2023-02-27 00:40:45 <nmz-        > thanks for the hints crc
2023-02-27 00:42:15 <nmz-        > I've found that labeling functions as Uppercase seems nice? and that I hate pressing the shift character for anything.
2023-02-27 02:07:54 <JITn        >  nmz- C++ compilers mangle names with it's instance of Hungarian Notation.
2023-02-27 08:14:50 <veltas      > KipIngram: LotR full of interesting real-world analogues and insirations
2023-02-27 08:15:55 <veltas      > The Bible, Beowulf, fairies, Arthurian legend, european history, all sorts blended into it quite masterfully
2023-02-27 08:16:52 <veltas      > And language evolution as well
2023-02-27 08:18:07 <veltas      > I think the cosmology is a very interesting analogue to the bible, anyway
2023-02-27 08:18:52 <veltas      > LotR is also now firmly a product of a previous era, it would be entirely impossible for someone to write something like that again today
2023-02-27 08:19:01 <veltas      > It's like it was written by aliens at this point
2023-02-27 08:19:04 <veltas      > Or elves
2023-02-27 09:57:11 <nmz-        > JITn: and that is bad or good?
2023-02-27 10:08:40 <KipIngram   > veltas: yes, I agree with you.  I don't think we'll ever see anything like it again.
2023-02-27 10:09:35 <KipIngram   > I think it deserves to be thought of in that same tier of ancient classics you mentioned, like Beowulf and so on.
2023-02-27 10:09:39 <thrig       > nor Blazing Saddles
2023-02-27 10:09:48 <KipIngram   > Well, that goes without saying.  :-)
2023-02-27 10:10:15 <KipIngram   > Tolkien's work is just a complete "story of everything."  A full cosmology and mythology.
2023-02-27 10:27:00 <JITn        > nmz-: I don't like ""C++ name magling"" at all.
2023-02-27 10:34:44 <KipIngram   > thrig: I think Blazing Saddles is the most OVERT example of something that couldn't be filmed today.
2023-02-27 10:35:02 <KipIngram   > It was daring to film it when they did, I think.
2023-02-27 10:35:14 <KipIngram   > But we just had more of a sense of humor back then.
2023-02-27 10:39:18 <JITn        > nmz-: Symbolic Expression of Algebraic Data Type?  Example: (= (Unicode 65) (index (UTF-8 321) 0)).  Assumin indexing starting with 0.
2023-02-27 13:42:18 <KipIngram   > God, I feel like I'm managing children on the Dresden reddit this morning.
2023-02-27 13:42:23 <KipIngram   > Guess it's afternoon now.
2023-02-27 13:43:27 <KipIngram   > Someone posted a "sarcastic post" caricaturing the differences in the way Butcher describes men vs. women (i.e., accusing him of sexualizing women, which isn't entirely untrue).
2023-02-27 13:43:59 <KipIngram   > So he posts that - the more conservative crowd hits back with mild criticisms of the more liberal mentality.  The other side hits back and escalates a little more.
2023-02-27 13:44:13 <KipIngram   > It's not over the line yet - but it WILL GET THERE - just wait and see.
2023-02-27 13:44:31 <thrig       > do you bite your thumb at me, sir
2023-02-27 13:44:36 <KipIngram   > No one can bear to let the other side have the last word on stuff like t his.
2023-02-27 13:45:00 <KipIngram   > I predict I'll wind up having to lock comments on that one.
2023-02-27 13:45:26 <Zarutian_iPad> this is why I have had two sock puppets to start these kind of flamewars
2023-02-27 13:45:38 <KipIngram   > I've commented and asked that folks refrain from doing more than discussing the books themselves, but I doubt it will stop it.
2023-02-27 13:46:02 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-02-27 13:46:47 <KipIngram   > Well, as I said, Butcher DOES do this to some degree - it's not an unfair criticism.  But it's never really "bothered' me - there's just so much GOOD in those books that I can't see wasting time searching for things to criticise.
2023-02-27 13:47:17 <KipIngram   > Here's the title of the post, which is where the caricaturing lay:
2023-02-27 13:47:33 <KipIngram   > "Describing a guy: " His knuckles were the size and shape of marbles." describing a woman: 3 paragraphs on the shape and movement of her breasts."
2023-02-27 13:47:53 <KipIngram   > And of course that is overstating it, but not "inventing it."
2023-02-27 13:48:51 <KipIngram   > I've always just taken those passages (the actual ones in the books) as arising from the fact that we are situated as we read the books INSIDE THE HEAD of a typical male.  And guys DO very carefully take note of the sexual aspects of women.  We're not innocent of that.
2023-02-27 13:48:54 <Zarutian_iPad> so softcore litporn?
2023-02-27 13:49:02 <KipIngram   > So it's very realistic, in my mind.
2023-02-27 13:49:21 <KipIngram   > Well, you'd have to read the books to see how he actually says things - as i said that ^^ is a caricature.
2023-02-27 13:49:36 <Zarutian_iPad> sure
2023-02-27 13:49:57 <Zarutian_iPad> but as you said, this is told from the perspective of a guy
2023-02-27 13:50:19 <KipIngram   > Exactly - it's always seemed fairly accurate and realistic to me, so it barely even gets my attention.
