2022-07-05 00:33:58 <dinklebink  > Does Forth have a filesystem?
2022-07-05 00:56:26 <remexre     > not inherently
2022-07-05 00:56:38 <remexre     > there are words in an extension to the standard about block-based IO
2022-07-05 00:57:06 <remexre     > i.e. a flat file (which could be an entire disk in a forth-as-an-os implementation) that you can request blocks be loaded to memory from
2022-07-05 00:57:13 <remexre     > and flush them back, if wanted
2022-07-05 00:57:25 <remexre     > kinda like mmap, if you're more familiar with the C/Unix world
2022-07-05 01:09:17 <dinklebink  > Forth is very similar to booting into an old 8-bit PC with a BASIC interpreter or booting into DOS
2022-07-05 01:09:23 <dinklebink  > and DOS is my favorite OS so I'm very much enjoying myself
2022-07-05 03:22:50 <klys        > http://show.ing.me/paste/04jul2022.png
2022-07-05 03:23:15 <dave0       > klys: happy 4th of july !
2022-07-05 03:23:26 <klys        > thx dave0
2022-07-05 08:24:49 <dinklebink  > stack underflow just means stack empty?
2022-07-05 08:25:47 <thrig       > .S  might be good to know
2022-07-05 08:27:08 <dinklebink  > I just did that, what's it do?
2022-07-05 08:27:12 <dinklebink  > . alone should print the stack right?
2022-07-05 08:28:01 <thrig       > that does not print the full stack, and it modifies the stack
2022-07-05 08:28:43 <dinklebink  > how?
2022-07-05 09:01:46 <KipIngram   > dinklebink: . just removes the top item from the stack, and prints it out.  In older systems there's a variable BASE and the number is printed in that base.
2022-07-05 09:02:02 <dinklebink  > yes I understand
2022-07-05 09:02:08 <dinklebink  > but what is .S
2022-07-05 09:02:10 <KipIngram   > sometimes there's .s or s. that prints the whole stack without changing it, but ti's not as "standard" as . is.
2022-07-05 09:02:41 <KipIngram   > .s might print your whole stack - you'd need to consult the docs for your system.
2022-07-05 09:02:41 <thrig       > dot-s is in ANS
2022-07-05 09:56:44 <dinklebink  > https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479
2022-07-05 09:56:51 <dinklebink  > you guys might find this article interesting
2022-07-05 09:58:54 <thrig       > granted . is way lots older than .S
2022-07-05 12:13:57 <KipIngram   > This is a pretty good article on power supplies:
2022-07-05 12:13:59 <KipIngram   > https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/whitepaper/21244667/analog-devices-reduce-noise-by-synchronizing-switching-regulators?o_eid=2379F0905723A3W&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C2379F0905723A3W&oly_enc_id=2379F0905723A3W
2022-07-05 12:14:17 <KipIngram   > Has to do with synchronizing the switching clocks of multiple supplies to clean up the emission spectrum.
2022-07-05 12:14:31 <KipIngram   > While also arranging for the various supplies to not all be sucking input current at the same time.
2022-07-05 12:15:02 <KipIngram   > thrig: Yeah, I think of . and .s in entirely different ways, actually.
2022-07-05 12:15:15 <KipIngram   > .s is really mostly a debug/diagnostic thing in my mind.
2022-07-05 12:15:30 <KipIngram   > Generally, printing the whole stack isn't horribly useful in applications.
2022-07-05 12:53:51 <siraben     > This is a fantastic book: https://en.algorithmica.org/hpc/
2022-07-05 12:54:43 <siraben     > I mostly stuck to a far-too-simple conceptual model of programming at the assembly level as "just add the number of cycles that instructions take" which works fine on chips such as the Z80 but not on modern hardware with scheduling, pipelining, instruction and memory caches
2022-07-05 12:55:05 <siraben     > A Forth that exploits SIMD instructions would be interesting because Forth gives low-level control over the CPU
2022-07-05 12:57:45 <imode       > I'm building a concurrent Forth.
2022-07-05 12:57:52 <imode       > well. something that looks like one.
2022-07-05 12:58:37 <imode       > you can break out to assembly on a Forth pretty easily, including gforth.
2022-07-05 12:58:47 <siraben     > imode: does it use multicore programming?
2022-07-05 12:59:52 <imode       > better yet, it has a hardware and software model. the models themselves practically mandate millions of tiny processes, each weighing in total less than half a kilobyte.
2022-07-05 13:01:01 <dinklebink  > what if I want to run it on a z80 tho
2022-07-05 13:01:17 <siraben     > I see
2022-07-05 13:01:39 <imode       > if you can splice up the z80's available memory and fit a scheduler in there, go for it.
