2023-01-04 04:08:07 <veltas      > crc: I was just in middle of my changes and introduced a bug where index -1 is being accessed
2023-01-04 04:08:17 <veltas      > At work now, will hopefully look again later
2023-01-04 04:09:02 <veltas      > Yeah it is in the I/O handler in one, in load_image in the other (out of Lua and C interpreter)
2023-01-04 04:09:46 <veltas      > I was checking the C VM to figure out what I had done wrong (or if there was some kind of Lua-based misconception going on)
2023-01-04 04:37:31 <veltas      > I will say most of the changes briefly: using "local" as much as possible instead of globals, using integer operations without math.floor (i.e. // integer divide, % integer modulus (if args are integers) ), ...
2023-01-04 04:37:45 <veltas      > Using a table to lookup the operation based on opcode
2023-01-04 04:38:25 <veltas      > Using string.pack and string.unpack as the codex for 32-bit little endian representation
2023-01-04 04:39:03 <veltas      > As I said, hopefully I can continue soon and give something working
2023-01-04 06:50:23 <gordonjcp   > ah this bloody 6502 figforth is melting my brain
2023-01-04 06:50:57 <gordonjcp   > would be great if the author didn't use all the useful ROM variables in the Apple II for internal system variables
2023-01-04 07:27:51 <veltas      > What's wrong with it?
2023-01-04 07:27:53 <veltas      > Apart from that
2023-01-04 07:35:01 <KipIngram   > You can't just work around that by applying a prefix for the external use?
2023-01-04 07:35:08 <KipIngram   > maybe ii_ or something?
2023-01-04 07:36:21 <veltas      > I assumed they meant fixed RAM addresses that mean something to the Apple II's ROM
2023-01-04 07:36:43 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I may not have interpreted right.
2023-01-04 07:37:11 <KipIngram   > It sounded to me like he was saying that he was constantly finding desirable names already in use.
2023-01-04 07:38:41 <KipIngram   > Well, I may have poked a bear in my Dresden Files Reddit community.
2023-01-04 07:39:06 <KipIngram   > Someone posted a proposed list of "relative character power levels."  One of the characters is an archangel, and the guy put him at the top.
2023-01-04 07:39:36 <KipIngram   > I pointed out that if you go strictly off of the books themselves, and don't include anything from the author's public speaking history, then it's implied otherwise.
2023-01-04 07:39:47 <KipIngram   > But every time that comes up there seem to be people who just won't have it.
2023-01-04 07:40:00 <KipIngram   > I think there's an "external cultural mindset" that the archangel HAS to be top dog.
2023-01-04 07:40:43 <KipIngram   > I figure the author hasn't "thought through" his public words as carefully as he has his writing.
2023-01-04 07:41:19 <KipIngram   > And frankly I think he's sometimes been asked "leading questions," and responds carefully to avoid "displeasing people."
2023-01-04 07:41:37 <KipIngram   > People can be sensitive about their religion sometimes.
2023-01-04 07:41:57 <KipIngram   > I'm expecting a rash of arguments in my inbox today.
2023-01-04 07:49:18 <KipIngram   > Oh, so the 2-1 mux went away from the opcode sequencer.  I actually didn't have it in at first, and then talked myself into it.  But it's not needed after all.  so it's just the 4-1 mux and the two registers.  That means there are four control variables, and they will depend on the fetch/execute state bit, the low two bits of the instruction word (in fetch state) and the "now" opcode and the "next" opcode (in
2023-01-04 07:49:20 <KipIngram   > execute state).
2023-01-04 07:49:40 <KipIngram   > Obviously there is no "now opcode" in fetch state.
2023-01-04 07:53:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what's the syntax to conditionally define a word? i.e. `true : noun if s" true" else s" false" then ;` ?
2023-01-04 07:55:51 <crc         > You want noun defined if toz is true?
2023-01-04 07:55:52 <KipIngram   > Is there a standard syntax for such things?  I don't really know the standard very well; that behavior wasn't any sort of "usual" Forth functiionality back in the era that my knowledge is rooted in.
2023-01-04 07:56:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> crc: yeah
2023-01-04 07:56:26 <crc         > true [if] : noun ... ; [then]
2023-01-04 07:56:36 <crc         > Assuming an ANS system
2023-01-04 07:57:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> [if] ?!
2023-01-04 07:57:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> where did that come from
2023-01-04 07:57:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> golly gee wiz etc
2023-01-04 07:58:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what about to have the if...then run during compilation?
2023-01-04 07:58:27 <crc         > https://forth-standard.org/standard/tools/BracketIF
2023-01-04 07:58:56 <WilhelmVonWeiner> so `true : noun if ... then ; ` becomes effectively ` : noun ... ; `
2023-01-04 08:00:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> crc: thanks btw, that's useful word
2023-01-04 08:01:03 <KipIngram   > That is useful.
2023-01-04 08:01:20 <veltas      > WilhelmVonWeiner: You can also define this yourself quite easily if your forth doesn't have it
2023-01-04 08:01:33 <veltas      > Or something similar
2023-01-04 08:01:35 <KipIngram   > I think if I wrote it I'd probably use a single character terminator, so I could use WORD.
