2022-11-29 01:57:37 <remexre     > welp, ended up writing a nasm patch lmao; here if anyone else wants to do this thing https://github.com/netwide-assembler/nasm/pull/48
2022-11-29 05:09:33 <Zarutian_iPad> hah, just came across a phrase that describes fully what I have noticed others do so much and try to impose on others: hurry sickness
2022-11-29 05:12:51 <Zarutian_iPad> as someone who has thought about the deep meaning of both “haste makes waste”, and “measure twice cut once”, hurry sickness is quite adept as one causal factor in mistakes
2022-11-29 05:13:47 <Zarutian_iPad> and in generating annoyance
2022-11-29 05:14:30 <boru        > I can relate. I have to train pointy haired managers on that topic often. Spend time now, or waste it later.
2022-11-29 05:15:01 <boru        > Old engineering saying: "on time, under budget, to spec: pick two, be lucky if you get one."
2022-11-29 05:15:30 <Zarutian_iPad> i gather that they are also often interrupting a task because something is so urgent
2022-11-29 05:16:29 <boru        > I blame the development process i.e. agile.
2022-11-29 05:16:37 <boru        > But I just say no.
2022-11-29 05:16:52 <boru        > It's better that things go wrong so that they learn from their mistakes.
2022-11-29 05:17:07 <Zarutian_iPad> agile is a newish name on old fad iirc
2022-11-29 05:17:17 <boru        > Stupid old fad.
2022-11-29 05:17:31 <boru        > Interation is good, but over a longer time scale.
2022-11-29 05:17:37 <boru        > e.g. spiral model.
2022-11-29 05:18:25 <boru        > No one really does agile fully, anyway. I've yet to work in a place where everyone can do everything and there are no specialists. People just take larger spiral-model-like tickets and split them up so that they fit into sprints.
2022-11-29 05:19:04 <boru        > Or how can one estimate how long an investigatory task or feasibility study will take. Many, many stupid ideas and fads collected together.
2022-11-29 05:19:58 <dave0       > Zarutian_iPad: "he who hesitates is lost"
2022-11-29 05:20:02 <boru        > I casually leave copies of The Tao of Programming, Mythical Man Month and Peopleware laying around in the hope that they'll actually read them.
2022-11-29 05:20:35 <Zarutian_iPad> an ancedote: for my health I often walk betwixt places. Some that are quite a ways from each other. I found that I often walk faster than many jogger achive over the same distance
2022-11-29 05:21:03 <Zarutian_iPad> dave0: look before you leap
2022-11-29 05:21:20 <boru        > It's a spectrum. There's no panacea.
2022-11-29 05:21:39 <boru        > You have design paralysis at one end, and flaming disaster at the other end.
2022-11-29 05:22:00 <Zarutian_iPad> but also, hesitation arises from uncernity, doubt and fear
2022-11-29 05:22:29 <boru        > I value my time, so I refuse to be at either of that spectrum.
2022-11-29 05:23:06 <Zarutian_iPad> be fearless in face of uncertainity, but also doubt your sureity
2022-11-29 05:23:39 <boru        > And so should you. Project managers are the new MBA. No background in engineering, but somehow think they know how engineering projects should happen.
2022-11-29 05:25:26 <Zarutian_iPad> wored under a project coordinator once. Rather sweet as he had no precived notions on how engineering projects should happen
2022-11-29 05:25:52 <boru        > Sounds great, if you're not the one carrying the can for the decisions.
2022-11-29 05:26:26 <Zarutian_iPad> coordinator is not a manager
2022-11-29 05:27:01 <boru        > I assumed synonymity; I've never worked on a project with a separate coordinator.
2022-11-29 05:27:26 <Zarutian_iPad> pretty much he was a blend of secretary and the projects agent
2022-11-29 05:27:48 <boru        > Something like an operations lead, or something?
2022-11-29 05:28:24 <Zarutian_iPad> if the project team needed something to acomplish a goal in the project but lacked time or gumption to go bother the managers he went
2022-11-29 05:29:11 <boru        > I see.
