2023-01-14 12:36:42 <KipIngram   > Wow, I had no idea the HP-41C community is still as large and active as it is.
2023-01-14 12:36:55 <KipIngram   > That calculator just really captured a fan base.
2023-01-14 15:15:18 <KipIngram   > MrMobius: Check this out:
2023-01-14 15:15:20 <KipIngram   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCKk9GyXi3Q
2023-01-14 15:15:25 <KipIngram   > Guy's built a calculator.
2023-01-14 15:15:44 <KipIngram   > He used a touchscreen, but allowed it to move vertically so that some tactile feedback occurs.
2023-01-14 15:15:53 <KipIngram   > He gets a "click" by the mechanism underneath.
2023-01-14 15:16:12 <KipIngram   > And on top of that, he put transparent hinged "keys," so he actually does have something physical to touch and push.
2023-01-14 15:16:20 <KipIngram   > And he can dynamically re-label his "keys" on the fly.
2023-01-14 15:16:31 <KipIngram   > It actually looks pretty damn nice - I may need to try this.
2023-01-14 15:17:08 <KipIngram   > Apparently there are "lcd keys" available.  See here:
2023-01-14 15:17:31 <KipIngram   > https://lcd-keys.com/
2023-01-14 15:17:44 <KipIngram   > I don't know how to get them or how much they cost, though - I've sent a query.
2023-01-14 15:17:59 <KipIngram   > But this approach in the video with a touchscreen would have to be a lot cheaper, I think.
2023-01-14 15:28:45 <KipIngram   > The main downside of this, though, is that he's entirely cut himself off from any sort of "gesture" functionality that a touch screen would have made possible, and also any sort of transient "full screen display" (graphs, etc.).
2023-01-14 15:29:14 <KipIngram   > It was the clear plastic key layer that took those capabilities away.
2023-01-14 15:35:54 <MrMobius    > KipIngram: so I see you found the HHC videos :)
2023-01-14 15:36:32 <MrMobius    > I presented at HHC 2019 and 2021 but saw the presentation about that calculator from home since 2020 was virtual
2023-01-14 15:37:48 <MrMobius    > speaking of HP41 still being active, you can stay busy a very long time watching all those presentations. just the HP41 ones will take you a long time
2023-01-14 15:38:18 <MrMobius    > I have all the videos except last years on a thumb drive but havent made it past the mid 90s yet
2023-01-14 15:38:32 <KipIngram   > Oh, he's got all details of how he built in the keystroke motion.
2023-01-14 15:38:32 <MrMobius    > I think ive seen 2012 or so on
2023-01-14 15:38:44 <MrMobius    > yes, very impressive prject!
2023-01-14 15:43:27 <KipIngram   > Definitely gives me ideas.  Though I've found that I don't object too much to calc emulators on my phone, and there's no tactile feedback there.
2023-01-14 15:43:48 <KipIngram   > I'd probably be tempted to just do a touch screen unit and be able to use the whole screen for graphs and stuff when I wanted to.
2023-01-14 15:44:16 <KipIngram   > This really does tell me again, though, how interesting 3D printers can make things.  I really need to bite that bullet at some point.
2023-01-14 15:47:43 <KipIngram   > Also I think being able to gesture input things is a useful thing.
2023-01-14 15:48:16 <MrMobius    > I have an Ender 3 which is awesome
2023-01-14 15:48:22 <MrMobius    > I think those are down to $99 now
2023-01-14 15:48:49 <MrMobius    > the thing ive found about phone emus is they may work for a few calculations but you would not want to spend an hour working on a program on there
2023-01-14 15:49:08 <MrMobius    > I tried to get just a little BASIC interpretter going on my phone and the experience was terrible
2023-01-14 15:55:44 <KipIngram   > I'd want to be able to write my programs on my notebook and bluetooth them over.
2023-01-14 15:55:50 <KipIngram   > Or something.
2023-01-14 15:56:03 <KipIngram   > I want a programming environment that LOOKS LIKE Forth block editing.
2023-01-14 15:56:37 <KipIngram   > Main reason for a notebook link is because you really just can't beat a keyboard and a roomy screen for programming.