2023-02-27 13:50:55 <Zarutian_iPad> so, what was the name of the romance rippers that supermarkets often sell
2023-02-27 13:51:45 <Zarutian_iPad> those are often writen from the perspective of horny young women
2023-02-27 13:51:55 <KipIngram   > Yeah.
2023-02-27 13:52:58 <KipIngram   > I once tried to read the "True Blood" books.  Those are told from inside the head of a female protagonist, and written by a woman.  And I think she does the same kind of thing - puts in quite realistic presentations of how women tick internally.  And those DID get my attention, because they were so "foreign" to me.  But like I said, I expect their also probably quite accurate.
2023-02-27 13:53:09 <KipIngram   > A woman would have to tell us yay or nay ont that, I guess.
2023-02-27 13:53:25 <KipIngram   > I stopped rerading those books because of it, but I wouldn't see fit to criticise her over it.
2023-02-27 13:54:47 <Zarutian_iPad> and then there are the logs of solomov bayesian inference engines with subsumption model based attention and prioritization control
2023-02-27 13:55:12 <Zarutian_iPad> THAT is fricking alien
2023-02-27 13:57:12 <Zarutian_iPad> often the super goal seeking behaviours colour what the thing finds more salient than other
2023-02-27 13:58:06 <thrig       > hence a woman inventing Láadan
2023-02-27 14:54:28 <KipIngram   > Or a man inventing Gor.
2023-02-27 14:54:42 <KipIngram   > That's one of the most aggregious ones I've seen.
2023-02-27 14:54:59 <KipIngram   > I imagine that series upsets a whole lot of people.
2023-02-27 15:07:47 <vms14       > KipIngram: did you think about the debugger?
2023-02-27 15:08:42 <vms14       > I had that way of triggering a repl at any point of the program, but it's not very useful to find bugs
2023-02-27 15:08:59 <vms14       > I wonder if you came with any related ideas
2023-02-27 15:09:18 <vms14       > I assume if you make a debugger will be a full featured one
2023-02-27 15:09:35 <vms14       > and you'll even be able to know what's on the registers xD
2023-02-27 15:10:07 <KipIngram   > No, I haven't thought any more about that - I feel like it will be a relatively straightforward development when the time comes.
2023-02-27 15:10:47 <KipIngram   > Basically I see it as managing breakpoints inserted into the code, which will involve a data structure to remember what was in those locations previously, so I can put it back after I've passed the breakpoint.
2023-02-27 15:10:59 <KipIngram   > For single stepping I'll just move that breakpoint along one notch at a time.
2023-02-27 15:11:21 <KipIngram   > I'll have to write code to record what memory locations I want to monitor, etc. etc. - but that all seems like straightforward stuff to me.
2023-02-27 15:11:24 <KipIngram   > Though tedious.
2023-02-27 15:11:50 <KipIngram   > I will probably want some sort of decompilation going on in that too.
2023-02-27 15:12:41 <KipIngram   > Other than all that it will mostly be a matter of deciding how to present all that info on the screen.
2023-02-27 15:13:43 <vms14       > decompilation into assembly code?
2023-02-27 15:30:58 <KipIngram   > No.  Well, possibly, but I was actually referring to decompilation fROM RAM back to "readable Forth," by looking up names in the dictionary.
2023-02-27 15:31:25 <KipIngram   > Around the region being single-stepped through, just so I can see what's comming.
2023-02-27 15:40:44 <vms14       > hmm
2023-02-27 15:41:07 <vms14       > I hope with the time I end with something that really helps me to find bugs
2023-02-27 15:41:18 <vms14       > still the most efficient way I see is just to factor
2023-02-27 15:42:09 <vms14       > I have to make a transpiler yet, so for now factoring into smaller words will make it even more slow
2023-02-27 15:42:20 <vms14       > actually much slower
2023-02-27 15:42:39 <vms14       > but I won't care about that and when I'll do I'll start with the transpiler
2023-02-27 15:43:02 <vms14       > the transpiler makes colon words cost nothing, which is cool
2023-02-27 15:43:56 <vms14       > for now I want to get some results first
2023-02-27 15:44:35 <veltas      > A debugger is one of the first things I wrote at my job, in the first few months
2023-02-27 15:44:51 <veltas      > And I did it because I was interested to see how it would work and saw a section on debugging facilities in my CPU's manual
2023-02-27 15:45:24 <veltas      > And I remember my boss wasn't sure if I had plagiarised the code at first, he gave me "the talk" on copying code from the internet
2023-02-27 15:46:08 <vms14       > xD
2023-02-27 15:46:10 <veltas      > He was quite happy when he found out I had in fact written it myself
2023-02-27 15:46:31 <vms14       > that means it was good
2023-02-27 15:47:00 <veltas      > But I will say that it wasn't that complicated really, with the right documentation
2023-02-27 15:47:10 <veltas      > I think it's actually harder to do this with an OS which just gets in the way
2023-02-27 15:47:27 <veltas      > In ring 0 it's really easy you just write the breakpoint address to a register, etc.
