11 11:33:21 <remexre     > oh, I didn't think about that implementation; I guess then you're able to get fallthrough if you want it pretty easily
2022-05-11 11:54:26 <KipIngram   > Yes - if I wanted fall-through I'd just use single return in the case words.
2022-05-11 11:54:48 <KipIngram   > Then choose would become more like "skip N cells."
2022-05-11 11:59:53 <KipIngram   > Note, I've not ever gotten around to actually implementing this.
2022-05-11 11:59:57 <KipIngram   > Just thought about it.
2022-05-11 12:01:36 <KipIngram   > A more common need I have is, for example, take a character on the stack and check if it's "various things."  Like in number, I have a character and need to convert it to a digit value.  The values are 0-9, A-Z, a-z.
2022-05-11 12:02:09 <KipIngram   > So I subject the character to a series of tests - so long as a match isn't found, I need to keep trying further tests, but when I do get a match, I need to skip the rest of the test list.
2022-05-11 12:20:13 <KipIngram   > So that was designed so that 0-9 subtracted 48 and checked to see if it was 0-9 (a valid digit).  If not, it executes through to A-Z, which subtracts some more and then tests for 10-35; if not, it flows through to a-z, which subtracts some more and checks for 36-61.
2022-05-11 12:21:07 <KipIngram   > If that also fails, it falls through to an error.
2022-05-11 15:51:52 <KipIngram   > http://collapseos.org/
2022-05-11 15:52:00 <KipIngram   > ^ Nifty.
2022-05-11 16:25:01 <MrMobius    > hehe, Ive seen that before and always wondered why you would target Z80
2022-05-11 16:25:20 <MrMobius    > like if all the supply chains die and digikey doesnt exist anymore, where in your town are you going to loot a Z80?
2022-05-11 16:25:46 <MrMobius    > I think id want something that worked on the shittiest x86 someone happened to have lying around
2022-05-11 16:36:33 <Zarutian_HTC> MrMobius: do it like me, define a vm and port it to as many cpu archs as possible
2022-05-11 16:37:24 <Zarutian_HTC> and have a circuit diagrams for it using 74HC00's series and such chips
2022-05-11 16:38:28 <Zarutian_HTC> also have circuit drawings for it using electro mechanical or air pressure controled relays
2022-05-11 16:41:11 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I imagine one could still scavenge a fair number of DIP parts out there, if you could just walk in anywhere and take stuff.
2022-05-11 16:42:34 <Zarutian_HTC> that and quad flat packages surface mount things
2022-05-11 16:57:58 <MrMobius    > i dont think anyone nowadays is going to make a ttl computer without the help of the internet
2022-05-11 16:58:15 <MrMobius    > finding an intact x86 machine somewhere seems much more likely
2022-05-11 16:58:42 <MrMobius    > but kudos to you if thats your solution in the apocalypse :)
2022-05-11 17:01:02 <Zarutian_HTC> I might been watching to much sfia youtube and read too many foresight and longnow foundation articles but I would not mind help write something like transtechnicon for future civilizations restarts/rebuildings
2022-05-11 17:03:51 <Zarutian_HTC> not measly decades timeframe as the medium granularity but centuries
2022-05-11 17:08:15 <MrMobius    > speaking of 7400 stuff though, I finished the design for mine this week: http://calc6502.com/calcTTL/schematic.html
2022-05-11 17:14:59 <KipIngram   > I do think the first thing to scavenge for would be intact computers, and I think you'd find them.
2022-05-11 17:15:20 <KipIngram   > This collapseos thing seems more well suited to bringing back embedded gadgets.
2022-05-11 18:00:01 <veltas      > You are absolutely right on this one MrMobius
2022-05-11 18:00:23 <veltas      > And ##forth knows at this point how profound it is for me to just agree with MrMobius :P
2022-05-11 18:04:03 <KipIngram   > :-)
2022-05-11 18:07:50 <veltas      > Especially since I happen to really like Z80 and have written a forth for Z80 as well
2022-05-11 18:08:55 <veltas      > In the post-apocalypse I'll be happy if we can still manufacture any CPU though
2022-05-11 18:17:07 <Zarutian_HTC> veltas: ya heard about the garage chip fabber or the opensource ecology stuff?
2022-05-11 18:17:18 <veltas      > No that sounds interesting
2022-05-11 18:17:34 <veltas      > Forth is definitely an apocalyptic language
2022-05-11 18:42:15 <KipIngram   > The guy who pointed that website out to me said that they'd originally intended to use Z80 assembly, but changed their mind and opted for Forth.
2022-05-11 18:42:21 <KipIngram   > A ***good*** decision.
2022-05-11 18:42:55 <KipIngram   > You don't really lose much of anything on the bare metal end going to Forth, and you gain SO MUCH on the upward end.
2022-05-11 22:36:33 <KipIngram   > Hmmm.  The full screen editor in that collapseos has a pretty interesting batch of functionality.
2022-05-11 22:37:57 <MrMobius    > i wonder if it runs on graphing calculators
2022-05-11 22:44:28 <KipIngram   > TI-84+ is listed.
2022-05-11 22:44:34 <KipIngram   > https://incoherency.co.uk/collapseos/hw/index.html
2022-05-11 22:51:40 <MrMobius    > heh