2023-01-14 15:57:14 <KipIngram   > I would like to be able to open my blocks and peck on them with the calc itself, but I would expect to use that for tweaks, not major programming.
2023-01-14 15:57:38 <KipIngram   > I will check out the Ender 3.
2023-01-14 15:58:23 <KipIngram   > I see it listed at $189.
2023-01-14 15:58:50 <KipIngram   > But I see 'em on ebay for under $100.
2023-01-14 16:10:32 <KipIngram   > What I'm particularly interested in right now is touch-screen based gadgets made as thin as possible.  I'm imagining the touch screen itself as A "layer, and then a second layer split between a pcb carrying all the (very low form factor) circuitry and a thin battery.  Then a plastic case.  So just those three layers and nothing else - I'd like to try to get it down under a half-inch.
2023-01-14 16:11:00 <KipIngram   > Very narrow bezel around the screen itself.
2023-01-14 16:11:49 <KipIngram   > Discrete power button somewhere, but otherwise no mechanical controls whatsoever - completely touch based.
2023-01-14 16:12:19 <KipIngram   > Tablet size is interesting, but I'm more interested in "palm-size."
2023-01-14 16:13:22 <KipIngram   > And ideally power efficient enough to be able to operate for a day on a charge.  Not "high intensity ops" all day, of course, but "on" with reasonable user interface activity for a day.
2023-01-14 16:13:32 <KipIngram   > I don't know if that's all really in reach or not.
2023-01-14 16:13:53 <KipIngram   > It would be with e-ink, but I just don't think it's ready for the kind of things I'd want to do yet.
2023-01-14 16:14:03 <KipIngram   > Maybe that'll advance in coming years.
2023-01-14 16:14:36 <KipIngram   > Apparently you CAN update just a portion of some e-ink displays, but you can only do it a small number of times before you have to do a full-screen refresh.
2023-01-14 16:14:50 <KipIngram   > There's some kind of negative consequence if you push that too far.
2023-01-14 16:15:07 <KipIngram   > almost sounded like it could damage the thing, but I'm not sure.
2023-01-14 16:15:33 <decay       > good luck repairing touchscreen devices.
2023-01-14 16:15:51 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I know.
2023-01-14 16:16:07 <KipIngram   > Strategy there would be ot make it easy to replace the touch screen.
2023-01-14 16:16:54 <KipIngram   > I was really impressed with the touch screen longevity on the Palm Vx organizer back in the late 90's, but my experience since then, with later products, has been that they just wear out sooner than I think they should.
2023-01-14 16:17:08 <KipIngram   > You get bad spots on the screen where your touches aren't picked up as well anymore.
2023-01-14 16:17:40 <KipIngram   > And on later Palm organizers after a few weeks or months I'd have a little cloudy looking patch over the grafitti area.
2023-01-14 16:18:05 <KipIngram   > So I was annoyed - they proved with the Palm Vx that they knew how to make one right, and then they just stopped doing it.
2023-01-14 16:18:13 <decay       > the late 90s were resistive screens vs. capacitive.
2023-01-14 16:18:20 <decay       > and not glass.
2023-01-14 16:18:27 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  You can still buy both.
2023-01-14 16:18:36 <KipIngram   > That video I posted earlier was resistive.
2023-01-14 16:19:56 <decay       > ..I don't get why this is a thing. if you want switches, do switches. if you want a lack of haptic feedback, use a touchscreen.
2023-01-14 16:20:08 <decay       > the switches can be replaced.
2023-01-14 16:20:14 <decay       > they're just a mechanical design.
2023-01-14 16:20:25 <KipIngram   > He wanted to be able to dynamically change the symbols on the "keys".
2023-01-14 16:20:41 <KipIngram   > He couldn't afford those "real" lcd keys that I also linked.
2023-01-14 16:20:45 <decay       > meh.
2023-01-14 16:20:48 <decay       > overrated.
2023-01-14 16:21:03 <KipIngram   > Well, like I said, I do ok with a non-moving touch screen.
2023-01-14 16:21:20 <KipIngram   > But as MrMobius noted, it's not idea for major work.
2023-01-14 16:21:35 <KipIngram   > that's what notebooks excel at.
2023-01-14 16:22:10 <KipIngram   > I'd want a notebook link I didn't have to fret over; I don't want to have to turn stuff on and establish a link and so on.