2022-07-05 13:02:28 <imode       > in fact it'd probably be a good prototyping platform if you had multiple Z80s communicating with eachother.
2022-07-05 13:03:07 <imode       > SIMD is nice but when you couple your data to compute, you can do.. anything you'd like, I guess. it's possible to write a scheduler that takes advantage of SIMD instructions in the software model.
2022-07-05 13:06:00 <remexre     > uh, like a barrel CPU? or just taking doing the same "don't save SIMD regs on context-switch" trick that e.g. linux on x86_64 does, but making the scheduler aware of it?
2022-07-05 13:07:40 <imode       > nah. more like a Connection Machine.
2022-07-05 13:08:17 <imode       > simplified chip diagram. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/gDkvVYV1/Feather%20Chip.png
2022-07-05 13:09:09 <imode       > just shows 16 CPUs, but with a space-filling curve you can tile a chip with hundreds of thousands. each core has no program memory, but instead waits for instructions from that little core on the left.
2022-07-05 13:09:24 <remexre     > er, I mean, what does it mean for a scheduler to take advantage of SIMD instructions in the software model?
2022-07-05 13:09:56 <imode       > well, because all of the processes are fixed size, and because there's a fixed program that applies to multiple cores..
2022-07-05 13:10:17 <imode       > SIMD may be applicable.
2022-07-05 13:35:27 <siraben     > SIMD mostly makes sense in making the most out of a single CPU, IMO
2022-07-05 13:35:48 <siraben     > Not sure if in the multicore case the overheads would be worthwhile to split up computation between them
2022-07-05 13:36:01 <siraben     > e.g. cache misses and branch mispredictions
2022-07-05 15:30:51 <KipIngram   > Oh, that does look like a good book, siraben.  Thanks for sharing.
2022-07-05 15:32:56 <KipIngram   > Yes, Forth's way of giving access to assembly is oh so nice.
2022-07-05 15:35:15 <KipIngram   > I do think Forth offers nice possibilities for "small threads" / green threads.  Especially a Forth that doesn't load up on register usage the way mine does.  Just having to save the instruction pointer and the stack pointer - that's pretty nice.  I use almost every register, so my task switches wouldn't really be much better than with any other language.
2022-07-05 15:36:04 <KipIngram   > Using the SIMD instructions would increase the context switching overhead too, quite a lot.
2022-07-05 15:36:26 <KipIngram   > siraben: I think I agree with that (SIMD -> single core).
2022-07-05 15:37:16 <KipIngram   > You might be able to do SIMD  on a "primary" core, but offload certain tasks to others.
2022-07-05 15:38:10 <KipIngram   > I.e., let one core serve as a "SIMD coprocessor" or something like that.
2022-07-05 15:38:53 <KipIngram   > Splitting things up functionally like that should help with cache thrashing too.
2022-07-05 15:39:26 <KipIngram   > Someone here pointed me at this a couple of years ago:
2022-07-05 15:39:28 <KipIngram   > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow-based_programming
2022-07-05 15:39:39 <KipIngram   > Looks like a good model for avoiding resource conflicts.
2022-07-05 15:42:33 <KipIngram   > Oh man - I'm already really liking the guy that's writing that book, siraben.
2022-07-05 15:42:42 <KipIngram   > Seems like a thoroughly decent guy.
2022-07-05 15:43:07 <KipIngram   > When someone says "you can't give me any money," that's usually a good sign.
2022-07-05 15:49:21 <Zarutian_HTC> KipIngram: that someone might have been me as I regulrarly had pointed out FlowBasedProgrammkng to this channel
2022-07-05 15:50:44 <Zarutian_HTC> Siraben or someone: I wasnt online when that book got linked. Could I have that link?
2022-07-05 15:54:35 <KipIngram   > I kind of thought it might have been you, but I didn't want to call out the wrong person.  :-(
2022-07-05 15:54:43 <KipIngram   > Sorry - getting some old man memory over here.
2022-07-05 15:55:14 <KipIngram   > It really seems a lot more suitable given contemporary things like cache design and so on.
2022-07-05 15:55:36 <KipIngram   > More suitable that the really fine-grain parallelism that was all the rage in academic publications when I was in school.
2022-07-05 15:56:01 <KipIngram   > A lot of that stuff would focus on exploiting parallelism in arithmetic expressions and stuff like that.
2022-07-05 15:56:21 <Zarutian_HTC> there is a limit to such
2022-07-05 15:56:22 <KipIngram   > Which is interesting, but not terribly practical given our hardware constraints.