2023-01-04 08:01:44 <KipIngram   > true( ...code... )
2023-01-04 08:01:47 <KipIngram   > or something.
2023-01-04 08:02:01 <veltas      > Like ;
2023-01-04 08:02:07 <crc         > I'm not sure how well this would work inside a definition. IIRC, it's an immediate word, but you'd probably need to deal with whatever the compiler leaves on the stack during compilation
2023-01-04 08:02:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> veltas: i'm only using gforth because the thing i'm forking is written in gforth
2023-01-04 08:02:28 <KipIngram   > Yeah, that would be a potential issue.
2023-01-04 08:02:34 <veltas      > ANS is somewhat specific about what's on the stack while compiling
2023-01-04 08:02:38 <KipIngram   > But if you wanted to test a variable it would work.
2023-01-04 08:02:42 <veltas      > So you can indeed use things like [IF] within a def
2023-01-04 08:02:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> actually i wrote an article you might like idk if i posted it
2023-01-04 08:02:48 <crc         > So : noun [ true ] [if] ... [else] ... [then] ;
2023-01-04 08:03:09 <veltas      > It's not specific about the size of stack content, but you can make certain reasonable assumptions and manipulations
2023-01-04 08:03:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://cohost.org/offset---cyan/post/728975-the-zen-of-forth
2023-01-04 08:03:37 <KipIngram   > Oh, yeah - that ought to work fine, since you're getting the conditional value at the time  you need it.
2023-01-04 08:04:07 <veltas      > But you couldn't for instance do:    true : noun [if] .....
2023-01-04 08:04:32 <KipIngram   > This definitely feels like something that should appear in the standard.  Generally any language would benefit from that ability.
2023-01-04 08:04:57 <veltas      > What should?
2023-01-04 08:05:05 <KipIngram   > C was the first language I encountered that kind of thing in, and I remember thinking it was awfully nice.
2023-01-04 08:05:32 <veltas      > Oh, conditional inclusion
2023-01-04 08:05:37 <KipIngram   > Condi... yeah.
2023-01-04 08:05:52 <KipIngram   > Just generally useful for debug frameworks and stuff.
2023-01-04 08:05:59 <veltas      > One approach might be to just FORGET entire sections you don't want later
2023-01-04 08:06:06 <KipIngram   > I don't have it in my system yet - I ought to add it.
2023-01-04 08:06:44 <veltas      > The ANS forth allows embedding of [IF] .. [ELSE] .. [THEN]
2023-01-04 08:07:08 <veltas      > So you can have multiple levels, and it's smart enough to properly skip inner ones when necessary
2023-01-04 08:07:17 <KipIngram   > That's nice.
2023-01-04 08:07:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> well what i see is `true value tokenUsedLater` and further on `... if tokenUsedLater then`
2023-01-04 08:07:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> which to me should just be something like
2023-01-04 08:08:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> `true : tokenUsedLater ( tos is true? ) s" tokenUsedLater" ( else do nothing) ;
2023-01-04 08:08:34 <veltas      > Yeah you can't do that
2023-01-04 08:09:05 <veltas      > Starting a colon def puts stuff on the stack. In some forths that compilation stack can be a different stack, but on some it will just be the parameter stack
2023-01-04 08:09:15 <veltas      > I think on gforth it might actually be a separate stack
2023-01-04 08:09:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> tbh i could create does> it
2023-01-04 08:09:54 <veltas      > What are you actually trying to control here?
2023-01-04 08:10:32 <KipIngram   > I don't have any compiler stack usage in mine.  Conditional returns eliminated all the usual control structures, and I didn't need to use the stack for anything like that.
2023-01-04 08:10:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> this is why i prefer retro forth LOL it's just way way less convoluted to do 99%
2023-01-04 08:11:02 <KipIngram   > Conditional returns and loopbacks.
2023-01-04 08:11:56 <KipIngram   > :-)  "less convoluted" == "good"
2023-01-04 08:12:49 <veltas      > ( C: "<spaces>name" -- colon-sys )
2023-01-04 08:13:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> retro is the mac of forths. just werks
2023-01-04 08:13:28 <veltas      > Well a Forth might want to put stuff on stack rather than in variables to reduce the runtime memory requirements
2023-01-04 08:14:15 <veltas      > Putting it in vars is safer though, you can do stuff like make sure the stack is balanced by end of definition and then warn about mismatched control flow words etc
2023-01-04 08:14:39 <veltas      > Or actually on a normal forth the correct DEPTH at ; will be constant
2023-01-04 08:15:03 <veltas      > Hmmm or actually no that's not true at all
2023-01-04 08:15:13 <veltas      > So a var is indeed useful there
2023-01-04 08:20:41 <veltas      > Honestly I don't think any forth "just works", but retro has advantage of being well defined
2023-01-04 08:20:52 <veltas      > Forth standard is just a standard so it's not always specific
2023-01-04 08:35:19 <KipIngram   > My next goal on this hardware is to get the top level fully working (except for interrupts).  If it finds call or jump, do the calls/jumps.  If it finds opcodes, just click each one out for one cycle until the cell is empty, and march forward cell by cell.  Return is the only opcode I'll initially "recognize."
