2022-05-28 03:46:06 <dave0       > maw
2022-05-28 07:04:09 <lopata      > whats best material to learn forth? ive already read Start Forth tutorial
2022-05-28 07:15:06 <dave0       > there is starting forth book: https://www.forth.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Starting-FORTH.pdf
2022-05-28 07:15:18 <dave0       > than thinking forth book: https://downloads.sourceforge.net/thinking-forth/thinking-forth-color.pdf
2022-05-28 07:15:21 <dave0       > and*
2022-05-28 07:16:09 <dave0       > i dived in to jonesforth, and read through brad rodriguez site
2022-05-28 07:18:02 <dave0       > a mirror of jonesforth is on github: https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth
2022-05-28 07:18:55 <dave0       > this is brad rodriguez moving forth: https://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm
2022-05-28 07:56:53 <lopata      > ty dave0
2022-05-28 10:57:29 <KipIngram   > Good morning gents - happy Saturday!
2022-05-28 10:57:45 <thrig       > why is saturday happy
2022-05-28 10:59:03 <KipIngram   > Well, Saturdays are always nice in my book, but this one is particularly nice because it's a Saturday kicking off a three-day weekend.  Monday is a holiday in the States - "Memorial Day."
2022-05-28 10:59:10 <KipIngram   > So, I'm in an extra chipper mood.
2022-05-28 11:00:26 <KipIngram   > I've been exercising well lately and I'm in that "feel good" phase that comes in the early parts of such work.
2022-05-28 11:01:02 <KipIngram   > You get used to it and stop noticing later on, but in that early time it's actually evident that you feel better than you did a month prior.
2022-05-28 11:26:54 <thrig       > ooooh pforth DUMP is in units of 16 not the cell size so can easily try to dump more memory and thus segfaults when it wanders off into ...
2022-05-28 11:32:20 <KipIngram   > ?  But I thought RAM protection was on 4k boundaries.  You mean it does 16 byte chunks regardless of whether you start on a 16-byte boundary or not?
2022-05-28 11:33:28 <KipIngram   > If you start on a 16-byte boundary then I'd think all of each 16-byte chunk would have the same protection settings.
2022-05-28 11:34:46 <thrig       > but you can 1+ the start address and then request 256 from there
2022-05-28 11:35:22 <KipIngram   > I see.  So if you start in the middle then you can't dump all the way to your last readable byte - it'll overrun.
2022-05-28 11:35:43 <thrig       > or actually  ' + 1 dump  blow it up
2022-05-28 11:36:33 <KipIngram   > : my_dump  swap 0xF not and swap dump ;
2022-05-28 11:38:06 <KipIngram   > I'm guessing a little at the parameters for dump; that assumes it's (addr count --)
2022-05-28 11:38:30 <thrig       > it is
2022-05-28 11:38:39 <KipIngram   > I need to write a dump for mine.
2022-05-28 11:39:06 <KipIngram   > One of those things that's "easy," but slightly tedious if you want the standard display with both the hex and ascii.
2022-05-28 11:39:47 <KipIngram   > I haven't done my formatted output stuff yet, so I'll likely wait until I have that to draw on.
2022-05-28 11:40:06 <thrig       > pforth does it in C
2022-05-28 11:40:20 <KipIngram   > Yes - I used pforth for a consulting project back in the early 2000's.
2022-05-28 11:40:35 <KipIngram   > My memory of it was that it was fairly easy to build it.
2022-05-28 11:41:04 <KipIngram   > But at that time at least its default prompt and input line handling wasn't Forth "standard."
2022-05-28 11:41:19 <thrig       > I tried buildin gforth and then there was a clang process taking a gig of memory and the one cpu fan that still works spun up
2022-05-28 11:41:24 <KipIngram   > Looked like they didn't bother to do the termios dance that's required to get it all to work in the standard way.
2022-05-28 11:41:35 <KipIngram   > :-)
2022-05-28 11:41:41 <KipIngram   > I've never attempted to build gforth.
2022-05-28 11:42:06 <KipIngram   > I also want to remember that the pforth source code was fairly well organized - it was easy to find places I needed to change things.
2022-05-28 11:42:18 <thrig       > ... using gcc results in a "wtf is that flag?? compiler error" and if you remove the flag it blows up somewhere else
2022-05-28 11:42:59 <KipIngram   > That kind of thing plagues a lot of things I try to build.  I've never understood why they've just kept on making build tools more and more involved.
2022-05-28 11:43:17 <KipIngram   > I was perfectly happy with old school make, but they just kept piling new tools on.
2022-05-28 11:43:32 <KipIngram   > I'm talking about the old, very straightforward and simple make.
2022-05-28 11:44:01 <KipIngram   > Back then I could open a makefile and see exactly what it was doing, but these days I just don't follow it all.
2022-05-28 11:44:09 <thrig       > well if you want portability to HP/UX, or ...
2022-05-28 11:45:24 <KipIngram   > I know.  I know they've had "reasons."
2022-05-28 11:46:00 <thrig       > so you end up with a 25,000 line Configure shell script, or autotools, or cmake
2022-05-28 11:46:06 <KipIngram   > Exactly.
2022-05-28 11:46:26 <thrig       > or a very short shell script, say for rustup, that is hilariously unportable
2022-05-28 11:46:58 <KipIngram   > Well, I'm not sure I see the need for a single thing to run on 500 different operating systems.
2022-05-28 11:47:12 <KipIngram   > But I see why someone might want it.
2022-05-28 11:47:22 <KipIngram   > Makes it easier for the developers - harder for the users.
2022-05-28 11:47:29 <KipIngram   > If something doesn't work, that is.
2022-05-28 11:47:37 <KipIngram   > As long as it "just works" without any problems, it's great.
2022-05-28 11:47:48 <KipIngram   > But if you need to tinker with something, you can't figure out what the hell is going on.
2022-05-28 11:47:58 <KipIngram   > A whole "priesthood" has grown up around those tools.
2022-05-28 19:58:02 <siraben     > thrig: did you manage to build gforth?
2022-05-28 19:58:53 <siraben     > The build process is fairly standard autoconf/autotools/automake and the only extra dependency is m4 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/nixos-21.11/pkgs/development/compilers/gforth/default.nix
2022-05-28 19:59:37 <siraben     > if you want to enable the swig bindings it's a bit more involved but not bad