2022-07-05 16:10:05 <KipIngram   > So, I've been trying to scrape the barnacles off of my old transistor circuits knowledge.  Tons of resources for that online, but most of them are rather superficial.  This site looks pretty good, though:
2022-07-05 16:10:06 <KipIngram   > https://www.eeeguide.com/comparison-of-different-biasing-circuits/
2022-07-05 16:10:24 <KipIngram   > That's just the page I happen to be looking at now, but they're all linked together.
2022-07-05 16:12:19 <Zarutian_HTC> thanks
2022-07-05 16:36:17 <KipIngram   > Wow - this is a really good, *thorough* treatment of biasing.  Very good stuff.
2022-07-05 20:34:20 <Zarutian_HTC2> gagh! I been searching for a spefic javascript snippet for a long time now
2022-07-05 20:35:10 <Zarutian_HTC2> it was basically the names decompression algorithm from one of the old Final Fantasy games
2022-07-05 20:36:31 <Zarutian_HTC2> the irritation is that google has become so cackhanded
2022-07-05 20:37:47 <thrig       > or the internet has too much crap on it
2022-07-05 20:38:08 <Zarutian_HTC2> seod crap mostly
2022-07-05 20:39:21 <Zarutian_HTC2> 
ACTION looks at an promising ROM map

2022-07-05 21:24:27 <siraben     > @Zarutian_HTC:libera.chat: https://en.algorithmica.org/hpc/
2022-07-05 21:53:53 <dinklebink  > I can use Forth as an assembler
2022-07-05 21:54:07 <dinklebink  > does that mean I can make words out of assembly functions and operands and stuff?
2022-07-05 21:58:23 <imode       > it'd be weird if you couldn't.
2022-07-05 21:58:52 <dinklebink  > so I can use Forth as a macro assembler, no?
2022-07-05 21:58:57 <dinklebink  > if I make words out of words out of words
2022-07-05 22:01:37 <imode       > that's kind of the point.
2022-07-05 22:01:47 <imode       > you can compose words together to make different words.
2022-07-05 22:02:24 <imode       > like, bottom to top, from built-ins to your program, it's all just dictionary lookups, compilation, etc.
2022-07-05 22:29:35 <dinklebink  > if C and Unix are so intertwined how come suckless nerds don't run Unix on a C machine
2022-07-05 22:35:09 <imode       > define C machine.
2022-07-05 22:35:32 <dinklebink  > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit
2022-07-05 22:36:29 <imode       > probably because suckless as a philosophy doesn't work if you expect your tools to be used by more than a fraction of the already-niche field that you're broadly appealing to.
2022-07-05 22:36:39 <imode       > here's a really nice article. https://arrdem.com/2022/07/04/superficial_simplicity/
2022-07-05 22:36:40 <dinklebink  > this isn't even what I meant
2022-07-05 22:37:35 <imode       > and, it's because consumers don't buy C machines.
2022-07-05 22:37:47 <dinklebink  > shame
2022-07-05 22:37:53 <imode       > because there are none.
2022-07-05 22:38:01 <dinklebink  > yeah I can't find an example of one
2022-07-05 22:38:08 <dinklebink  > this isn't even a C machine that I linked it's just optimized for C
2022-07-05 22:38:12 <dinklebink  > I've found lisp machiens
2022-07-05 22:38:14 <dinklebink  > machines*
2022-07-05 22:38:18 <imode       > question dinklebink.
2022-07-05 22:38:20 <imode       > how old are you?
2022-07-05 22:38:27 <dinklebink  > imode, 25
2022-07-05 22:38:44 <dinklebink  > idk if you can tell but if I took suckless types seriously I wouldn't be here
2022-07-05 22:38:44 <imode       > mm.
2022-07-05 22:38:51 <imode       > fair, yeah.
2022-07-05 22:38:53 <dinklebink  > what I said was a serious question
2022-07-05 22:39:01 <imode       > that was a serious answer.
2022-07-05 22:39:07 <dinklebink  > yeah that's fair
2022-07-05 22:39:17 <dinklebink  > it does seem like it could be a straightforward thing though in theory
2022-07-05 22:39:30 <dinklebink  > there are people that like every single piece of software on their PC to be in C
2022-07-05 22:39:34 <dinklebink  > and some people manage it for sure
2022-07-05 22:39:50 <imode       > there is a kernel (heh) of truth to the idea of "simple computing", but the problem is that, historically, we've had... no idea what that actually meant.
2022-07-05 22:40:13 <imode       > even forth isn't that simple. brainfuck is simple. a turing machine is simple. various automata are simple.
2022-07-05 22:40:15 <dinklebink  > all I know is that a lot of the suckless software I love
2022-07-05 22:40:54 <imode       > simple doesn't mean better, simple means you're starting with a very small kernel of "truth" and have to derive the rest of the world from that.