2022-11-29 05:29:20 <boru        > Something like a speaker to meat, I guess.
2022-11-29 05:29:29 <Zarutian_iPad> boru: did not lead per se, more like a trusted coffee boy so to speak
2022-11-29 05:29:34 <boru        > I think the best situation I've worked under, was a project where the lead was a systems engineer. Now that was a project that went smoothly.
2022-11-29 05:30:38 <Zarutian_iPad> the project lead was another guy
2022-11-29 05:30:45 <boru        > I see.
2022-11-29 05:31:29 <Zarutian_iPad> often the guy saddled with the bigger decisions
2022-11-29 05:33:20 <Zarutian_iPad> the coordinator was often the rubber duck for the project which alowed him to keep taps on what each project member was doing
2022-11-29 05:34:47 <Zarutian_iPad> without extracting a report or causing extra task load
2022-11-29 05:40:37 <boru        > Sounds reasonable.
2022-11-29 05:41:59 <Zarutian_iPad> sorry, what does the word “reasonable” mean?
2022-11-29 05:42:46 <Zarutian_iPad> can be reasoned about?
2022-11-29 05:43:10 <boru        > As in it sounds sensible to have someone like that.
2022-11-29 05:45:05 <Zarutian_iPad> right, the guy who set it up was in cognative studies and knew what task saturation and attention- and focus-fatigue meant
2022-11-29 05:46:24 <boru        > And context switches -- the cost of which is often overlooked.
2022-11-29 05:50:32 <Zarutian_iPad> here is an execerise to teach non programmers about the cost of context switches, ask them to add up the first 20 primes in their head and then keep chatting with them about buget numbers or other such to distract them.
2022-11-29 05:51:18 <Zarutian_iPad> you give them the incentive that their launch is on you if they get the answer correct
2022-11-29 08:04:51 <veltas      > remexre: Shame nasm didn't already have it, it's something i.e. GNU ld can do out the box
2022-11-29 08:04:59 <veltas      > So hopefully they merge your PR
2022-11-29 08:05:41 <veltas      > Also anything to do with implementing your forth is on-topic as far as I'm concerned
2022-11-29 08:10:24 <veltas      > IMO the useful part of agile+scrum (the most common flavour) is keeping track of stuff and working incrementally
2022-11-29 08:11:08 <veltas      > You need to keep track of stuff, and it's always valuable to work incrementally and get real value up-front as much as possible
2022-11-29 08:12:30 <veltas      > Understanding the benefit and rationale of the model is crucial, to too many people it's just a cargo cult (and 'agile' really is a cargo cult since nobody does 'real' agile as boru pointed out)
2022-11-29 08:13:18 <veltas      > I think to get programmers to care about this stuff in the first place, they had to really market it, so it was originally adopted by people that liked the branding and didn't understand the package
2022-11-29 08:13:24 <veltas      > e.g. "Extreme Programming"
2022-11-29 08:14:00 <veltas      > And the branding took over, people thought you had to do *everything* exactly like the recipe for it to work or ... who knows what would happen
2022-11-29 08:14:26 <veltas      > It's on-the-face dumb. Example: pair programming clearly works well sometimes, but it's clearly inappropriate to force on *everything*
2022-11-29 08:16:04 <veltas      > We're at the final faze of methodologies where they now adopt agile in totally different industries but everyone seems to think it means 'use Jira'
2022-11-29 08:16:27 <veltas      > Maximum adoption, zero utility
2022-11-29 08:16:35 <veltas      > phase*
2022-11-29 08:16:47 <boru        > Couldn't agree more.
2022-11-29 08:27:41 <olle        > I prefer the risk perspective + spiral method personally
2022-11-29 08:30:58 <olle        > Company culture and risk culture should always be discussed
2022-11-29 08:33:07 <boru        > Agile might work for things like web development, but it doesn't work for FPGAs or electronic design.
2022-11-29 08:33:28 <boru        > It boggles my mind when I see it applied to these fields.
2022-11-29 08:33:42 <boru        > Mostly at the behest of some PM who doesn't know any better.
