2022-12-14 07:58:05 <veltas      > vms14: nice (if you read the logs)
2022-12-14 09:20:41 <KipIngram   > vms14: I think your language is rather "far" from Forth, but on hte other hand I think what you're doing here is very valuable.  Just taking ideas / concepts and PLAYING with them is good mental exercise.  I think we always learn something when we engage in an activity like that.  And you've stuck with this pretty well over these recent months.  :-)
2022-12-14 09:21:25 <KipIngram   > When you talk about it I don't always "get" exactly what you're doing, but you do, so I think you're getting benefits from it.
2022-12-14 09:21:42 <KipIngram   > I still hope that one of these days you write a real Forth, though.  :-)
2022-12-14 09:27:57 <KipIngram   > So, this Highlander spin off show (The Raven) isn't nearly as good as the original series was.
2022-12-14 09:28:31 <KipIngram   > The original managed to get me "attached" to the main characters, the way reall good fiction can do.  The spin-off is failing to do that.  It's  "ok," but it's nothing particularly special.
2022-12-14 09:29:30 <veltas      > Nothing good on TV
2022-12-14 09:30:05 <KipIngram   > More or less, that's true, and of course this original series, that I do consider "good," is 30 years old.
2022-12-14 09:30:21 <KipIngram   > So if you do find somethin that's passably "good," it's likely old.
2022-12-14 09:30:59 <gordonjcp   > I always thought some of the chat around the film was hilarious
2022-12-14 09:31:05 <KipIngram   > Most of the stuff they've gravitated to these days I have no use or at all.  I just completely refuse to watch any of this "reality TV" drivel.
2022-12-14 09:31:09 <gordonjcp   > "oh it's shot in a far remote glen in Scotland"
2022-12-14 09:31:12 <gordonjcp   > uh-huh
2022-12-14 09:31:22 <gordonjcp   > roughly 50m from the road
2022-12-14 09:31:23 <KipIngram   > People actually thought it was SHOT there?
2022-12-14 09:31:31 <gordonjcp   > the film, the original film?
2022-12-14 09:31:39 <gordonjcp   > yeah bits of it were shot in Glencoe
2022-12-14 09:32:12 <KipIngram   > Interesting.  I figured there were perhaps some stock scenic shots that were legit, but that it was probably shot in Vancouver or something.
2022-12-14 09:32:16 <gordonjcp   > no no
2022-12-14 09:32:21 <KipIngram   > Like a lot of stuff is these days.
2022-12-14 09:32:32 <gordonjcp   > the bit where he has a house and a wife in medieval Scotland?
2022-12-14 09:32:48 <KipIngram   > That was actually in Scotland?
2022-12-14 09:32:55 <KipIngram   > I find that kind of surprising, actually.
2022-12-14 09:32:58 <gordonjcp   > https://goo.gl/maps/xzjNsB6dvmhuxE6r7
2022-12-14 09:33:03 <gordonjcp   > ^ right around the middle, there
2022-12-14 09:33:42 <gordonjcp   > just north of the main road you can see General Wade's Road, it was kind of between the two
2022-12-14 09:34:23 <KipIngram   > That's neat - I just wouldn't have guessed that they actually flew actors and crew over there.
2022-12-14 09:35:03 <gordonjcp   > it's a few miles up the road from where Skyfall did a lot of filming
2022-12-14 09:35:36 <KipIngram   > Nice.  Man, I don't remember Skyfall in any huge detail, but I remember some of the places at least SEEMED awfully remote.
2022-12-14 09:36:15 <gordonjcp   > well
2022-12-14 09:36:34 <gordonjcp   > it depends, it's a few hours drive from Glasgow and a chunk of the road is pretty narrow and twisty even now
2022-12-14 09:36:44 <gordonjcp   > but I've driven past that spot probably a few thousand times by now
2022-12-14 09:36:52 <gordonjcp   > without really trying
2022-12-14 09:38:20 <KipIngram   > On some business trip I took years and years ago I was riding a shuttle or something at one point and I looked out the window and actually saw that big 'Silvercup' sign on a building - the one where they shot the climactic showdown in Highlander.