2023-01-04 08:35:53 <KipIngram   > That's a fair chunk of  Forth operation right there.
2023-01-04 08:50:15 <Zarutian_iPad> talking about hw design of stack machines, I had a rather interesting idea regarding mode control
2023-01-04 08:51:02 <Zarutian_iPad> like IBM 370 problem/priviledged mode or interrupt control in other architectures
2023-01-04 08:54:23 <Zarutian_iPad> I have a ‘page’ at physical address 0xFFxx that controls various things such as memory bank selects (one per page of memory), count down timer, stack index register control and hi/lo marks for same, and the associated interrupt vectors
2023-01-04 08:54:49 <Zarutian_iPad> also there are two mode registers in there
2023-01-04 08:55:14 <Zarutian_iPad> prev_mode and curr_mode
2023-01-04 08:55:50 <Zarutian_iPad> then using only one opcode, ExitFromInterrupt those two swap around
2023-01-04 08:56:02 <KipIngram   > Ok.
2023-01-04 08:57:40 <Zarutian_iPad> the mode register bits turn on or off various things as interrupts enabled, bankselection map active, count down timer active, et ceterata
2023-01-04 08:58:12 <Zarutian_iPad> s/as/such as/
2023-01-04 08:59:14 <KipIngram   > Sure - makes sense.
2023-01-04 08:59:36 <veltas      > I wish I knew more about mainframe architectures
2023-01-04 08:59:45 <KipIngram   > Oh, some of those were really interesting.
2023-01-04 09:00:13 <KipIngram   > The time I learned about that stuff was a "developmental period" and a lot of new and creative ideas were being tried out.
2023-01-04 09:00:23 <KipIngram   > Those IBM machines were pretty neat.
2023-01-04 09:00:48 <KipIngram   > Even virtual memory was a "new thing" back then.
2023-01-04 09:00:50 <Zarutian_iPad> and the bankselect registers, one per ‘page’ can even select ‘special’ bank that just causes an trap/interrupt on cpu access when the bankswitching map is enabled
2023-01-04 09:03:20 <KipIngram   > Parallel computing was also rich with "things being tried."
2023-01-04 09:03:31 <Zarutian_iPad> and in dual stack machines, an trap or an interrupt is just a hardware generated procedure call. And with the mode registers pair above they swap back their meaning
2023-01-04 09:04:30 <KipIngram   > A prof at my college was pushing a scheme using something called "banyans" (I think that was the spelling).  Basically a "butterfly" style arrnagment, in layers.  The kind of structure hardware FFT systems use.
2023-01-04 09:04:39 <KipIngram   > That guy was a jerk.
2023-01-04 09:04:41 <Zarutian_iPad> (diffrence between interrupt and trap here is that in the trap case the pc pushed on returnstack is pointing to the trap causing instruction)
2023-01-04 09:05:04 <KipIngram   > When I was getting my PhD he caused a lot of difficulty for me basically because he didn't like my supervising professor.
2023-01-04 09:05:22 <KipIngram   > So he wasn't deliberately rocking MY boat - he was just trying to give the other prof grief and I was caught in the middle.
2023-01-04 09:05:32 <KipIngram   > It worked out fine, but it required some  hoop jumping.
2023-01-04 09:05:49 <KipIngram   > Dr. Lipovski.  :-|
2023-01-04 09:06:12 <Zarutian_iPad> that sounds like a badly thought out alias
2023-01-04 09:06:47 <KipIngram   > Heh.
2023-01-04 09:07:11 <KipIngram   > He basically complained about the "diversity" (intellectual diversity - this was before any other kind) of my PhD committee.
2023-01-04 09:07:25 <KipIngram   > We fixed it by recruiting a new committee member.
2023-01-04 09:08:01 <KipIngram   > The guy we got was a younger professor, and he was thrilled - he told me it would give him a chance to "rub elbows with the big shots."
2023-01-04 09:08:50 <KipIngram   > But Lipovski pulled this out of his hat right at a time where it threatened to delay my graduation, so it was stressful.
2023-01-04 09:09:26 <KipIngram   > The whole banyan thing didn't catch on, and I confess I was sort of pleased.
2023-01-04 09:09:38 <KipIngram   > Or at least didn't catch on the way he wanted it to.
2023-01-04 09:10:16 <KipIngram   > He was hoping it would become "the way" parallel computing was done, so he'd wind up at the top of the heap.
2023-01-04 09:12:13 <KipIngram   > the "big shot" remark was a little because my supervisor was "in" because he drew a lot of research money to the college, but even more because he was buddies with the dean and had gotten the dean on the committee too.
2023-01-04 09:12:59 <KipIngram   > The guy we added was somewhat junior and probably didn't get noticed much by those higher up guys.
2023-01-04 09:13:41 <KipIngram   > There was also a guy on the committee named Eric Becker, who was kind of a big shot in finite element analysis.
2023-01-04 09:15:40 <Zarutian_iPad> this “butterfly” kind of architecture, why is it called that?
2023-01-04 09:17:47 <Zarutian_iPad> and I thought that Fast Fourier Transforms were basically implemented in DigitalSignalProcessing via loops of multiply&add instructions
2023-01-04 09:18:08 <KipIngram   > I'm not sure, and I may not be using the word correctly.  Hang on a second and let me find a picture.
