2022-07-24 00:47:25 <KipIngram   > It sounds interesting.
2022-07-24 11:24:20 <KipIngram   > You know, I was thinking more last night about the synch vs. asynch thing.  It makes total sense to me that the industry "started" with synchronous circuitry.  Only a very small amount of logic was available in early integrated circuits - sharing the timing resources across all of it was the "cheapest" way to go, and things were slow so clock distribution wasn't an onerous problem, and on top of that the
2022-07-24 11:24:22 <KipIngram   > theory of synchronous design is very straightforward.
2022-07-24 11:24:47 <KipIngram   > But my guess is that the future is asynch.  All of those things I just listed have fairly well been "turned around."
2022-07-24 11:25:08 <KipIngram   > Well, except the last one - synch theory is still the simplest.
2022-07-24 11:25:44 <KipIngram   > But the clock distribution problem strikes me as just getting harder and harder to resolve as the amount of logic and the speed of the logic both grow.
2022-07-24 11:25:55 <KipIngram   > I think it would eventually just break down.
2022-07-24 11:26:44 <KipIngram   > It's also not at all surprising that over time we've seen hybrid designs - synch modules communicating asynchronously with one another.
2022-07-24 11:33:10 <KipIngram   > That doesn't neessarily have to be given up - it would always be the case that there would be some (significant) scale at which synch logic would continue to work fine.
2022-07-24 11:33:30 <KipIngram   > And it would probably continue to let you cram more functionality into a given amount of logic.
2022-07-24 11:37:24 <KipIngram   > The main potential issue I see with that is risk of metastability.  The outside, async signals would have no idea where a module was in its own synchronous cycle, so you could get metastable events at any time.
2022-07-24 14:11:02 <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION has been slowly implementing a variant of his fcpu16 in ethereum vm bytecode because "Solidity" and such is garbage

2022-07-24 15:04:59 <KipIngram   > This is so you could use fcpu16 code on ethereum?
2022-07-24 15:09:38 <Zarutian_HTC> yes, but mainly because I want to write base layer for proper 'smart contracts' in something better than the crappy offerings available
2022-07-24 15:11:07 <KipIngram   > Got it.
2022-07-24 15:15:54 <imode       > wonder what'd happen if the nodes in a GA144 chip had fixed behaviors instead of programmable ones.
2022-07-24 15:18:37 <imode       > probably something like RALA.
2022-07-24 15:21:44 <siraben     > Zarutian_HTC: how are you emulating a return stack?
2022-07-24 15:22:15 <siraben     > the EVM only has a data stack which makes Forth-like execution awkward, I simulated a return stack in memory but it's probably quite expensive in terms of gas costs
2022-07-24 15:22:42 <siraben     > (for those unfamiliar with Ethereum: every operation has a "gas" cost and more gas = higher transaction fee)
2022-07-24 15:23:47 <Zarutian_HTC> siraben: by having both stacks in the memory
2022-07-24 15:27:48 <Zarutian_HTC> and I do not care that it is more gas using that way
2022-07-24 15:46:46 <KipIngram   > Wait a minute - this things state history actually spools into the block chain?
2022-07-24 15:47:37 <Zarutian_HTC> into a blockchain
2022-07-24 15:47:57 <KipIngram   > Yeah - sorry.  So the whole history of a program execution would be there?
2022-07-24 15:48:20 <thrig       > I wonder if you can put a `yes` call into there
2022-07-24 15:48:41 <Zarutian_HTC> no, just the changed Storage and contract rom-code
2022-07-24 15:51:26 <KipIngram   > There's some kind of missing piece in my grokkery of this.
2022-07-24 15:51:45 <KipIngram   > I understand fairly well how the bitcoin process works.
2022-07-24 15:51:52 <KipIngram   > But I've not looked at any of the others.
2022-07-24 15:52:06 <Zarutian_HTC> basically each 'contract' when 'called' by eather externally signed message or other 'contract' runs in a new Ethvm instance
2022-07-24 15:52:12 <KipIngram   > And I see the purpose of that the establishment of a trusted ledger.
2022-07-24 15:52:14 <imode       > some node in the ethereum network picks up the thing to "run", runs the thing, broadcasts the results to other nodes.