2022-12-14 09:38:24 <KipIngram   > I thought that was pretty cool.
2022-12-14 09:38:31 <KipIngram   > Can't remember now where I was, though.
2022-12-14 09:38:39 <KipIngram   > It wasn't New York.
2022-12-14 09:38:50 <gordonjcp   > coooool :-D
2022-12-14 09:38:52 <KipIngram   > Guess there could be more than one, though - it could have been a trademark type thing.
2022-12-14 09:39:22 <KipIngram   > My view of it was from behind it.
2022-12-14 09:39:35 <KipIngram   > Probably half a mile, a mile aaway.
2022-12-14 09:40:09 <gordonjcp   > I always loved the great SFX shot where he's lying slain on the battlefield and the camera cranes up and up and up, pulling back to reveal the earth, and pull back more to a reflection in his eye in the present day
2022-12-14 09:40:33 <gordonjcp   > I remember thinking "I want whatever computer they use to do that"
2022-12-14 09:41:07 <gordonjcp   > now, I have a Core i7, probably more RAM than existed in any film studio at the time, certainly more disk space than existed in the world at the time, and a copy of DaVinci Resolve
2022-12-14 09:41:32 <KipIngram   > Yeah, they did a number of fairly clever "era transitions" in that movie.
2022-12-14 09:41:40 <KipIngram   > Someone was at least trying to be creative. :-)
2022-12-14 09:42:32 <gordonjcp   > they did the cheesy Quantel "smash glass" transition at some point
2022-12-14 09:42:53 <KipIngram   > I also liked the one where you were in the parking garage at Madison Square Garden, and the view just starts to "rise," passes through the ceiling of the parking garage, and when you come out the other side you're in old Scotland.
2022-12-14 09:42:54 <gordonjcp   > probably because "hey you know you've still got a couple dozen frames of render time paid for on this thing right?"
2022-12-14 09:43:00 <gordonjcp   > yeah
2022-12-14 09:43:18 <KipIngram   > Yes, that was when they were switching to the WWII scene in which he first met Rachel.
2022-12-14 09:43:27 <KipIngram   > I think that scene was not in the original theatrical release.
2022-12-14 09:43:33 <KipIngram   > Got added in the director's cut.
2022-12-14 09:43:48 <KipIngram   > Because I clearly remember getting that scene on a "later viewing."
2022-12-14 09:44:00 <gordonjcp   > same guy as cut the first Fast and the Furious
2022-12-14 09:44:18 <gordonjcp   > and Mercury Rising
2022-12-14 09:46:24 <KipIngram   > I'm still not really sure what it is that makes that movie appeal to me so much.  Maybe I'm just kind of a sucker for "epic battles between good and evil."  And I do always tend to like stuff with any kind of "supernatural" element.  Highlander isn't *heavily* supernatural, but the whole business of immortals is at least to some degree.
2022-12-14 09:47:02 <KipIngram   > I also like stories with "special" heroic protagonists.
2022-12-14 09:47:46 <KipIngram   > I read somewhere that in the great debate between Star Wars and Star Trek, some people like Star Wars better because it has that kind of structure, with Luke as the "special one," but some people just don't like that - they prefer stories about people working together.
2022-12-14 09:47:55 <gordonjcp   > I think a lot of it for me is just how well it's all done
2022-12-14 09:48:03 <thrig       > hero with 5000 faces and all that
2022-12-14 09:48:16 <KipIngram   > It correlates with their political views to some degrees - Star trek fans wind up being somewhat more liberal than Star Wars fans.
2022-12-14 09:48:36 <KipIngram   > Not like that's any sort of total correlation, but I saw it claimed that there is a small trend in that direction.
2022-12-14 09:48:38 <thrig       > oh 1000 faces, bit o' inflation there
2022-12-14 09:48:49 <thrig       > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces
2022-12-14 09:49:26 <KipIngram   > I don't konw how true that claim is, but it seems a little logical at least.
2022-12-14 09:49:46 <KipIngram   > I like them both.  :-)
2022-12-14 09:50:17 <gordonjcp   > the bit with the sword fight on the pointy rock?