2023-01-04 09:18:52 <KipIngram   > It's this sort of thing:
2023-01-04 09:18:55 <KipIngram   > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331492227/figure/fig3/AS:732723291357191@1551706254694/An-N-N-with-N-8-flat-version-of-the-proposed-MSSN-original-architecture-a-and_Q640.jpg
2023-01-04 09:19:18 <KipIngram   > I guess the word is sometimes used because there "vaguely butterfly wing shaped" things that appear in there.
2023-01-04 09:19:51 <KipIngram   > Basically it's just to get a log2 N factor in the path length between any two nodes.
2023-01-04 09:20:21 <KipIngram   > But digital FFTs shuffle the samples around in a similar sort of way, for the same reason.
2023-01-04 09:20:55 <Zarutian_iPad> so, it is the samples flowing on those wires?
2023-01-04 09:21:46 <KipIngram   > Yeah, each "wire" would be a comm link, and the digital samples are passed over them.
2023-01-04 09:22:02 <KipIngram   > So they might be whole buses; just depends on your system.
2023-01-04 09:22:46 <KipIngram   > Ah, here's Lipovski:
2023-01-04 09:22:47 <KipIngram   > https://www.amazon.com/Parallel-Computing-Comparisons-Jack-Lipovski/dp/0471822620
2023-01-04 09:23:28 <Zarutian_iPad> the lower diagram seems to be more amciable to scatter gather setup than the upper one
2023-01-04 09:24:06 <KipIngram   > I just grabbed the first diagram that seemed to capture what I was looking for.
2023-01-04 11:07:58 <veltas      > Not enough noobs in here
2023-01-04 11:08:13 <veltas      > Up the Forth recruitment drive
2023-01-04 11:09:34 <thrig       > but cap'n she canna take any more!
2023-01-04 11:11:27 <veltas      > Talking of, I love this thing https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/spaceshipNoiseGenerator.php
2023-01-04 11:19:18 <KipIngram   > Oh, that IS neat.  :-)
2023-01-04 11:19:29 <KipIngram   > My inner showrunner can go wild...
2023-01-04 15:59:43 <decay       > mynoise is underrated.
2023-01-04 16:02:09 <veltas      > I have to say, I can't concentrate in an open office and I use it every single day to get work done
2023-01-04 16:02:13 <veltas      > Couldn't work without it
2023-01-04 16:10:13 <decay       > I paid for it back in 2016 and never looked back. the author is great. you can also (if you know what you're doing) download all of the individual ambient tracks.
2023-01-04 16:20:22 <KipIngram   > I don't do well in open offices either.  From the very first day of my career all the way through 2012 I never was without a private office of my own.
2023-01-04 16:20:54 <KipIngram   > Now IBM has everyone, all the way up through the next to top enineering level, crammed 2-3 per office.
2023-01-04 16:21:11 <KipIngram   > I don't do well with it at all; someone comes in to talk to one of the other guys and it totally disrupts me.
2023-01-04 16:21:51 <KipIngram   > For three years starting in 2020 they had us all work remote, and I honed that down to a fine art.  I could do 99%+ of my work from my computer.
2023-01-04 16:22:06 <KipIngram   > Once in a rare while I'd need to drive in to touch something, usually only for a few minutes.
2023-01-04 16:22:39 <KipIngram   > Now a new executive (well, new in the slot he's in at least) has just arbitrarily decided we have to showup three days a week.
2023-01-04 16:22:44 <KipIngram   > I get LESS work done.
2023-01-04 16:22:51 <KipIngram   > I have no doubt whatsoever about it.
2023-01-04 16:23:05 <KipIngram   > I find it thoroughly annoying.
2023-01-04 16:23:59 <KipIngram   > Maybe there are some jobs that demand physical presence more than mine does.  But to just uniformly slap the same process onto everyone, regardless of their work details, makes no sense at all.
2023-01-04 16:26:44 <Zarutian_iPad> just throwing their weight around?
2023-01-04 16:31:12 <KipIngram   > I figure it's one of two things.
2023-01-04 16:31:40 <KipIngram   > 1) It an older guy, and that's just "how he believes" (in spite of the changes modern technology has brought).
2023-01-04 16:32:15 <KipIngram   > 2) Some people whose jobs do demand their presence have complained about folks not coming in, so he figures he'll solve that problem by making everyone come in.
2023-01-04 16:32:25 <KipIngram   > I regard neither as a very valid reason.
2023-01-04 16:32:52 <KipIngram   > I figure if someone doesn't like the demands of their job, they can get a different job.
2023-01-04 16:33:24 <KipIngram   > But, I also believe that higher up people in the organization get to make such decisions, so in I haul myself three days a week, like I've been told to do.
2023-01-04 16:33:38 <Zarutian_iPad> case 2) is nonsensical to me. Less crowd at the workplace is what I would think
2023-01-04 16:33:48 <KipIngram   > Yeah, for sure.
2023-01-04 16:34:01 <KipIngram   > But there are always petty, disgruntled people around.