2022-07-05 22:40:58 <dinklebink  > imode, I like Forth because it, to me, is the closest I can get to stuff like Brainfuck without it just being mind numbingly unusable, the truth is I like designing simple CPUs from gates and working in ASM, I don't want abstraction
2022-07-05 22:41:07 <dinklebink  > but that's bc I do this all as a hobby, not for work
2022-07-05 22:41:19 <dinklebink  > Forth lets me work at the level of computing that I have the most fun with
2022-07-05 22:41:23 <imode       > wanna hear a story?
2022-07-05 22:41:26 <dinklebink  > sure
2022-07-05 22:41:58 <imode       > been working on a fun project for a while now around "next-generation computing". my partner and I were looking around at the various formal models of computation available.
2022-07-05 22:42:23 <imode       > models of computation are a good basis point because.. they're models. they have the minimal number of "things" you can think about in order to express an idea relative to the model.
2022-07-05 22:42:28 <dinklebink  > by the way, as much as you shit on suckless, it is what brought me here
2022-07-05 22:42:38 <dinklebink  > a lot of the suckless adherents rep Forth really hard
2022-07-05 22:42:44 <dinklebink  > some call it the greatest programming language
2022-07-05 22:43:15 <imode       > my partner and I were both imperative people, but we didn't like the lack of flexibility of turing machines.
2022-07-05 22:43:32 <imode       > hard to actually move data around, do inserts in the middle of the tape, etc.
2022-07-05 22:43:44 <imode       > practical problems when you try to write some toy programs in it.
2022-07-05 22:44:15 <imode       > we eventually settled out on string rewriting to "base the world" around. the idea was "let's have a bunch of string rewriting interpreters talk to eachother and form larger programs".
2022-07-05 22:44:30 <Zarutian_HTC2> siraben: thx
2022-07-05 22:44:39 <imode       > string rewriting, or production systems, are equally simple. your code consists of lists of `lhs -> rhs` rules, where each side of the rule is a string.
2022-07-05 22:45:02 <imode       > your system state is a string, and each "tick", the rewrite engine looks at the string, tries to find a substring that matches the `lhs` of each rule, and replace it with the `rhs`.
2022-07-05 22:45:11 <imode       > iterated find/replace. that's something simple, right? a third grader could do that.
2022-07-05 22:45:43 <imode       > we got to the point of doing complex control flow, simulating random access memory, and benchmarking our arithmetic against python.
2022-07-05 22:46:16 <imode       > we won out significantly. a single, arbitrary rewrite was always less than 10ns.
2022-07-05 22:46:39 <imode       > with input output primitives, my partner wrote a fractal mandlebrot renderer in it.
2022-07-05 22:46:50 <imode       > by doing some trivial compilation.
2022-07-05 22:47:09 <imode       > does all of this sound cool? building the world up from simple string substitutions, and actually having it go fast?
2022-07-05 22:47:45 <imode       > we were drunk on the idea that we could actually build hardware to accommodate this, and I _still_ have the designs for it.
2022-07-05 22:47:53 <dinklebink  > I mean yeah, it's the definition of boot strapping
2022-07-05 22:48:05 <imode       > we dropped it because it became impossible to compose programs.
2022-07-05 22:48:59 <Zarutian_HTC2> imode: you read throuh the book SICP, no?
2022-07-05 22:49:02 <imode       > how do you wrangle rule overlaps between two programs acting on the same string. how do you even run two programs simultaneously? there are things like communicating grammar systems, but they are, in principal, separate "processes" communicating with eachother.
2022-07-05 22:49:08 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC2: when I was younger.
2022-07-05 22:50:01 <imode       > dinklebink: the idea was simple. but just because it was simple, doesn't mean it was a good fit. we eventually built a forth-like compiler for it, and then said "why not just build a better 2stack machine instead".
2022-07-05 22:50:35 <dinklebink  > I think the mentality is really misunderstood tbh
2022-07-05 22:50:37 <Zarutian_HTC2> primitives, means of composition, and means of abstraction, part of it not sticking with you?
2022-07-05 22:50:41 <dinklebink  > none of that has anything to do with anything I'm doing
2022-07-05 22:51:11 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC2: why do you think we dropped the idea?
2022-07-05 22:51:23 <dinklebink  > I installed BSD with dwm and stuff and found it just worked and my computer ran way faster, I also learned a lot in the process
2022-07-05 22:51:24 <dinklebink  > that's really it
2022-07-05 22:51:37 <dinklebink  > and I also do this stuff as a hobby, not for work, so I find that enjoyable
2022-07-05 22:51:50 <dinklebink  > no matter how many times I'm told suckless stuff isn't functional that's just never been true
2022-07-05 22:51:54 <dinklebink  > in my experience
2022-07-05 22:52:06 <imode       > the larger point I was making is that a lot of "simple" stuff falls apart when you try to do complex things with it that're larger than toy examples.