2022-12-14 09:50:19 <KipIngram   > But the whole business of "The Force" in Star Wars does push that same slightly supernatural button that Highlander does.
2022-12-14 09:50:21 <gordonjcp   > that's a real pointy rock
2022-12-14 09:50:37 <KipIngram   > Yeah, that is an impressive rock.
2022-12-14 09:50:40 <gordonjcp   > it's on Sròn na Ciche in the Cuillins
2022-12-14 09:50:45 <gordonjcp   > you can climb it for real
2022-12-14 09:50:53 <KipIngram   > When Ramirez's sword falls at the end, it really falls for a LONG time.
2022-12-14 09:50:56 <gordonjcp   > I don't recommend sword fighting on it, you'll fall
2022-12-14 09:50:57 <gordonjcp   > ye
2022-12-14 09:50:59 <gordonjcp   > it's really high up
2022-12-14 09:51:09 <KipIngram   > Hard to see how that sword possibly survived that.
2022-12-14 09:52:08 <KipIngram   > Well, I'm happy to know some of those settings were real; that makes me like the movie even more.
2022-12-14 09:52:38 <gordonjcp   > not just real; an hour's drive from where I grew up :-)
2022-12-14 09:53:03 <KipIngram   > That's super cool.  :-)
2022-12-14 09:53:10 <gordonjcp   > Eilean Donan Castle at the start is real although they dumped literally tonnes of earth and rocks and turf on the car park
2022-12-14 09:53:21 <KipIngram   > The movie seemed to imply a range of immortal abilities that goes beyond what they invoke in the TV s how.
2022-12-14 09:53:44 <KipIngram   > In the show they can sense "each other," of course, but in the movie it was like they could sense other things too, like when they 'felt' the stag.
2022-12-14 09:53:48 <gordonjcp   > literally landscaped in the entire car park, and built massive plywood walls so you couldn't see the road bridge just up from it :-)
2022-12-14 09:53:53 <KipIngram   > And when Conner knew Rachel was following him.
2022-12-14 09:54:11 <gordonjcp   > I mean even the physical aspects of the production were absolutely mindboggling
2022-12-14 09:54:29 <gordonjcp   > no quick and easy digital set extension in those days
2022-12-14 09:54:37 <thrig       > kurosawa once spent all the water for a district for a heavy rain effect
2022-12-14 09:54:42 <gordonjcp   > oh you want to slice a log in half with a broadsword? Okay
2022-12-14 09:54:43 <KipIngram   > Well, I will have to go find something to read on it, sounds like an interesting thing to learn about.
2022-12-14 09:54:48 <gordonjcp   > careful, it's sharp
2022-12-14 09:54:59 <gordonjcp   > yeah don't drop it on your... okay medic?
2022-12-14 09:56:13 <KipIngram   > At some point over the years I had to buy a katana, just because of that movie.  It's nothing special, but it is "real" and not just a decorative thing.  A "working sword."
2022-12-14 09:57:20 <thrig       > bet you're popular with airport security
2022-12-14 09:57:32 <KipIngram   > I'm sure I would be, if it ever left the house.
2022-12-14 09:58:01 <KipIngram   > It is fun to muse about how they're able to carry their swords around the way they do in those productions.
2022-12-14 09:58:55 <KipIngram   > I remember Adraian Paul (Duncan Macleod) got flack from his bosses once because an intervieewer asked him once how Duncan carries his sword (because sometimes he's attired in a way that would just make it impossible, and yet there it is when needed).
2022-12-14 09:59:14 <KipIngram   > Anyway, he replied that he kept it up his ass, and the bosses didn't like that very much.
2022-12-14 09:59:44 <KipIngram   > I thought they were being a little too uptight.
2022-12-14 09:59:47 <KipIngram   > It was funny.
2022-12-14 10:04:41 <KipIngram   > So, I had to do a bunch of new work on those new test scripts for work Monday night.  My test names lead off with a three digit index, starting at 001.  In the old setup those were set by the test script itself, and their purpose was to make the listing of directories in a results bundle show up in test order.
