2022-06-16 10:52:15 <KipIngram   > hi tabemann
2022-06-16 10:52:33 <KipIngram   > Wow - it's been quiet here for a while...
2022-06-16 11:44:01 <dlowe       > Let it be that people who write Forth shall henceforth be known as "Forthwrights".
2022-06-16 11:44:22 <dlowe       > I feel if I can get this term to stick, I'll have made my community contribution.
2022-06-16 11:44:44 <thrig       > but are they writing forthlikes or forthlites
2022-06-16 11:46:36 <KipIngram   > :-)  That term has floated around here before, dlowe.  I've always liked it.
2022-06-16 11:46:44 <KipIngram   > Has an air of "craftsmanship" to it.
2022-06-16 11:48:29 <dlowe       > ah, I should have known better than to assume originality after so long :)  I did do a search to see if I could find it being used.
2022-06-16 11:53:15 <dlowe       > I am not actually a Forthwright yet :p I've read Starting/Thinking FORTH, the jonesFORTH source, and I think I get it, but I don't have a project atm and there's precious few open source things to contribute to
2022-06-16 12:02:08 <lispmacs[work]> dlowe: if you are interested in ARM microcontrollers, there are a lot of drivers and such like that could be written for Mecrisp Stellaris Forth
2022-06-16 12:02:27 <lispmacs[work]> https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/
2022-06-16 12:29:48 <veltas      > You can also just write some programs you'd usually write in something else in forth
2022-06-16 12:43:08 <lispmacs[work]> i.e., programs with no graphics or direct network access, he he
2022-06-16 12:45:59 <veltas      > Forth can do all that you just need to know how to use C libraries
2022-06-16 12:46:52 <veltas      > You can do it all without C as well technically but you're on your own
2022-06-16 12:47:12 <veltas      > But I mean short and sweet programs for practice
2022-06-16 12:50:57 <KipIngram   > I really do consider the material laid out in Thinking Forth as practically the best "how to *use* Forth" training available.  That books teaches a "mentality."  A lot of it is applicable to any language, actually.
2022-06-16 12:51:19 <KipIngram   > It's just that Forth particularly rewards some of the methodologies proposed.
2022-06-16 12:52:01 <KipIngram   > dlowe: If you're into "embedded gadgets" those offer great Forth opportunities.
2022-06-16 13:01:35 <dlowe       > Yeah, my thought with Thinking Forth was the same - this is just programming advice.
2022-06-16 13:01:47 <dlowe       > Maybe years ahead of its time in some places
2022-06-16 13:05:20 <dlowe       > lispmacs[work]: thanks for the link. This looks like a cool project
2022-06-16 13:12:59 <lispmacs[work]> dlowe: I've been using the Rpi Pico platform for that, which uses the ARM RP2040 processor, but I think the STM32 boards are more popular with Mecrisp users
2022-06-16 13:13:35 <lispmacs[work]> Rpi Pico is an 80Mhz ARM microcontroller released by Raspberri Pi project two years ago
2022-06-16 13:15:04 <lispmacs[work]> pretty easy to get started because Rpi Pico has a button that turns the Pico into a USB storage device, so you can just drag and drop the code file onto it
2022-06-16 13:15:44 <lispmacs[work]> uf2 binaries, to be more precise
2022-06-16 13:16:25 <lispmacs[work]> and mecrisp has uf2 binaries available for rp2040 target\
2022-06-16 13:18:22 <dlowe       > I really like the ESP32 chips for embedded stuff
2022-06-16 13:19:09 <dlowe       > https://esphome.io/ has a ton of pluggable components for it
2022-06-16 13:23:23 <lispmacs[work]> dlowe: does the core of ESP32 SDK have proprietary/closed-source bits, like with esp8266?
2022-06-16 14:02:31 <dlowe       > good question
2022-06-16 14:04:34 <dlowe       > I notice there's esp-open-rtos for esp8266 controllers, though
2022-06-16 14:35:52 <lispmacs[work]> dlowe: esp-open-rtos is depended on the same espressif closed-source binaries
2022-06-16 14:36:22 <lispmacs[work]> you'll see that the include/espressif/ directory only includes the header files
2022-06-16 14:38:33 <lispmacs[work]> https://github.com/SuperHouse/esp-open-rtos#binary-components
2022-06-16 14:39:39 <lispmacs[work]> punyforth, which I used for a past esp8266 project, is based on esp-open-rtos
2022-06-16 14:41:07 <lispmacs[work]> I liked punyforth and working with the esp8266, but not the proprietary bits. Also, things get kind of mysterious when you try to delve into the deep-down facets of how punyforth works, since the author can only refer you to the Espressif documentation of their C functions
2022-06-16 14:42:35 <lispmacs[work]> unlike, say, Mecrisp where you can load the assembly code symbols and step through everything in GDB
2022-06-16 15:51:45 <KipIngram   > Yeah, a Forth you can't see the guts of is less than perfect.
2022-06-16 17:39:21 <veltas      > dlowe: Thinking FORTH has the earliest use of the word 'refactoring' we know of
2022-06-16 17:39:35 <veltas      > It's earlier than the one cited as earliest on Wikipedia anyway
2022-06-16 17:40:14 <veltas      > Oh wait it's mentioned on Wikipedia now finally
2022-06-16 17:40:56 <veltas      > It still says something else is "first known" in 1990 and then it says it's used that way the 1980s in Thinking FORTH....
2022-06-16 17:41:11 <veltas      > FORTH is also the first high level language used in space
2022-06-16 19:58:22 <KipIngram   > Yep.
2022-06-16 20:05:46 <nmz         > its sad
2022-06-16 20:05:53 <nmz         > composable functions are heavy in other languages
2022-06-16 20:05:57 <nmz         > why even use functions
2022-06-16 20:12:36 <tabemann    > the main other language that I know of that composes functions well is Haskell
2022-06-16 20:51:34 <siraben     > especially with inlining and rewrite rules, mmm