2022-07-05 22:52:17 <dinklebink  > who cares
2022-07-05 22:52:23 <dinklebink  > I don't care what you do with your life or computer
2022-07-05 22:52:28 <imode       > and that anything that starts out simple has complex things built on it.
2022-07-05 22:52:47 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: the string substition on? Well, as you said. No way to resolve conflicts between programs being composed together. A lack of abstraction basically
2022-07-05 22:52:54 <dinklebink  > I'm not telling you to do anything, I've just noticed I don't need as much complexity in my software as I've been told that I need
2022-07-05 22:52:58 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: yeah, exactly.
2022-07-05 22:53:09 <imode       > dinklebink: stop being offended for one second lmao.
2022-07-05 22:53:28 <dinklebink  > I'm not offended, I've just heard this shpiel thirty times
2022-07-05 22:53:40 <dinklebink  > I just don't care what you do with your computer or how you use them for a living
2022-07-05 22:53:51 <dinklebink  > I'm not telling you to do anything
2022-07-05 22:53:53 <imode       > it has nothing to do with what I personally use or do.
2022-07-05 22:53:57 <dinklebink  > I'm just noticing a lot of this software works for me
2022-07-05 22:54:08 <imode       > cool, then use it.
2022-07-05 22:54:13 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: which is one of the ?emergent/implied? lessons of SICP iirc
2022-07-05 22:54:39 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: the real problem was we thought tooling would solve it. arbitrary prefixes and active sites and all that.
2022-07-05 22:54:50 <dinklebink  > imode, exactly, no matter how many times I'm told the mentality is non-functional, and the software sucks, I've never found that to be true
2022-07-05 22:54:52 <imode       > turns out that the complexity shot up like a rocket when we did that.
2022-07-05 22:55:05 <imode       > dinklebink: I didn't say it was non-functional. simple things are certainly functional.
2022-07-05 22:55:13 <imode       > but you'll have to do quite a bit to get to more complex things.
2022-07-05 22:55:20 <imode       > not you specifically.
2022-07-05 22:55:22 <dinklebink  > The complexity in computers and software is built for complex tasks
2022-07-05 22:55:25 <imode       > you the programmer/person who wants to extend it.
2022-07-05 22:55:49 <dinklebink  > I'm not telling you to use an 8-bit CPU and Forth to design AI
2022-07-05 22:56:09 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: right. Which means that the base system lacked abstraction as I see it from your description
2022-07-05 22:56:31 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: ehhh, you could _argue_ that (I would), but it was possible to build meta-tooling to solve the problem.
2022-07-05 22:56:52 <imode       > it had abstraction in the sense that you could actually build subprograms.
2022-07-05 22:57:03 <imode       > just that two programs occupying the same space, or including a library, was difficult.
2022-07-05 22:57:08 <imode       > it involved nonlocal transformations.
2022-07-05 22:57:45 <Zarutian_HTC> well, there is a reason why we dont just use turing tarpits like bf
2022-07-05 22:58:02 <dinklebink  > until someone can tell me why I should use Firefox or Chrome over surf or qutebrowser I won't write those guys off entirely, that's all
2022-07-05 22:58:51 <imode       > is the functionality of surf or qutebrowser a subset of firefox or chrome?
2022-07-05 22:58:52 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: I highly revommend Guy Steeles jr oopsla 96 talk of growing a language
2022-07-05 22:58:54 <imode       > and if so whata is the subset.
2022-07-05 22:58:57 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: seen it.
2022-07-05 22:59:02 <imode       > the article I linked has it.
2022-07-05 22:59:17 <dinklebink  > imode, I would say so, they're simple clients built on top of webkit or qt
2022-07-05 22:59:24 <imode       > lmfao.
2022-07-05 22:59:33 <imode       > you think webkit and qt are "simple"?
2022-07-05 22:59:52 <imode       > that's the software equivalent of "I wanna build a car. Let me just start off with a pre-built car."
2022-07-05 23:00:15 <dinklebink  > they're simple clients built on top of webkit or qt
2022-07-05 23:00:23 <Zarutian_HTC> qt is an gui toolkit in this context, no?
2022-07-05 23:00:26 <imode       > then you have no reason not to use them, I guess.
2022-07-05 23:00:32 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: it also includes a web framework.
2022-07-05 23:00:36 <dinklebink  > they're simple clients built on top of webkit or qt
2022-07-05 23:00:36 <dinklebink  > they're simple clients built on top of webkit or qt
2022-07-05 23:00:37 <dinklebink  > they're simple clients built on top of webkit or qt
2022-07-05 23:00:42 <dinklebink  > can you read or no
2022-07-05 23:00:50 <imode       > spamming works to get you banned.