2022-12-14 10:05:46 <KipIngram   > On this new stuff, instead of having the script set those manually, I wanted to step through them arithmetically.  Initially I was delighted to see that in linux if you have something set to, say 003, and you run value=$((value+1)) you get 004; it keeps those leading zeros.
2022-12-14 10:06:15 <KipIngram   > But that only works for tests with seven or fewer steps, because apparently Linux things of a number with a leading zero as octal.  :-(
2022-12-14 10:06:49 <KipIngram   > So I had to diddle with that part a bit; have to add the leading zeros only after the arithmetic is done.
2022-12-14 10:07:05 <KipIngram   > I guess that's a shared feature with C.
2022-12-14 10:07:12 <KipIngram   > I never particularly liked that aspect of C.
2022-12-14 10:07:20 <thrig       > that's probably bash being silly
2022-12-14 10:08:27 <thrig       > a better way is probably to printf "%03d" $yournonzeroleadingnumbervariablehere
2022-12-14 10:08:29 <KipIngram   > yeah - 001 will increment just fine up to 007, but the next increment throws an error.  It doesn't go to 010, which would be a correct octal increment.  It just rolls over and dies.
2022-12-14 10:09:02 <KipIngram   > Anyway, I figured out how to use bash printf to add the leading zeros, at the last minute when I was ready to USE the value.
2022-12-14 10:10:12 <KipIngram   > So there was that, and there was one other kink in the thing that kept it from fully supporting my past work.  I got it all worked out Monday evening, though.  I'm testing the changes now - I think they're good.
2022-12-14 10:14:40 <KipIngram   > Another small issue with the Highlander spinoff is that it's just a little harder for me to suspend my disbelief enough to swallow Amanda winning all of these duels she has with other immortals.
2022-12-14 10:14:57 <KipIngram   > It was easy to see Duncan winning - he's throoughly bad ass.
2022-12-14 10:15:13 <KipIngram   > But in some of the cases with Amanda her being smaller, lighter, and so on just makes it harder to believe.
2022-12-14 10:15:33 <KipIngram   > Any given one of them, sure - you never know how such a thing will turn out.  But as the count goes up, it's harder.
2022-12-14 10:16:20 <KipIngram   > At least the use of swords makes it easier to believe - those gender differences would matter less there, I think, than in a weapons-free fight.
2022-12-14 10:17:35 <KipIngram   > Oh, they really screwed the pooch on one episode, though - in one scene a newly minted immortal appeared at his "sons' funeral and shot the corrupt cop that had killed the son.
2022-12-14 10:17:54 <KipIngram   > But that was holy ground, and it's well established that immortals can't hurt *anyone* - not just other immortals - on holy ground.
2022-12-14 10:18:11 <KipIngram   > So they just didn't think that one through very well.
2022-12-14 10:18:39 <KipIngram   > The original series makes it completely clear that that restriction is all-encompassing.
2022-12-14 10:18:56 <thrig       > does the holy ground also apply in the cheddar factory
2022-12-14 10:19:07 <KipIngram   > :-)
2022-12-14 10:19:21 <KipIngram   > That's the only oopsie I saw regarding that particular thing.
2022-12-14 10:19:37 <KipIngram   > It was also made clear it doesn't have to be Christian holy ground; any faith will do.
2022-12-14 10:20:26 <thrig       > but but pagans consider all the earth holy
2022-12-14 10:20:40 <KipIngram   > So yeah, if the cheddar factory is holy to believers in the flying spaghetti monster, I guess that would count.
2022-12-14 10:21:03 <KipIngram   > Fair enough; if they took it that far it would kind of undermine the show, though.
2022-12-14 10:50:40 <KipIngram   > Anyway, I thought it was good they avoided be entirely "Christian centric" on that front.
2022-12-14 10:50:46 <KipIngram   > being
2022-12-14 19:13:57 <vms14       > crc do you miss packages sometimes?