2023-01-04 16:34:21 <KipIngram   > #1 may be more likely than #2.
2023-01-04 16:34:34 <KipIngram   > Or it could be what you suggested.
2023-01-04 16:35:18 <KipIngram   > Whichever, the end result is nigh on six hours a week in the car that I was previously avoiding, and getting distracted by other goings on in my office.
2023-01-04 16:35:38 <Zarutian_iPad> 1) sounds like the guy has not done effacacy study of what works
2023-01-04 16:37:05 <KipIngram   > Well, at least I don't feel "singled out" - from what I can tell folks all over the country are being asked back in, and a LOT of them are reacting like "Hey, why?  We just did a great job working from home while you wouldn't LET us come in."
2023-01-04 16:37:44 <KipIngram   > Maybe another cause could be the guy is just sick and tired of "pandemic this, pandemic that" and wants to erase as many vestiges of it as he can.
2023-01-04 16:38:03 <KipIngram   > I can relate to that.
2023-01-04 16:38:20 <KipIngram   > I mean, still shouldn't let it cause bad decisions, but I at least get that.
2023-01-04 16:38:35 <KipIngram   > I want the damn thing behind us too.
2023-01-04 16:38:48 <KipIngram   > Sometimes it seems like when change comes it never goes away.
2023-01-04 16:39:29 <KipIngram   > In a way the terrorists won back on 9/11; they succeeded in causing us to make travel a much bigger hassle, permanently.
2023-01-04 16:40:29 <decay       > it's hard to sweep away an actual, current threat. infectious disease is a problem we'll be dealing with as long as we're things that can get infected.
2023-01-04 16:40:49 <decay       > the pandemic isn't... over. people are still getting COVID, the thing is evolving.
2023-01-04 16:40:50 <KipIngram   > Sure.  It's been with us forever.
2023-01-04 16:41:07 <KipIngram   > Well, COVID hasn't.
2023-01-04 16:41:07 <decay       > delta was probably the worst of it.
2023-01-04 16:41:11 <KipIngram   > But germs have.
2023-01-04 16:41:16 <decay       > COVID has been evolving.
2023-01-04 16:41:24 <decay       > what do you think those variants are.
2023-01-04 16:41:44 <KipIngram   > I still wear the mask where I'm asked to, but I don't go around with it on all the time anymore.
2023-01-04 16:41:51 <KipIngram   > All the time "out" that is.
2023-01-04 16:42:11 <decay       > I mask up in stores because having COVID was like my skeleton was trying to break out of my body.
2023-01-04 16:42:24 <KipIngram   > Ewww.
2023-01-04 16:42:28 <KipIngram   > Sorry, man.
2023-01-04 16:42:32 <decay       > have you had it?
2023-01-04 16:42:34 <KipIngram   > I've been spared.
2023-01-04 16:42:49 <decay       > yeah. you'll mask up far more once you have it. it is not an experience you want to go through.
2023-01-04 16:42:56 <KipIngram   > We think my wife may have gotten, right at the very beginning before we even knew to call it COVID.
2023-01-04 16:42:58 <decay       > let alone twice. and we were double vax'd.
2023-01-04 16:42:59 <KipIngram   > But we're not sure.
2023-01-04 16:43:08 <KipIngram   > Other than that none of my household have had it.
2023-01-04 16:43:21 <decay       > delta killed so many people.
2023-01-04 16:43:26 <decay       > nearly killed my aunt.
2023-01-04 16:43:36 <KipIngram   > She had just gone to her company's London office, and within the first couple of weeks of "pandemic time" they closed that office down for a while.
2023-01-04 16:43:50 <KipIngram   > So we think she may have gotten it before it was popular.
2023-01-04 16:44:02 <KipIngram   > So she was "just sick."
2023-01-04 16:44:15 <decay       > if it was delta she'd be dead or still suffering, most likely.
2023-01-04 16:44:33 <decay       > a lot of people, even my parents, say they got COVID before COVID. then they had COVID. and that talk dropped pretty quickly.
2023-01-04 16:44:45 <KipIngram   > Well, that's totally fair.
2023-01-04 16:44:52 <KipIngram   > She was pretty damn sick, though.
2023-01-04 16:44:55 <decay       > I can't remember much but I do know that the first COVID patients in the US landed and started spreading in WA.
2023-01-04 16:45:00 <KipIngram   > About the sickest I've ever seen her.
2023-01-04 16:45:06 <KipIngram   > In a quarter century.
2023-01-04 16:45:13 <decay       > it absolutely ravages your body.
2023-01-04 16:45:33 <KipIngram   > Yeah, everyone I'm acquainted with who's had it says that.
2023-01-04 16:45:50 <KipIngram   > I don't think I'm psychologically equipped to be as afraid of it as I should be.
2023-01-04 16:46:02 <decay       > everybody gets relaxed and then gets it.
2023-01-04 16:46:08 <KipIngram   > I've always had kind of a cast-iron immune system.  I hardly ever get sick, and I never "expect to."
2023-01-04 16:46:23 <decay       > you and I both. the last time I was sick was 2018.
2023-01-04 16:46:54 <decay       > caught COVID in October last year.