2022-11-29 08:43:41 <olle        > Right
2022-11-29 09:14:06 <veltas      > It just turns into "electronic engineers using Jira"
2022-11-29 09:26:21 <KipIngram   > Well, I have *another* new manager at work.  This is like my 15th manager (not exaggerating) since the little company was acquired in 2012.
2022-11-29 09:26:34 <KipIngram   > This  last one lasted only 2-3 months.
2022-11-29 09:27:20 <KipIngram   > It's really stopped meaning much to me.
2022-11-29 09:27:37 <Zarutian_iPad> ya getting rid of the BOFH style?
2022-11-29 09:27:58 <KipIngram   > Hey, how does FIND work in gforth?  I've tried a few things and can't yet seem to get any sensible behavior from it.
2022-11-29 09:28:13 <boru        > The Master Programmer didn't realise that the mangers had come and gone.
2022-11-29 09:28:30 <KipIngram   > My find is simple: find <word> leaves either a CFA or 0 on the stack, and that's that.
2022-11-29 09:28:53 <KipIngram   > Non-immediate, etc.
2022-11-29 09:28:54 <Zarutian_iPad> perhaps it does like figforth did it
2022-11-29 09:28:59 <KipIngram   > Just as simple as it could be.
2022-11-29 09:29:07 <KipIngram   > Well, it doesn't seem to leave a flag either.
2022-11-29 09:29:21 <KipIngram   > even "find +" throws an error.
2022-11-29 09:29:23 <Zarutian_iPad> leaves cfa true or justfalse on stack
2022-11-29 09:29:36 <Zarutian_iPad> wierd
2022-11-29 09:29:39 <KipIngram   > maybe I've got a faulty install.
2022-11-29 09:30:08 <KipIngram   > find + throws a stack underflow error.
2022-11-29 09:33:02 <KipIngram   > ' seems to work ok.
2022-11-29 09:33:49 <KipIngram   > And ['] too.
2022-11-29 09:35:28 <veltas      > BL WORD + FIND .S <2> 94430467105224 -1  ok
2022-11-29 09:35:50 <veltas      > FIND takes a counted string, this is ANS Forth standard
2022-11-29 09:36:46 <veltas      > ( counted-str - counted-str 0 | immediate-xt -1 | not-immediate-xt 1)
2022-11-29 09:43:21 <KipIngram   > Aha.
2022-11-29 09:43:36 <KipIngram   > So FIND expects the word to already be parsed out into the word buffer?
2022-11-29 09:43:39 <KipIngram   > That makes sense.
2022-11-29 09:44:01 <Zarutian_iPad> yeah via BL WORD iirc
2022-11-29 09:44:25 <KipIngram   > That makes it unusable from interpreted mode, doesn't it?  Since the interpreter is also using the word buffer?
2022-11-29 09:44:45 <KipIngram   > Oh, no - I see.  It handles that.
2022-11-29 09:44:50 <KipIngram   > That seems to work.
2022-11-29 09:44:55 <KipIngram   > Ok, I think mystery solved.
2022-11-29 09:45:17 <KipIngram   > Well, ' is much more convenient, then.
2022-11-29 09:48:47 <veltas      > The point of FIND is to find a word given a string, WORD is one way of getting that string
2022-11-29 09:50:07 <veltas      > ' does the parsing for you, the way you were using FIND seems like you did just want '
2022-11-29 09:55:21 <KipIngram   > Yes.  It makes sense now.
2022-11-29 11:34:51 <Zarutian_iPad> 
ACTION watches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu-3E2tUpgU but does not get what the heck they mean by aura

2022-11-29 11:37:53 <Zarutian_iPad> reminds me of a semi prank that Queen of England pull on I think it was the Swedish ambassidor. She had invited him to her apartment to chat.