2022-12-14 19:14:40 <vms14       > I wondered if doing it like you, using prefixes instead
2022-12-14 19:14:55 <crc         > not really
2022-12-14 19:15:02 <vms14       > I dislike the idea of having to prefix everything, I suppose it's just matter of getting used to
2022-12-14 19:15:33 <vms14       > but packages add a bit of overhead
2022-12-14 19:16:15 <vms14       > and mine let some dynamic behavior that's usually unwanted xD
2022-12-14 19:16:29 <crc         > I had a quite complex setup at one point; the namespace prefixes work better for me in practice. I've been doing it this way for 5+ years and haven't desired to go back during this time
2022-12-14 19:16:50 <vms14       > hmm
2022-12-14 19:18:20 <crc         > (I've explored a lot of things over the past couple of decades)
2022-12-14 19:18:26 <vms14       > like what?
2022-12-14 19:18:48 <vms14       > I try to find inconvenients to not using packages, but can't find any
2022-12-14 19:19:26 <vms14       > it solves a feature/bug I have and makes the interpreter faster
2022-12-14 19:20:27 <vms14       > also I hardcode the meaning of an immediate word in other immediate words cause having packages means search recursively to all parents to find an immediate word
2022-12-14 19:22:22 <vms14       > where using prefixes you can just have a list/hash of the immediate words and don't have to look for every word you find
2022-12-14 19:23:04 <vms14       > I always wonder if doing like you do
2022-12-14 19:25:56 <vms14       > it's all benefits, except for having to type the prefix xD
2022-12-14 19:26:32 <vms14       > for now I'll stick to packages, but I always wonder about that
2022-12-14 19:28:52 <crc         > For me, a big advantage of the prefixes is that it makes it very clear exactly what is being called
2022-12-14 19:29:11 <crc         > With packages, search orders, etc, this can get murky
2022-12-14 19:29:25 <thrig       > name collisions, shadowing, ...
2022-12-14 19:29:58 <vms14       > my feature/bug is that older colon words will use newer definitions
2022-12-14 19:30:14 <crc         > (If you have actual types, prefixes could be inferred,  as 8th does, but I prefer being explicit)
2022-12-14 19:30:58 <vms14       > if you make a new colon word and an older word was using a word with that name, the first found (the newer, or depending on the package you are) is the word it will use
2022-12-14 19:31:19 <crc         > 
ACTION finds it useful to be able to reuse names

2022-12-14 19:32:23 <vms14       > this could be desirable to affect the behavior of part from an existing colon word, but it's usually a bad thing
2022-12-14 19:33:15 <vms14       > you can fake compile them (it turns a colon word into a subroutine), then the definitions existing at that time are the ones that will always used and that feature/bug won't affect that colon word
2022-12-14 19:33:30 <vms14       > except for when the word does not exist at that time
2022-12-14 19:33:41 <vms14       > the fake compiler falls back to the interpreter
2022-12-14 19:34:39 <vms14       > and there's also a prefix syntax to specify the package::word
2022-12-14 19:36:28 <vms14       > but a prefix always simplifies a lot of stuff and gives several benefits
2022-12-14 19:37:13 <vms14       > and simplicity is part of the forth philosophy, so you got that right :D
2022-12-14 19:40:10 <crc         > I've done complexity; I'm done with that route
2022-12-14 21:18:39 <KipIngram   > I don't actually have a way in my system to change existing word definitions, but it wouldn't be hard to add one.
2022-12-14 21:19:20 <KipIngram   > For : definitions, my headers have two pointers - one points to the code (docol) and the other points to the list of words comprising that definition.
2022-12-14 21:19:27 <KipIngram   > references to that word point to that pointer pair.
2022-12-14 21:19:42 <KipIngram   > So I can just change that second pointer, and the new definition will immediately take over, everywhere.
2022-12-14 21:22:42 <vms14       > KipIngram: I can 'word contents pop
2022-12-14 21:22:43 <vms14       > XD
2022-12-14 21:23:11 <vms14       > for example : word 1 2 3 ;  'word contents pop  word    =>  1 2
2022-12-14 21:23:28 <vms14       > unless they're fake-compiled
2022-12-14 21:26:03 <vms14       > I'm rewriting again a version in js
2022-12-14 21:26:26 <vms14       > https://termbin.com/dz23