2023-01-04 16:46:55 <KipIngram   > I've always hoped that cancer resistance is related to the immune system, and that maybe I'll be fortunate on that front.
2023-01-04 16:47:15 <decay       > the most surreal part of it was when the bone-shattering pain stopped.
2023-01-04 16:47:29 <decay       > and I could feel, gradually over hours, my nose and tongue losing sensation.
2023-01-04 16:47:34 <KipIngram   > There is nothing like getting  PAST being sick.
2023-01-04 16:47:42 <KipIngram   > It feels like heaven.
2023-01-04 16:48:01 <decay       > people describe it as a loss of taste and smell, but that doesn't really describe the intensity.
2023-01-04 16:48:12 <decay       > you can feel your sensory organs' interconnects burn away.
2023-01-04 16:48:16 <KipIngram   > Even if you weren't really suffering terribly, it's like you feel like Superman when it goes away.
2023-01-04 16:48:19 <decay       > and everything tastes like ethanol.
2023-01-04 16:48:23 <decay       > and smells like ethanol.
2023-01-04 16:48:28 <decay       > and burns like ethanol.
2023-01-04 16:48:51 <decay       > if you're lucky you'll regain normal sensory awareness in two weeks. I could eat lemons like they were candy.
2023-01-04 16:49:17 <decay       > the most surreal part was tasting the alcohol in ketchup.
2023-01-04 16:50:30 <decay       > get vax'd and mask up. you don't want it. especially the immune scars it can leave behind.
2023-01-04 16:50:57 <decay       > the virus looks like everything else in your body. so via molecular mimicry your immune system can start attacking things like cardiac muscle. then you develop POTS. and wish you were dead.
2023-01-04 16:51:19 <decay       > and it never goes away for the rest of your life.
2023-01-04 17:46:20 <veltas      > KipIngram: You work for IBM?
2023-01-04 17:50:12 <veltas      > decay: I heard COVID's getting less serious as it evolves, I hope that's true
2023-01-04 17:50:34 <decay       > veltas: in some ways yes in some ways no. delta was the worst because it just absolutely destroyed its hosts.
2023-01-04 17:50:39 <KipIngram   > veltas: Yes, since late 2012.
2023-01-04 17:50:49 <veltas      > I have no idea, I've heard people say things with total certainty and retract so much now I just sort of keep my head down and try to keep swimming
2023-01-04 17:50:51 <decay       > but there are signs that it's ramping back up with new variants in europe and india.
2023-01-04 17:51:07 <KipIngram   > I was the software engineering manager of a small company here in Houston, and six months after I took the job IBM bought us.
2023-01-04 17:51:12 <decay       > the only thing that I do know for certain is that you don't want it.
2023-01-04 17:52:07 <veltas      > I'm not going to catch it, I've probably already had it and had no symptoms, I've had a few shots for it, I'm under thirty and healthy etc etc
2023-01-04 17:52:18 <veltas      > Not 'COVID', maybe the virus
2023-01-04 17:52:38 <veltas      > I know you can get full blown COVID anyway with all that but it's super unlikely
2023-01-04 17:52:47 <decay       > I'm 27, double vax'd and went maskless at a concert like an idiot.
2023-01-04 17:53:01 <decay       > you can 100% get it. don't buy into the macho bullshit.
2023-01-04 17:53:03 <veltas      > Personally I've always been annoyed with people's lax approach to infectious diseases
2023-01-04 17:53:16 <veltas      > I don't consider it macho I just consider it dumb
2023-01-04 17:53:31 <decay       > it's really dumb.
2023-01-04 17:53:47 <decay       > like, this can kill you and maim you. a mask won't.
2023-01-04 17:54:00 <veltas      > I'm just saying I'm not living in fear, but yeah I try to be careful
2023-01-04 17:54:16 <decay       > you definitely shouldn't live in fear. but it's definitely not worth ignoring.
2023-01-04 17:54:34 <decay       > last year we went swimming, restaurants, etc. and were fine because we knew when to mask and took precautions.
2023-01-04 17:54:35 <KipIngram   > "Not living in fear" - that's how I describe myself.  I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me as "macho."
2023-01-04 17:54:41 <decay       > had the time of our lives.
2023-01-04 17:54:44 <veltas      > Wearing a cotton mask won't help either, wearing a surgical mask is only meant to protect other people although I think it probably helps you a bit too logically
2023-01-04 17:54:57 <decay       > we just wear N95s.
2023-01-04 17:55:05 <veltas      > A good approach is to avoid being around people generally
2023-01-04 17:55:08 <decay       > yeah.
2023-01-04 17:55:16 <veltas      > Or being around lots of young people especially
2023-01-04 17:55:19 <veltas      > Like a concert lol
2023-01-04 17:55:24 <decay       > that's the key. just avoid crowds. and don't do something stupid like being in a concert with a mask off.
2023-01-04 17:55:38 <decay       > the one time we were idiots we got it. we've been to concerts prior! all last year.
2023-01-04 17:55:44 <decay       > the difference was.. _we wore masks_.
2023-01-04 17:56:13 <Zarutian_iPad> or do like the Thought Emporium guy does, wear a lexan helmet with uv-c disinfected air supply
2023-01-04 17:56:28 <decay       > bahaha, I saw CodysLab do that.