2022-11-29 11:38:06 <thrig       > artists can some up with some wacky notions
2022-11-29 11:39:09 <Zarutian_iPad> She offered him some brandy from an ornate crystal flask but he had to poor it himself as she had to go to the powder room
2022-11-29 11:40:00 <Zarutian_iPad> the flask was rather ackward thing and when fumbling with it, he dropped the flask and it smashed
2022-11-29 11:40:57 <Zarutian_iPad> the ambassidor stood there mortified when the queen got back
2022-11-29 11:41:51 <Zarutian_iPad> ”oh my goodness look at what you have done” she said and pulled a call rope for a footman
2022-11-29 11:43:15 <Zarutian_iPad> the footman came, saw what was up and said to the ambassidor “you are in trouble now” and then went to fetch dustpan and cleaning supplies
2022-11-29 11:44:07 <Zarutian_iPad> while the footman was gone, the queen looked inscruitably at the ambassidor
2022-11-29 11:44:46 <Zarutian_iPad> the ambassidor was sweating profusely by the time the footman came back
2022-11-29 11:45:47 <Zarutian_iPad> carrying a dustpad and brush, cleaning supplies, and a box with an identical crystal flask
2022-11-29 11:47:00 <Zarutian_iPad> turned out it was mass produced thing you could get for about 60 pounds or so
2022-11-29 11:48:10 <Zarutian_iPad> and the brandy was around that in price too
2022-11-29 11:50:02 <Zarutian_iPad> when it was obvious to the ambassidor what it happened the queen smiled
2022-11-29 11:52:03 <Zarutian_iPad> s/it h/had h/
2022-11-29 12:04:29 <Zarutian_iPad> thrig: I am not sure that is just artists
2022-11-29 12:06:53 <Zarutian_iPad> for instance there was, or should be if it hasnt, a sculpture made out of parts. Those parts go swapped out for identical ones every few days
2022-11-29 12:07:47 <Zarutian_iPad> the sculpture stayed exactly the same and the interval between swaps was random
2022-11-29 12:08:59 <Zarutian_iPad> it got people to really look at the sculpture
2022-11-29 18:39:22 <KipIngram   > Wait - why?
2022-11-29 18:39:36 <KipIngram   > If the replacement parts were identical then how did they even know they'd been replaced?
2022-11-29 18:48:02 <thrig       > ship of theseus
2022-11-29 18:49:53 <KipIngram   > Yeah, that's an interesting bit of philosophy there.
2022-11-29 18:49:57 <KipIngram   > And, well, us.
2022-11-29 18:50:09 <KipIngram   > All life.
2022-11-29 18:51:54 <thrig       > also, artists do wacky things. probably overconnected brains
2022-11-29 19:12:36 <KipIngram   > Philip K. Dick.  That's what I've always thought about him.
2022-11-29 19:12:48 <KipIngram   > Apparently he had a pretty hard time, brilliant as he was.
2022-11-29 19:13:22 <thrig       > starving artist is also a thing, for various reasons
2022-11-29 19:14:56 <KipIngram   > My wife read a book by... Malcolm Gladwell, called "Outliers."
2022-11-29 19:15:36 <KipIngram   > His claim around the data he collected was that *up to a point* life success is positively correlated with IQ, but not so much as you go on up.
2022-11-29 19:16:21 <thrig       > George Orwell worked as a dishwasher, for example
2022-11-29 19:16:21 <KipIngram   > Setting aside the really exceptional people, of which there are certainly examples, he said that points above 125 or so didn't really show a significant payoff.
2022-11-29 19:16:56 <KipIngram   > And sometimes "problems fitting in" came along with the high values.
2022-11-29 19:19:18 <KipIngram   > But up to 125 he claimed there was a clear win.  Made me figure that Malcolm's IQ must be right around 125.  :-)
2022-11-29 19:20:36 <KipIngram   > I read an expose he did once on the snack industry.  Cheetos figured prominently in it.  Apparently the guys that "designed" Cheetos were specifically told that a requirement was that you crave it, but after you ate it was just "gone" - they didn't want it to fill you up.  The deliberately wanted something people would gorge on.
2022-11-29 19:20:52 <KipIngram   > That whole "eat a whole bag without really realizing it" thing.
2022-11-29 19:21:02 <KipIngram   > The guys were good - Cheetos really are like that.