2022-07-05 23:00:57 <dinklebink  > I'm not sure where I called webkit or qt simple
2022-07-05 23:00:57 <imode       > can you read that.
2022-07-05 23:01:09 <dinklebink  > ban me when you tell me where I called them simple
2022-07-05 23:01:28 <imode       > it doesn't require a lot to not get angry.
2022-07-05 23:01:34 <dinklebink  > don't ban me then, ez
2022-07-05 23:02:16 <imode       > my point is their philosophy is usually bullshit when you just #include <thing-that-does-what-I-want> and claim that this is where software engineering needs to go.
2022-07-05 23:02:24 <imode       > other people did the hard work lmao.
2022-07-05 23:02:41 <imode       > I can whip up a fucking webkit wrapper in a weekend.
2022-07-05 23:02:42 <dinklebink  > thanks that's amazing
2022-07-05 23:02:59 <dinklebink  > so why should I use Firefox or Chrome over surf or qutebrowser
2022-07-05 23:03:05 <Zarutian_HTC> oh I see like an simple tcl script using extended Themed Toolkit to display say the propriopreceptive status of a robot as a 3d model in one of the window panes
2022-07-05 23:03:11 <imode       > go ahead and use those, they're perfectly fine.
2022-07-05 23:03:32 <imode       > you could also write your own and use it lmao.
2022-07-05 23:03:42 <dinklebink  > nobody has ever claimed that the guys who wrote surf wrote a web engine
2022-07-05 23:03:44 <imode       > in fact, do it! use gforth to do it.
2022-07-05 23:04:04 <imode       > good first learning project.
2022-07-05 23:04:09 <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION hand imode a sea of nor gates in dips

2022-07-05 23:04:26 <dinklebink  > but the point is, just bc webkit is complex, doesn't mean glue code on top of it to render it to my screen has to be
2022-07-05 23:04:44 <imode       > is that all you think firefox is?
2022-07-05 23:05:04 <dinklebink  > no, it's much more than that, but whatever firefox is doing is turning it into something that can barely run on my old laptop
2022-07-05 23:05:08 <dinklebink  > whereas qutebrowser is fast
2022-07-05 23:05:17 <dinklebink  > so whatever it's doing is a net loss to me
2022-07-05 23:05:18 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: it isnt? well maybe with v8 bolted on
2022-07-05 23:05:34 <imode       > I don't think Firefox uses v8, does it?
2022-07-05 23:05:44 <imode       > ...wait does qutebrowser not support javascript.
2022-07-05 23:05:48 <dinklebink  > it does
2022-07-05 23:05:56 <imode       > whew.
2022-07-05 23:06:09 <dinklebink  > it's literally just a frontend for WebKit or QtWebENgine
2022-07-05 23:06:35 <Zarutian_HTC> I have no idea, stopped using it when they made many of my faviourite extentions impossible
2022-07-05 23:06:36 <imode       > nobody in this room should be telling anybody else to not use software that works for them.
2022-07-05 23:07:20 <imode       > separate the idea of software preference from software development philosophy preference. they are not equivalent.
2022-07-05 23:07:24 <imode       > I am strictly speaking on the latter.
2022-07-05 23:07:40 <imode       > if that's your confusion, let it be addressed.
2022-07-05 23:08:27 <dinklebink  > All I'm saying is, without these people, my old laptop wouldn't be functional, we'd have to just throw it out or something, their software and mentality, software they recommend, etc. has transformed it into something that's much faster than a newer laptop right next to it with an AMD Ryzen running Windows 11
2022-07-05 23:08:38 <dinklebink  > But like I said, they're idiots
2022-07-05 23:08:58 <dinklebink  > I went into the suckless IRC and this guy told me to use links+ as a browser, and I asked if it supported JS and he said "no but you don't need JS"
2022-07-05 23:09:15 <Zarutian_HTC> MicroSoft Windows 11 is bloated
2022-07-05 23:09:17 <dinklebink  > and I wanted to tell him off to the point that I surely would've gotten banned because that's something I constantly run into with these people
2022-07-05 23:09:47 <Zarutian_HTC> dinklebink: know exactly the type
2022-07-05 23:09:49 <dinklebink  > Zarutian_HTC, that's what I mean, if it wasn't for finding that suckless community, I never would've even realized how much I was able to replace what I was using with simpler stuff
2022-07-05 23:09:50 <imode       > windows is probably why your laptop isn't running well, but that's beside the point. I used i3 and dwm for years before swapping to KDE (on a more powerful system).
