2022-06-15 06:48:00 <KipIngram   > MrMobius: I use a Python script to generate the assembly source of a whole pile of my words.  All those conditional returns and stuff - they're all extremely similar, except for the precise conditional jump used within each one.
2022-06-15 06:48:50 <KipIngram   > I did that for all the conditional returns and conditional recurse words, but failed to include the actual "flag calculating" words (like < and <= and so on).  I need to tweak it to mop those up as well.
2022-06-15 06:50:28 <KipIngram   > I've got one for each different conditional case for 1) return, 2) double return, and 3) recurse, and then all of those with an implicit 0 argument and then all of all those in a version that retains an argument that would normally be dropped.  Winds up being quite a large number of primitives.
2022-06-15 06:50:51 <KipIngram   > If I got interested in minimizing the size of my image throwing away almost all of those would be step #1.
2022-06-15 06:51:09 <KipIngram   > Incluidng all of them was definitely oriented toward performance.
2022-06-15 06:52:54 <KipIngram   > Oh, and unsigned versions of the ones involving < and > considerations.
2022-06-15 06:53:00 <KipIngram   > Hmmm.
2022-06-15 06:53:24 <KipIngram   > Now that I think about it the way I did it probably gave me signed and unsigned versions for the = and != cases too, which doesn't make any sense.
2022-06-15 06:53:30 <KipIngram   > Oops.
2022-06-15 06:56:26 <KipIngram   > Man, took me long enough to realize that.  :-(  So I need to filter those out, and extend it to include the "make a flag" case as well as the return / recurse cases.
2022-06-15 06:56:55 <KipIngram   > And then go through and remove the make-a-flag words I've manually written.
2022-06-15 06:59:37 <KipIngram   > So given this recent interest in radio, I imagine one of these days I'll want to roll my own radio unit, which will of course lean heavily on software radio techniques.  So I want to use this Forth to program that.
2022-06-15 07:21:28 <Viking667   > 'llo all. Anyone speak gforth here? I've got a couple of strange questions.
2022-06-15 07:22:21 <crc         > 
ACTION can attempt to help with gforth

2022-06-15 07:23:19 <Viking667   > Okay - I'm on the latest git release, and I had a couple of problems compiling on an older Fedora machine - four missing headers from SDL2.
2022-06-15 07:26:24 <boru        > This isn't a forth question, but rather a how-do-I-compile-software question.
2022-06-15 07:26:50 <boru        > If your local installation of SDL doesn't provide those headers, then you'll need a version that does.
2022-06-15 07:26:59 <Viking667   > Namely: SDL2_metal.h  SDL2_hidapi.h, SDL2_locale.h and one other one I can't remember.
2022-06-15 07:27:41 <Viking667   > I haven't seen _any_ versions of SDL2 that have those headers. Looked on Ubuntu's package manager too, and it doesn't know them, just the normal SDL2_net/etc stuff.
2022-06-15 07:28:15 <Viking667   > I commented them out of one particular include file for swig just so the build would make...
2022-06-15 07:28:29 <Viking667   > Once I did that, the build "make" ran to completion.
2022-06-15 07:29:32 <Viking667   > Ah, here we are. gforth/unix/SDL.i
2022-06-15 07:29:40 <crc         > SDL2_metal.h should only be applicable on macOS or iOS I think
2022-06-15 07:30:03 <Viking667   > Heh. And I'm on neither of those. No Apple hardware here at all.
2022-06-15 07:30:22 <boru        > All of those headers are a part of SDL2.
2022-06-15 07:30:27 <boru        > They are present on my system.
2022-06-15 07:30:46 <crc         > https://github.com/libsdl-org/SDL/tree/main/include lists those headers as part of the SDL2 source tree
2022-06-15 07:30:49 <Viking667   > Ah, and the other one was SDL2_misc.h
2022-06-15 07:31:03 <Viking667   > huh. How long have they been part of the main tree?
2022-06-15 07:31:25 <Viking667   > (or is that too hard to answer without having git/svn/cvs tree of the project?)
2022-06-15 07:32:00 <crc         > SDL2_metal.h has been there since 2019
2022-06-15 07:32:28 <Viking667   > Ah. That might explain it - my machine basically hasn't had much updating since Fedora 28 in about 2017/2018
2022-06-15 07:32:29 <boru        > Yeah, years at least, looking at the blame. Probably longer if you look in the logs before github.
2022-06-15 07:32:43 <boru        > boru> If your local installation of SDL doesn't provide those headers, then you'll need a version that does.
2022-06-15 07:32:54 <Viking667   > sigh. Okay, thanks for that.
2022-06-15 07:33:02 <Viking667   > 
ACTION kicks package maintainers

2022-06-15 07:33:21 <boru        > Not the maintainers fault, imho.
2022-06-15 07:34:51 <Viking667   > hm, I might change tacks. I was looking for files using apt-cache, I should perhaps be looking for package name.
2022-06-15 07:36:06 <boru        > Doesn't fedora use yum/dnf?