2022-07-24 15:52:48 <imode       > each run requires some resource tokens.
2022-07-24 15:53:15 <imode       > it's a poorly engineered system.
2022-07-24 15:53:23 <imode       > but it's because it's designed to be grifted. :P
2022-07-24 15:53:25 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: oh indeed
2022-07-24 15:53:28 <KipIngram   > Like how each block is a product of the previous block in bitcoin.
2022-07-24 15:53:35 <KipIngram   > Whoever finds a valid one first wins.
2022-07-24 15:53:52 <KipIngram   > Well, the previous block and new transactions.
2022-07-24 15:53:53 <imode       > yeah. except your "winning" involves running a program.
2022-07-24 15:54:10 <imode       > on a virtual machine who's instructions consume tokens you use to pay for its execution.
2022-07-24 15:54:59 <KipIngram   > What is the ultimate purpose - whatever corresponds to adding transactions to the bitcoin ledger?
2022-07-24 15:55:03 <imode       > on the face of it, it's not a terrible idea: if you have a big ass distributed network of computing power, you _should_ be able to pay for some resourcing.
2022-07-24 15:55:16 <imode       > but the blockchain concept is a shitty idea.
2022-07-24 15:55:23 <imode       > the ultimate purpose is grift.
2022-07-24 15:55:29 <imode       > same as BTC.
2022-07-24 15:55:53 <KipIngram   > I don't understand that.  I regard the purpose of bitcoin the establishment of that ledger.
2022-07-24 15:56:13 <KipIngram   > The getting of transactions "onto the ledger."
2022-07-24 15:56:34 <KipIngram   > Which everyone regards as the "real" transactions.
2022-07-24 15:56:37 <imode       > you don't need to spend leagues of wasted electricity to build a distributed ledger.
2022-07-24 15:56:49 <KipIngram   > I agree - proof of work is fraught with problems.
2022-07-24 15:57:01 <KipIngram   > People talk about it running planetary commerce, but that just can't happen.
2022-07-24 15:57:06 <KipIngram   > For that reason.
2022-07-24 15:57:34 <KipIngram   > Electricity and also storage - anyone who wants the full security of the system has to have a copy of the blockchain.
2022-07-24 15:57:43 <imode       > proof of work is a giant tire fire (almost literally), proof of stake is banking without regulation.
2022-07-24 15:57:44 <KipIngram   > First thing you know we'll be using more storage for that than anything else.
2022-07-24 15:58:01 <imode       > https://web3isgoinggreat.com/
2022-07-24 15:58:05 <KipIngram   > If we really tryied to scale it, I mean.
2022-07-24 15:58:08 <KipIngram   > tried
2022-07-24 15:58:13 <imode       > yeah, hence the stupidity of the whole endeavor.
2022-07-24 15:58:22 <imode       > it wasn't engineered to be a serious thing, it was engineered to be a grift.
2022-07-24 15:58:36 <imode       > and that linked site really does capture all of that.
2022-07-24 15:58:43 <KipIngram   > Well, I did some mining and am holding a small number of bitcoin.  At times in the last few years it's been "worth" more than anything else I own.
2022-07-24 15:58:56 <KipIngram   > I'm not wanting to get rid of 'em until later, though.
2022-07-24 15:59:08 <imode       > how much.
2022-07-24 15:59:18 <KipIngram   > about 6 btc.
2022-07-24 15:59:26 <KipIngram   > Still freshly mined.
2022-07-24 15:59:38 <thrig       > I've had to put in a number of anti-spam rules to keep the bitcoin religious types off the mx
2022-07-24 15:59:46 <imode       > my man's just casually carrying around $132k on a system that'll be crashing in the next few months.
2022-07-24 15:59:51 <imode       > I'd cash in while you could.
2022-07-24 15:59:55 <Zarutian_HTC> neat, deprecates more slowly than country scrip
2022-07-24 16:00:20 <KipIngram   > The wallet has a paper backup system - that's in a safe deposit box.
2022-07-24 16:00:42 <imode       > it'll be neat to watch it all fall.
2022-07-24 16:00:43 <KipIngram   > And I've got the source code - if I ever had to I could figure it out myself.
2022-07-24 16:00:58 <KipIngram   > I know; I've watched it semi-do-that a time or to.
