2022-12-06 06:11:03 <sts-q       > norayr: hi :)
2022-12-06 07:18:52 <norayr      > sts-q: hey!
2022-12-06 11:41:29 <olle        > Hey hey hey
2022-12-06 16:05:01 <KipIngram   > Hey olle.
2022-12-06 16:07:43 <olle        > c-addr is character address?
2022-12-06 16:07:45 <olle        > So a byte?
2022-12-06 16:08:06 <eris[m]     > it addresses a byte
2022-12-06 16:08:20 <olle        > kk
2022-12-06 16:08:27 <thrig       > O, byte! Hello, byte! etc.
2022-12-06 16:08:40 <eris[m]     > you have to use c@ on a c-addr
2022-12-06 16:09:24 <olle        > Yep yep, looking at https://rosettacode.org/wiki/100_doors#Forth
2022-12-06 16:09:38 <olle        > dup is used because the next word will eat it, right?
2022-12-06 16:09:46 <olle        > So it's "stack cermony" in a sense
2022-12-06 16:11:01 <eris[m]     > olle: yes
2022-12-06 16:11:31 <KipIngram   > thrig: You put smiles on my face from time to time.  Sense of humor reminds me of my dad's.
2022-12-06 16:11:48 <thrig       > I'm sorry?
2022-12-06 16:12:14 <KipIngram   > Your "byte addressing."  Fun.
2022-12-06 16:13:24 <olle        > What was the joke?
2022-12-06 16:13:30 <olle        > Oh
2022-12-06 16:13:36 <olle        > Pun on "address"
2022-12-06 16:15:05 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2022-12-06 16:15:20 <KipIngram   > I just walked in coming home from work, and it was a fun moment.
2022-12-06 16:16:44 <KipIngram   > Re: the next word eating it, you're talking about c@ consuming the address it uses?  Yeah, the dup is to have a copy still around for the c! to use.
2022-12-06 16:16:57 <KipIngram   > Toggle is a primitive in my system.
2022-12-06 16:16:58 <olle        > Got it :)
2022-12-06 16:17:16 <olle        > Why a primitive if you can make it?
2022-12-06 16:17:16 <KipIngram   > Which helps a lot, since the assembly can just operate directly on the RAM location.
2022-12-06 16:17:23 <olle        > Oh
2022-12-06 16:17:24 <KipIngram   > Faster, more efficient.
2022-12-06 16:17:28 <olle        > Makes sense
2022-12-06 16:17:34 <KipIngram   > And it's a very short primitive - it takes less space that way too.
2022-12-06 16:18:38 <KipIngram   > I think mine may also take a bitmask, so I can toggle individual bits.  I may be remembering something else, though.
2022-12-06 16:19:10 <olle        > 
ACTION working on his nbody benchmark on polyglot compiler

2022-12-06 16:19:57 <olle        > What's 1+ tho?
2022-12-06 16:20:00 <olle        > `
2022-12-06 16:20:01 <olle        > 100  1+ ( 1-based indexing ) constant ndoors`
2022-12-06 16:21:37 <KipIngram   > Increments top of stack by one.
2022-12-06 16:21:42 <olle        > see 1+ spits out asm ^^
2022-12-06 16:21:47 <olle        > KipIngram: Thanks
2022-12-06 16:21:50 <KipIngram   > Also present because 1 + is less efficient.
2022-12-06 16:21:59 <KipIngram   > In both time and space.
2022-12-06 16:22:01 <olle        > For PHP in Vim, I made a tiny script that looks up the def on php.net
2022-12-06 16:22:05 <KipIngram   > Hard to beat an inc instruction.
2022-12-06 16:22:16 <KipIngram   > Oh, nice.
2022-12-06 16:22:17 <olle        > Slightly more useful than "see" if it only spits out asm :D
2022-12-06 16:22:30 <olle        > Guess I could do something sim for gforth manual
2022-12-06 16:22:57 <KipIngram   > :-)  Yeah.  For a primitive that's about all see can do, but you're right - if you don't happen to know assembly it's not terribly helpful.
2022-12-06 16:23:56 <thrig       > the joys of explaining xor rbx,rbx to lisp folks
2022-12-06 16:24:04 <olle        > hehe
2022-12-06 16:24:25 <olle        > 
ACTION https://wiki.c2.com/?ForthVsLisp