2022-07-05 23:10:10 <imode       > so, violently agree with me more if you want. you should use software that works for you.
2022-07-05 23:10:15 <imode       > I definitely did.
2022-07-05 23:11:06 <imode       > just know that their philosophy is not generally applicable. it's barely even specifically applicable. thin software existed before they came along.
2022-07-05 23:11:21 <dinklebink  > I guess what I mean is, the types that get into this stuff are often not even people who work in IT or programmers, just people sick of bloat on their desktops/basic servers, for that community, the mentality/software is extremely useful, before I found some of that software I had never even been able to use linux without a DE, for example
2022-07-05 23:11:59 <imode       > that's kinda fucked up but I wouldn't attribute the credit for your discovery of "bloat doesn't need to be a thing" to them entirely.
2022-07-05 23:12:16 <dinklebink  > I attribute it to them, nothing else had made me aware
2022-07-05 23:12:17 <imode       > like. you're running linux.
2022-07-05 23:12:21 <dinklebink  > so I literally have to attribute it to them
2022-07-05 23:12:27 <dinklebink  > I'm not, FreeBSD
2022-07-05 23:12:32 <imode       > okay, you're running FreeBSD.
2022-07-05 23:12:48 <Zarutian_HTC> what I have realized recently is that I hate purety spiral woreshipers. Be it on about 'software license', 'veganism', or 'suckless'
2022-07-05 23:12:48 <imode       > and you never once thought that windows' "bloat" wasn't required.
2022-07-05 23:13:07 <imode       > but you ran it.. anyway?
2022-07-05 23:13:09 <imode       > why'd you run FreeBSD?
2022-07-05 23:13:16 <dinklebink  > no I moved to FreeBSD after
2022-07-05 23:13:21 <dinklebink  > I knew windows bloat wasn't required
2022-07-05 23:13:24 <dinklebink  > but I thought that was it
2022-07-05 23:13:28 <dinklebink  > I didn't know what a DE was
2022-07-05 23:13:43 <dinklebink  > I didn't know that there were simpler alternatives, I didn't know I could run a music player from the command line
2022-07-05 23:13:48 <dinklebink  > I was linux babby mode
2022-07-05 23:13:58 <Zarutian_HTC> I see
2022-07-05 23:14:14 <imode       > everybody's been there.
2022-07-05 23:14:24 <Zarutian_HTC> 'broke your brain' kind of moment?
2022-07-05 23:14:29 <dinklebink  > imode, my point is, a lot of the evangelists aren't even programmers, just nerds who didn't even know there were alternatives
2022-07-05 23:14:46 <imode       > those who don't explore tend to worship things they found first.
2022-07-05 23:14:55 <dinklebink  > I've met plenty that got into programming through it though, having a tiny C program that I can edit and reprogram myself has made me more interested in programming
2022-07-05 23:15:05 <Zarutian_HTC> bottle on stick shakers
2022-07-05 23:15:08 <dinklebink  > Like obviously there's a place for this
2022-07-05 23:15:31 <dinklebink  > it's just, the philosophy, to me at least, has nothing to do with software development in the commercial world
2022-07-05 23:15:42 <dinklebink  > but that's kind of the point, they hate the current IT industry entirely
2022-07-05 23:16:10 <imode       > put it to you this way, dinklebink. I'm 26. I've been writing programs and doing digital logic design since I was 13 with 6502 assembly, a NES emulator and a copy of Logisim.
2022-07-05 23:16:41 <dinklebink  > sometimes I get it though, like, when I worked from home I applied the philosophy a lot and it would help my workflow in simple ways, it often put me ahead of coworkers in small ways
2022-07-05 23:16:57 <imode       > trust me when I say that the philosophy existed long before them and that they appropriated it purely to feel and act superior.
2022-07-05 23:17:05 <imode       > it's why they are literal nazis.
2022-07-05 23:17:08 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: Logisim Evolution or just the original?
2022-07-05 23:17:10 <dinklebink  > no I don't think they invented the philosophy
2022-07-05 23:17:12 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: OG.
2022-07-05 23:17:28 <dinklebink  > I just mean that for people that don't work in IT, it's an insane thing to find
2022-07-05 23:17:30 <imode       > dinklebink: right but it's _independent_ from them. is what I wanna impress.
2022-07-05 23:17:43 <imode       > I didn't work in IT. I was just a curious kid.
2022-07-05 23:17:45 <dinklebink  > "you mean I can do everything outside of a web browser with extremely performant terminal programs?"
2022-07-05 23:18:03 <dinklebink  > it's independent from them but I've found a lot of great alternatives through them
2022-07-05 23:18:06 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: this would've been around 2009.