2022-06-15 07:37:03 <Viking667   > It does, but wifie has an Ubuntu machine I often use to double check if package actually exists over in Debian/Ubuntu lang.
2022-06-15 07:37:13 <Viking667   > s/lang/land/
2022-06-15 07:37:33 <boru        > IME, I wouldn't count on that. Anything based on something created by redhat is usually insane.
2022-06-15 07:38:16 <boru        > If you _really_ want the latest gforth on that fedora machine, I'd build gforth _and_ the deps out of tree to prevent hosing your system.
2022-06-15 07:38:19 <Viking667   > I thought apt was created for Debian project?
2022-06-15 07:38:52 <boru        > I was referring to your idea that things between debian and fedora will be similar.
2022-06-15 07:39:18 <boru        > Debian have their own philosophy when it comes to packages, also.
2022-06-15 07:39:26 <boru        > They patch things _a lot_.
2022-06-15 07:39:35 <Viking667   > In my experience, sometimes the lines between what stuff gets put into what packages are a little ... fluid between Fedora/CentOS and Debian-family
2022-06-15 07:39:48 <boru        > That is an understatement.
2022-06-15 07:40:11 <Viking667   > Well, SDL2_misc.h isn't in any of the SDL-dev packages I've installed so far...
2022-06-15 07:40:16 <Viking667   > let me check further
2022-06-15 07:40:46 <boru        > As I said, I would create the environment for your gforth installation out of tree e.g. in a root from your home directory.
2022-06-15 07:40:59 <boru        > Less chance of irreversibly breaking your system that way.
2022-06-15 07:41:15 <boru        > Don't just `make install` things willy-nilly. You're asking for trouble.
2022-06-15 07:41:48 <boru        > If it's in your package manager, you're probably okay. For things not managed by your package manager, dragons ensue.
2022-06-15 07:42:35 <boru        > Unix is not windows.
2022-06-15 07:42:38 <Viking667   > gforth in my package manager is the version from 2013
2022-06-15 07:42:47 <Viking667   > (i.e. 0.7.3)
2022-06-15 07:43:04 <Viking667   > And I didn't "make install" on SDL, I ain't that crazy.
2022-06-15 07:43:25 <boru        > 0.7.3 is the current release...
2022-06-15 07:43:33 <boru        > https://www.gnu.org/software/gforth
2022-06-15 07:44:01 <boru        > If you want newer, clone master: https://savannah.gnu.org/git/?group=gforth
2022-06-15 07:45:38 <Viking667   > Already did, that brought me to here with those errors.
2022-06-15 07:46:09 <Viking667   > And _none_ of the SDL packages I've installed include any of those five header files.
2022-06-15 07:46:30 <Viking667   > fifth one was SDL2_misc.h
2022-06-15 07:46:43 <boru        > I think you're missing the point here. The version of SDL available for your system is appropriate for the version of gforth in your package repos. If you want a newer version of SDL from your package repos, you'll probably need to upgrade your fedora release, or provide a newer SDL yourself.
2022-06-15 07:47:10 <boru        > This is not the fault of the fedora or gforth maintainers.
2022-06-15 07:48:00 <Viking667   > oh... wow. Ubuntu 21.04 only has SDL2-2.0.10
2022-06-15 07:48:29 <boru        > Anyway, time to go back to work.
2022-06-15 07:49:28 <Viking667   > Ah well, thanks for clarifying those points.
2022-06-15 08:55:51 <tangentstorm> does anyone have a good article/resource about translating more conventional languages into idiomatic forth? or like... how to factor variables out of forth code?
2022-06-15 10:24:35 <remexre     > tangentstorm: have you read/seen Thinking Forth?
2022-06-15 11:53:29 <tangentstorm> hrm. i have, but it has been a really long time. i'll take another look, remexre ... thanks!
2022-06-15 11:55:07 <tangentstorm> i think last time i looked, the nice pdf version was just getting started.
2022-06-15 11:55:15 <tangentstorm> nice to see they followed through :)
2022-06-15 14:23:34 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I think TF is the best resource I know for that level of stuff.
2022-06-15 14:26:27 <KipIngram   > I updated my Fedora from 34 to 36 last week.  That went smoothly.  There are alrerady 2 pending updates that I haven't applied yet, and five "firmwave images."  For some reason updating firmware images makes me more nervous than system updates.
2022-06-15 14:26:59 <KipIngram   > I know either one could screw me over just as well if things went wrong - I don't really know why I have different feelings about them.
2022-06-15 15:06:42 <lispmacs[work]> KipIngram: firmware images? for CPU microcode? Or other devices...?
2022-06-15 15:18:47 <KipIngram   > Yeah, for devices in the system.  Like a few weeks ago I applied a firmware update for the fingerprint reader.
2022-06-15 15:19:09 <KipIngram   > Hang on and I'll show you.
2022-06-15 15:20:06 <KipIngram   > https://imgur.com/a/yqxmEFW
2022-06-15 15:20:10 <KipIngram   > That's the pending list.
2022-06-15 20:27:18 <tabemann    > hey