2023-01-04 17:57:12 <decay       > we used to sanitize our groceries with disinfectant wipes after having them delivered, so I think we've come quite a long way in terms of dialing in the right amount of precautions.
2023-01-04 17:57:14 <Zarutian_iPad> main reason he made it because he was tired of getting a cold face outside in Canada in winter
2023-01-04 17:57:21 <KipIngram   > Well, I win there - I spend as little time in crowds as possible.
2023-01-04 17:57:26 <KipIngram   > I like being at home.
2023-01-04 17:57:53 <decay       > we evaded it for so long due to that.
2023-01-04 18:00:30 <KipIngram   > Well, we change over our lives.  And people are different.  I'm not into criticizing people for not doing things exactly the way I do.  Those are their lives - not for me to run them.
2023-01-04 18:01:29 <veltas      > Yeah I really hate wearing masks and being around them, but they are at least good at keeping your face/throat warm
2023-01-04 18:01:59 <decay       > I used to hate wearing masks until I found something that fit.
2023-01-04 18:02:05 <KipIngram   > Heh.  I live in Houston Texas - that level of thermal assistance is rarely required.
2023-01-04 18:02:08 <decay       > then it just became a minor inconvenience.
2023-01-04 18:02:44 <decay       > protip: buy an elastomeric mask with P100 filters. you'd be surprised how useful it is outside of protecting you from COVID infections.
2023-01-04 18:02:53 <decay       > I use it to clean my cat's stank-ass litterbox.
2023-01-04 18:02:57 <veltas      > lol
2023-01-04 18:03:00 <KipIngram   > I haven't really paid attention to what the general level of masking is around the places I go.  Certainly more folks aren't wearing them than are at this point.
2023-01-04 18:03:17 <decay       > you'll also look cyberpunk AF.
2023-01-04 18:03:21 <KipIngram   > Maybe 70/30?  That's just a wild ass guess; if I think about it while I'm out next few days I'll count a little.
2023-01-04 18:03:36 <Zarutian_iPad> decay: what kind of sand ya using in that litterbox? a non clumbing kind?
2023-01-04 18:03:52 <decay       > Zarutian_iPad: actually we use pellets.
2023-01-04 18:03:53 <KipIngram   > Oh, the best litter is called Pretty Litter.
2023-01-04 18:03:56 <KipIngram   > It's AMAZING.
2023-01-04 18:03:58 <decay       > no sand, no clumping, anything.
2023-01-04 18:04:01 <decay       > just wood pellets.
2023-01-04 18:04:02 <KipIngram   > I'll never go back.
2023-01-04 18:04:16 <KipIngram   > We have it on a delivery schedule.
2023-01-04 18:04:31 <Zarutian_iPad> decay: no wonder why it smells
2023-01-04 18:04:39 <decay       > it used to smell worse without it.
2023-01-04 18:04:52 <decay       > now it just smells like pine, but I can smell cat urine from a mile away.
2023-01-04 18:04:55 <KipIngram   > If you smell the Pretty Litter it's time to change it.
2023-01-04 18:05:09 <KipIngram   > It has good longevity.
2023-01-04 18:05:11 <decay       > that's how I operate.
2023-01-04 18:05:39 <decay       > if the stank is rank it's time to change it.
2023-01-04 18:06:00 <KipIngram   > https://www.amazon.com/12lbs-Pretty-Litter-Health-Monitoring/dp/B09PGHNNZN/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=pretty+litter&qid=1672873537&sr=8-5
2023-01-04 18:06:16 <decay       > the difference between pine litter and the traditional clumping clay/sand litter is night and fucking day. it's just sawdust when moisture hits it.
2023-01-04 18:06:27 <KipIngram   > It turns color if it detects any germs etc.
2023-01-04 18:06:27 <decay       > less clean-up if he gets it on his paws, and it's usually just individual pellets.
2023-01-04 18:06:28 <Zarutian_iPad> as cats ar carnivores their digestive system needs to break down more proteins which iirc have lot of phosphore compounds that can get expelled through their pee when their body does not require them
2023-01-04 18:07:07 <decay       > https://www.amazon.com/Small-Pet-Select-Premium-Pelleted/dp/B08454C9SF
2023-01-04 18:07:19 <KipIngram   > We've had six cats in the house, but as of today we're down to four - one of my daughters is moving to North Carolina for graduate school, and she's taking her two with her.
2023-01-04 18:07:27 <decay       > hot damn, six cats?!
2023-01-04 18:07:46 <KipIngram   > Yeah, we first just had one, and then another, and then...
2023-01-04 18:07:58 <KipIngram   > We've had six cats and two dogs in the house.  :-)
2023-01-04 18:08:03 <decay       > dios mio
2023-01-04 18:08:07 <KipIngram   > They're great.
2023-01-04 18:08:11 <KipIngram   > Part of the family.
2023-01-04 18:08:21 <Zarutian_iPad> one guy I know made a contraption out of pipe/bottle cleaner that his cats use to get the sand of their paws
2023-01-04 18:08:22 <KipIngram   > I can't imagine being without them now.