2022-12-06 16:29:21 <KipIngram   > Wow - that link references this link, which is a page of Chuck's colorforth:
2022-12-06 16:29:25 <KipIngram   > https://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/Raystm2/mv050314.html
2022-12-06 16:29:37 <KipIngram   > One sees why Forth gets accused of being unreadable.
2022-12-06 16:29:45 <KipIngram   > Holy cow.
2022-12-06 16:30:05 <KipIngram   > I couldn't even START to tell you what's going on there.
2022-12-06 16:30:24 <thrig       > it's an elaborate noc, noc joke?
2022-12-06 16:31:32 <KipIngram   > Well, I think it's the bootstrap stage of a system.  Further down it gets more readable.
2022-12-06 16:31:44 <KipIngram   > I guess those numbers are basically bits of machine code.
2022-12-06 16:31:54 <thrig       > SBCL backtraces are also pretty unreadable
2022-12-06 16:33:09 <olle        > croll down
2022-12-06 16:33:40 <KipIngram   > Yeah, it gets better down there.
2022-12-06 16:33:51 <KipIngram   > Wonder why he uses blue underscores instead of just spaces?
2022-12-06 16:39:50 <KipIngram   > It bugs me when people try to say that Forth is "basically an assembler."
2022-12-06 16:40:31 <KipIngram   > It can DO what assemblers do, and at the very lowest level the words are like instructions for a VM.  But I've never seen an assembler as transparently extensible as Forth is.
2022-12-06 16:40:46 <KipIngram   > Even a good macro facility still is "more visible" that Forth extensions are.
2022-12-06 16:41:15 <KipIngram   > Forth is a man/machine interface that can operate at any level of abstraction.
2022-12-06 16:41:48 <KipIngram   > And no other language I've ever seen achieves that as cleanly.
2022-12-06 16:43:18 <olle        > You wouldn't call it a macro language?
2022-12-06 16:43:53 <olle        > Or, how is it more than "just" a macro language? :)
2022-12-06 16:44:01 <KipIngram   > Well, maybe that's a reasonable term.  But it's not REALLY "macro like," because macros are just a series of substitutions and expansions.
2022-12-06 16:44:06 <olle        > 
ACTION gives up on compiler coding for today

2022-12-06 16:44:09 <KipIngram   > Forth actually compiles those words and then calls them.
2022-12-06 16:44:21 <olle        > Hm hm
2022-12-06 16:44:24 <KipIngram   > it doesn't just expand things out into a monolithic definition.
2022-12-06 16:44:35 <olle        > Well neither does C macros
2022-12-06 16:44:52 <KipIngram   > Though in fact Chuck's very earliest work did that, as far as I could tell from that book of his.
2022-12-06 16:44:53 <olle        > But obviously Forth is more powerful than C pp
2022-12-06 16:45:06 <KipIngram   > I think he didn't have : definitions fully conceptualized when he wrote that.
2022-12-06 16:45:07 <thrig       > C macros are pretty terrible
2022-12-06 16:45:41 <olle        > When I first started web dev I did a template engine with on-the-fly macro defs, to reduce html code considerably
2022-12-06 16:45:52 <KipIngram   > Anyway, maybe I think of macros wrong, but for me it's a system where a shorthand name just gets replaced by its defining text, and the moment it's read and processed.
2022-12-06 16:46:05 <olle        > KipIngram: You know m4?
2022-12-06 16:46:07 <KipIngram   > Perhaps recursively.
2022-12-06 16:46:21 <KipIngram   > No, I don't think so - only "Cortex" M4.
2022-12-06 16:46:36 <olle        > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_(computer_language)
2022-12-06 16:47:25 <KipIngram   > Oh, interesting.  No, I've been unaware of that.
2022-12-06 16:47:43 <KipIngram   > Maybe I should read a little - might prove useful for something if it's sitting there in most Linux systems.
2022-12-06 16:48:33 <olle        > I thought about using it in a project, but in the end I needed to include sed in the Makefile ^^
2022-12-06 16:50:58 <vms14       > olle:  m4 kind of sucks :/
2022-12-06 16:51:13 <vms14       > even the C preprocessor is better xd
2022-12-06 16:51:42 <vms14       > the best preprocessor is forth :D
2022-12-06 16:52:05 <vms14       > : some-word " some text" ;
2022-12-06 17:14:41 <vms14       > this channel needs a forth bot that evaluates random forth code
2022-12-06 17:18:43 <olle        > vms14: it's in the making. i think.
2022-12-06 17:18:52 <olle        > Never said m4 was good :)
2022-12-06 17:19:22 <thrig       > m4 is less bad than hand wrangling a sendmail.cf?
2022-12-06 17:24:36 <vms14       > I was looking for preprocessors for C and tried m4, read a book and cried
2022-12-06 17:25:17 <vms14       > it has weird stuff that I'd consider a bug, don't remember exactly what
2022-12-06 17:25:28 <vms14       > olle: who is making the bot? :0
2022-12-06 17:27:19 <olle        > vms14: another forth program :D
2022-12-06 17:29:37 <vms14       > olle: which forth implementation do you use?
2022-12-06 22:07:04 <joe9        > anyone know of different implementations of blocks (forth file system)?
2022-12-06 22:20:24 <decay       > define different implementations?