2022-07-05 23:19:14 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: that 'literal nazis' comment is more apt than you realize as the nazis woreshiped ayrians of old which mostly were vikings or such
2022-07-05 23:19:30 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: ..yeah... torchlight marches... all that fun shit.
2022-07-05 23:20:24 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: no, i mean in the sense that the nazis were literal wannabees
2022-07-05 23:20:30 <imode       > yeah.
2022-07-05 23:20:31 <imode       > lmao.
2022-07-05 23:20:41 <imode       > fuckin' LARPers.
2022-07-05 23:20:47 <dinklebink  > I'll give you an example
2022-07-05 23:21:07 <dinklebink  > https://github.com/mayfrost/guides/blob/master/ALTERNATIVES.md this is the most useful stuff to me
2022-07-05 23:21:22 <Zarutian_HTC> oy! dont knock the LARPers! the kind with rubbery plastic swords that us
2022-07-05 23:21:27 <Zarutian_HTC> is*
2022-07-05 23:23:55 <KipIngram   > Well, I'm happy to have that link to lightweight stuff bookmarked.
2022-07-05 23:24:52 <dinklebink  > KipIngram, yeah, this is the appeal to me
2022-07-05 23:24:53 <Zarutian_HTC2> 
ACTION still has not been arsed to find out why his phone does not seem to renew the dhcp leash in time and thence falling of the wifi

2022-07-05 23:25:07 <dinklebink  > every time I switch to something lightweight I find it just werks 90% of the time, if not, I move one space to the left
2022-07-05 23:25:27 <Zarutian_HTC2> twerks* ?
2022-07-05 23:25:43 <dinklebink  > and when I made a system entirely of that stuff, would you believe it, it was extremely performant, and I can now even easily switch to an ARM or RISC-V system without losing the ability to do things
2022-07-05 23:25:51 <KipIngram   > I like the same sort of thing.  I don't try to use such things universally, but I am using weechat-curses right now for IRC.
2022-07-05 23:26:05 <dinklebink  > imode, you were right though, glue coding a browser together in Forth sounds fun
2022-07-05 23:26:06 <KipIngram   > It's the only way I've ever done IRC, and it's plenty for me.
2022-07-05 23:26:40 <KipIngram   > I found an article with a (not as extensive as yours) set of little command line jewels a few months ago.
2022-07-05 23:26:57 <KipIngram   > I could probably go scrounge it up from a chat session with an acquaintance.
2022-07-05 23:26:58 <dinklebink  > I found another one recently from some Forth evangelist
2022-07-05 23:26:59 <dinklebink  > lemme find it
2022-07-05 23:27:00 <dinklebink  > it's great
2022-07-05 23:27:38 <KipIngram   > I'll see if I can find mine.  This article wasn't as 'serious' - but I found a lot of the items to be "pleasing."
2022-07-05 23:29:05 <dinklebink  > the great thing about that list is it doesn't automatically assume everything in the terminal is minimal, it does a ranking
2022-07-05 23:34:37 <KipIngram   > That's right - the thing I saw was tricks with curl and wget:
2022-07-05 23:34:39 <KipIngram   > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/get-curly-10-useful-things-can-curl/
2022-07-05 23:34:53 <KipIngram   > https://www.pair.com/support/kb/paircloud-downloading-files-with-wget/
2022-07-05 23:35:42 <KipIngram   > I just wasn't aware all those things were possible with those tools.
2022-07-05 23:36:05 <KipIngram   > One was a really nifty little weather report you can fetch from console.
2022-07-05 23:36:53 <KipIngram   > Like this:
2022-07-05 23:36:56 <KipIngram   > curl http://wttr.in/LOCATION
2022-07-05 23:37:21 <dinklebink  > yeah this is basically the entire appeal of that stuff to me
2022-07-05 23:37:29 <dinklebink  > a hundred thousand things I had no idea I had simpler ways of doing
2022-07-05 23:37:36 <KipIngram   > I've had a very long time love affair with the console.
2022-07-05 23:37:57 <dinklebink  > until last night I didn't even know that wayland is simpler than X, and if all I need to do is run qutebrowser, I no longer need to have X installed
2022-07-05 23:38:02 <KipIngram   > I've nothing against graphics; sometimes it's a godsend.
2022-07-05 23:38:19 <dinklebink  > I never even knew what wayland was before doing all this stuff
2022-07-05 23:38:20 <KipIngram   > But I just generally believe that the software world has been "over-graphiced"
2022-07-05 23:38:40 <KipIngram   > My system uses Wayland.
2022-07-05 23:38:54 <KipIngram   > Once in a while I run into things I can't do the usual way, and have to find a new way.
2022-07-05 23:45:39 <dinklebink  > KipIngram, https://github.com/173duprot/harm-less