2023-01-04 18:08:38 <KipIngram   > My wife got the first one when a neighbor posted for a home on Facebook.
2023-01-04 18:09:02 <KipIngram   > He got in his truck in downtown Houston and headed home, and out on the interstate a few minutes later he heard screaming.
2023-01-04 18:09:07 <KipIngram   > Cat was in his engine compartment.
2023-01-04 18:09:14 <decay       > oh fuck.
2023-01-04 18:09:15 <KipIngram   > The metal was starting to get hot.
2023-01-04 18:09:22 <KipIngram   > His poor little paw pads were burned.
2023-01-04 18:09:28 <decay       > awww fuck, poor baby!
2023-01-04 18:09:29 <Zarutian_iPad> he told me it was a bit of a project to get the cats to understand its function
2023-01-04 18:09:43 <KipIngram   > He's my favorite of the whole bunch - I love him more than I ever thought I could love an animal.
2023-01-04 18:09:44 <veltas      > Mon Dieu!
2023-01-04 18:09:54 <decay       > did his pads heal correctly?
2023-01-04 18:10:01 <KipIngram   > I still shutter when I think about how easily he could have just bought it.
2023-01-04 18:10:09 <KipIngram   > If the guy had turned on his radio or something?
2023-01-04 18:10:14 <KipIngram   > Yeah, they recovered fine.
2023-01-04 18:10:19 <decay       > lotta rats suffer that fate.
2023-01-04 18:10:28 <Zarutian_iPad> but when the cats learned how useful the contraption was to get the sand of they use it
2023-01-04 18:10:32 <KipIngram   > He's Apollo.
2023-01-04 18:10:40 <KipIngram   > Just a standard gray tabby.
2023-01-04 18:10:42 <decay       > should call him icarus: nearly burned up.
2023-01-04 18:10:47 <KipIngram   > Oh...
2023-01-04 18:10:55 <KipIngram   > That's so good - we really should have.
2023-01-04 18:10:57 <veltas      > Man, listen to that baby purr! Wait...
2023-01-04 18:11:00 <KipIngram   > Too late now.
2023-01-04 18:11:08 <decay       > hahaha, I like apollo better though.
2023-01-04 18:11:10 <decay       > stronk baby
2023-01-04 18:11:21 <Zarutian_iPad> well, Apollo is the greek sun god, no?
2023-01-04 18:11:33 <decay       > yep.
2023-01-04 18:11:47 <veltas      > My dog acts like a cat, she essentially all but purrs when you fuss her
2023-01-04 18:11:57 <KipIngram   > Anyway, we had lost a dog (old age) not too long before.  My wife had said she never wanted another pet, but... that was just grief talking.  She saw this little guy's picture and pounced right on him.
2023-01-04 18:12:21 <KipIngram   > But seriously - I want inside the house pets for the rest of my life.
2023-01-04 18:12:27 <KipIngram   > They add too much fun to things.
2023-01-04 18:12:28 <veltas      > Nobody wants to 'replace' their dead pets, but really there is a hole left when they go
2023-01-04 18:12:35 <veltas      > Just need time
2023-01-04 18:12:43 <KipIngram   > Exactly.
2023-01-04 18:13:09 <decay       > when our dog of like... 12+ years died, we immediately had to get another dog in order to fill the gap. through our tears we adopted a lovely de-barked rough collie.
2023-01-04 18:13:17 <decay       > literally the same day.
2023-01-04 18:13:18 <Zarutian_iPad> re rats in car engines: whythe heck did anyone think it was ok to thin the wire insulation rubber/plastic with soy?
2023-01-04 18:13:34 <decay       > Zarutian_iPad: _that's_ why they get into the insulation?!
2023-01-04 18:14:04 <decay       > (we didn't debark her, some insane douchebag did. but she could still bark, if not hoarsely.)
2023-01-04 18:14:10 <Zarutian_iPad> one aspect of it
2023-01-04 18:14:33 <decay       > I imagined it was the heat of the engine and starvation.
2023-01-04 18:15:13 <veltas      > Same day? That's like a rebound
2023-01-04 18:15:21 <veltas      > But rebounds can be for life too
2023-01-04 18:15:30 <decay       > yeah. we loved her forever.
2023-01-04 18:15:40 <decay       > had to rehome her when we moved because she wouldn't take the trip. :(
2023-01-04 18:15:43 <Zarutian_iPad> re barking dogs: one guy turned a ‘debark’ collar into a beeper. Sounded like a squeeky toy
2023-01-04 18:16:33 <Zarutian_iPad> drove the neighbour nuts when the dog figgured out how to ‘subvocalize’ or activate it without making a sound himself
2023-01-04 18:16:50 <decay       > incredibly smart.
2023-01-04 18:41:35 <veltas      > Yeah I would have also assumed cat getting in engine for warmth
2023-01-04 18:42:04 <veltas      > I've heard other unfortunate stories about cats looking for warmth, but thought you could just check under the car first
2023-01-04 18:42:16 <veltas      > Have to check under the bonet too now apparently!
2023-01-04 18:43:26 <thrig       > the cat could also be in a pipe
2023-01-04 19:15:42 <veltas      > Cat was inside my tyre all along