2023-01-14 16:22:27 <decay       > bret victor said it better than I could, why replicate a medium when the medium you have is stronger.
2023-01-14 16:22:29 <decay       > paper is weak.
2023-01-14 16:22:30 <KipIngram   > I'd like for the gadget just to check to see if it's local to its server every now and again and just automatically sync.
2023-01-14 16:22:38 <KipIngram   > Transparently.
2023-01-14 16:23:02 <KipIngram   > So I'd just have a folder on the notebook for that, and just by being nearby that would sync with the gadget.
2023-01-14 16:23:20 <KipIngram   > But whenever it wasn't doing that, it'd turn all that circuitry off.
2023-01-14 16:24:28 <KipIngram   > I'd have a dock that I kept it in normally, and anytime I wanted I could just pick it up, slip it into my shirt pocket, and go.
2023-01-14 16:26:00 <KipIngram   > Bluetooth would be a fine way to do the physical link, but I'd want to wrap some automation around it.
2023-01-14 16:28:33 <KipIngram   > Oh... info on really thin touch screen control boards here:
2023-01-14 16:28:35 <KipIngram   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrqdHVeBkp4
2023-01-14 16:30:49 <KipIngram   > Ah, nice video.
2023-01-14 16:49:33 <MrMobius    > It's also surprisingly hard to make decent calculator keys. The LCD idea solves a lot of problems
2023-01-14 16:53:43 <KipIngram   > Yeah.
2023-01-14 16:54:21 <KipIngram   > Actually, I questioned whether what I wanted battery life wise is feasible.  Of course it is - if I turn off bluetooth and wifi and cellular on my phone, it'll go for a couple of days, no problem.
2023-01-14 16:54:36 <KipIngram   > And it's under half an inch, and has a screen in the right size range.
2023-01-14 16:54:47 <KipIngram   > So sure - should be workable.
2023-01-14 17:16:23 <KipIngram   > Man, I've been watching reMarkable products for some years now, but have just never been willing to bite.  You look at the unit itself, and it seems affordable.
2023-01-14 17:17:02 <KipIngram   > But then you need to add the stylus, and the folio to carry it in and so on, and each of those is expensive too.  Every time I've checked (over 5-6 years), you wind up $700 or so in by the time you have a complete setup.
2023-01-14 17:17:24 <KipIngram   > Their big claim is that it's a true "writing on paper" experience, and videos I've watched have seemed to support that.
2023-01-14 17:17:45 <KipIngram   > But... $700 is just a little bit out of "for fun' range for me so far, so... Not yet.
2023-01-14 17:18:16 <KipIngram   > I've tried using a tablet for taking notes in meetings and doodling around and so on, but it's just not true enough to paper to satisfy.
2023-01-14 17:18:48 <KipIngram   > There's always that layer of glass between the stylus tip and where the mark actually appears, and that really undermines careful sketching and even writing for that matter.
2023-01-14 17:19:11 <KipIngram   > reMarkable LOOKS like it would overcome that, but... ouch.
2023-01-14 17:19:42 <KipIngram   > Having such a device that I could use for noodling and would also double as my ereader; that would be pretty cool.
2023-01-14 17:21:52 <KipIngram   > Wow.
2023-01-14 17:21:54 <KipIngram   > https://global.royole.com/us/flexible-display
2023-01-14 18:38:38 <KipIngram   > This is nice looking:
2023-01-14 18:38:39 <KipIngram   > https://www.matrixorbital.com/eve3-50a-ips
2023-01-14 18:39:00 <KipIngram   > It's a self-contained platform - GPU and graphics RAM on-board.
2023-01-14 18:39:49 <KipIngram   > Up to 16 MB of SPI-accessible flash.
2023-01-14 18:40:07 <KipIngram   > There's a similar one with capacitive touch option, rather than t his one's resistive.
2023-01-14 18:40:19 <KipIngram   > Nowhere can I see info on how thick it is, though.
2023-01-14 18:40:52 <KipIngram   > The other one, with capacitive touch option, also offers haptic feedback as an option.
2023-01-14 18:44:21 <KipIngram   > Just a few mm shy of 5"; otherwise it's basically index card size.