2022-07-24 16:01:02 <KipIngram   > I try not to think about it.
2022-07-24 16:01:12 <imode       > how long did you mine it for?
2022-07-24 16:01:15 <imode       > and with what?
2022-07-24 16:01:34 <Zarutian_HTC> let me guess a programable seiko watch
2022-07-24 16:01:34 <KipIngram   > ASIC miners.  I don't really know how long I ran them for.  until they died.
2022-07-24 16:01:53 <imode       > Zarutian_HTC: I made $30k off of dogecoin I mined on my friend's android phone in 2014.
2022-07-24 16:02:04 <KipIngram   > Oh, nifty.  :-)
2022-07-24 16:02:20 <imode       > just for literal shits.
2022-07-24 16:02:20 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: woof :-þ
2022-07-24 16:02:32 <KipIngram   > My ex-son-in-law bougt a btc for about $17k, and as the price marched upward he had the biggest head you could imagine.
2022-07-24 16:02:44 <imode       > KipIngram: how much electricity did those things drain over their lifetime?
2022-07-24 16:02:46 <imode       > are we talking years?
2022-07-24 16:02:53 <KipIngram   > By the time it fell he was no longer a factor, but I had to wonder how he felt about that.
2022-07-24 16:03:25 <KipIngram   > Well, at the time it was barely break even.  I didn't keep a total.  But not very much compared to what the things were worth at the most recent highs.
2022-07-24 16:03:29 <KipIngram   > Not enough to count.
2022-07-24 16:03:44 <KipIngram   > This is a dice roll, basically.
2022-07-24 16:03:57 <imode       > yeah. a dice roll to burn electricity at the fastest rate possibe.
2022-07-24 16:03:59 <imode       > *possible.
2022-07-24 16:04:07 <imode       > fossil fuel companies love you.
2022-07-24 16:04:20 <KipIngram   > Well, not doing it any more.  :-)
2022-07-24 16:04:30 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: here is one weimark for your trouble
2022-07-24 16:05:00 <imode       > hah.
2022-07-24 16:05:04 <Zarutian_HTC> (or whatever that hyperinflated currency was named)
2022-07-24 16:05:16 <imode       > papeirschmark or something.
2022-07-24 16:06:43 <Zarutian_HTC> it just irritates me no end that there does not seem to be any unit of value measure stable enough for long term calculations and planning
2022-07-24 16:07:24 <imode       > maintaining wealth is a constant struggle for people starting off with zero to some epsilon.
2022-07-24 16:08:06 <Zarutian_HTC> logisticans often use kilowatthours as the cost unit for feasibility studies though
2022-07-24 16:09:57 <Zarutian_HTC> but yeah that fcpu16 impl is for me to see if I can do grift in higher density code tham ethereum vm supports natively
2022-07-24 16:10:11 <imode       > hahahaha.
2022-07-24 16:10:15 <imode       > I support your endeavor.
2022-07-24 16:13:46 <Zarutian_HTC> and I shudder over the so called ApplicationBinaryInterface that 'contracts' in Ethereum are supposed to support
2022-07-24 16:15:13 <Zarutian_HTC> for instance using first four bytes of a cryptographic hash of a functions 'signiture' just invites explotation
2022-07-24 16:15:58 <Zarutian_HTC> had the designers never heard of vanity prefix .onion addresses?
2022-07-24 16:20:51 <Zarutian_HTC> anyway, it was masterfully exploited by someone who arranged his .ShittyOpulenceLanguage utility to seem to call innocently named function in ERC20 or ERC21 compliant 'contracts' but actually called another that transfered those assets away
2022-07-24 16:52:08 <imode       > why are onion vanity addresses bad?
2022-07-24 16:55:56 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: they mirror the inner being of those that pick them
2022-07-24 16:56:20 <imode       > ah.
2022-07-24 16:56:31 <Zarutian_HTC> imode: naah, finding hash with the prefix you want basically
2022-07-24 16:57:26 <Zarutian_HTC> but truncating to that prefix only and use it as an selector? idiotic
2022-07-24 17:06:05 <imode       > oh, I get it now.
2022-07-24 17:06:10 <imode       > yeah that's the stupidest thing..