2023-02-27 15:47:31 <veltas      > Things like that
2023-02-27 15:48:18 <veltas      > I don't know how it's done in Linux, maybe with ptrace
2023-02-27 15:50:52 <KipIngram   > Well, I do think it's true that the best way to wind up with no bugs is to  not commit them in the first place, and factoring well helps with that.
2023-02-27 15:51:26 <KipIngram   > But I do think being able to walk along the execution of the code and watch things happen helps you chase htem down.
2023-02-27 15:51:50 <KipIngram   > I do that now, without any debugger, just by moving "something" (a print, an exit, whatever) along gradually through my code at each layer until I find the trouble spot.
2023-02-27 15:51:54 <veltas      > More often than I'd like it's easier to just rewrite subpar code than to carry on with it
2023-02-27 15:51:58 <KipIngram   > Then I drop down a layer there and repeat.
2023-02-27 15:52:10 <KipIngram   > Until I eventually find the exact place something's not doing what I expected it to do.
2023-02-27 15:52:27 <KipIngram   > Yeah, that's true - sometimes starting over is the easiest thing to do.
2023-02-27 15:52:29 <veltas      > I need to get better at throwing out shit code honestly
2023-02-27 15:52:35 <KipIngram   > Really just depends on the situation.
2023-02-27 15:53:45 <veltas      > An intern at work has been working on some old dumpster fire of code for months and I have got him to just start rewriting it simply, I think in about a week he's going to have 95% of the functionality in a more maintainble form
2023-02-27 15:54:29 <veltas      > Writing code that's actually worth trying to understand and not rewrite on the spot is actually kind of a high bar
2023-02-27 15:56:07 <thrig       > that might actually take time and cost money
2023-02-27 15:56:45 <veltas      > d'oh!
2023-02-27 15:57:01 <KipIngram   > Bingo.
2023-02-27 15:57:11 <KipIngram   > And there's the world's big problem.
2023-02-27 15:58:39 <KipIngram   > See, corporations would have prevented the whole bad situation in Lord of the Rings, because the execs would never have let Celabrimbor and Anatar spend THREE HUNDRED YEARS figuring out how to make rings of power.
2023-02-27 15:58:52 <KipIngram   > The damn things would just never have shown up.
2023-02-27 16:00:54 <vms14       > I always disliked patching
2023-02-27 16:01:02 <vms14       > I tend to rewrite it from scratch
2023-02-27 16:01:20 <vms14       > most of the time there's no need for it, but I do it anyways xD
2023-02-27 16:01:36 <veltas      > Our experiences colour stuff a lot, I mean depending on the code patching can be a pleasure, or an exercise in trying to look away from the million bugs to find the one you were sent down for
2023-02-27 16:02:10 <vms14       > still usually as I'm making a concat lang and learning by the process, when I use it I discover design flaws or I want to do something in a different way
2023-02-27 16:02:26 <vms14       > at those times is just better to start from scratch I guess
2023-02-27 16:02:48 <vms14       > still it has a lot of design flaws xD
2023-02-27 16:03:12 <vms14       > but once you get the idea rewriting is fast
2023-02-27 16:03:35 <KipIngram   > vms14: I regard what you're doing as "grand experimentation," and that's almost always educational somehow.  Often in ways you don't immediately realize.
2023-02-27 16:03:48 <KipIngram   > Just "playing with stuff" is a great way to learn.
2023-02-27 16:03:53 <vms14       > yeah, I started having no idea of what I was doing
2023-02-27 16:03:58 <vms14       > :D
2023-02-27 16:04:19 <veltas      > Yeah there's not a lot of people who can say "I've written a compiler" and yet most of the regulars in this channel have
2023-02-27 16:04:20 <vms14       > now I have a bit more clear what I want and how I want it
2023-02-27 16:04:49 <vms14       > the next step is a transpiler, is a bit trickier, but not that bad
2023-02-27 16:05:26 <vms14       > immediate words are just words that execute at "transpile" time
2023-02-27 16:05:56 <vms14       > but I'll have a similar thing which I'll name "code gen words"
2023-02-27 16:06:09 <vms14       > they also execute at transpile time, but return code
2023-02-27 16:07:15 <vms14       > I was doing it in javascript xD but I don't get much fun writing js code
2023-02-27 16:07:36 <vms14       > still I'm not at your level, I'm not even touching C, nor assembly
2023-02-27 16:08:14 <vms14       > but it's not what I aim for, my aim is to use existing libraries to do general stuff a "modern language" usually does
2023-02-27 16:08:58 <vms14       > I could use C, but it's a pain and don't really think I need the performance
2023-02-27 16:09:48 <vms14       > still maybe I end trying it again, I already had a stack being able to have any kind of data and the performance of C could make the lang fast enough so I don't need a transpiler
2023-02-27 16:11:39 <vms14       > I sometimes want to touch assembly, but having a language able to do all this stuff I want would be a pain and makes no sense
2023-02-27 16:12:08 <vms14       > with a high level lang I just make "bindings"
2023-02-27 16:13:58 <vms14       > it's a 5 year old kid's language :D
2023-02-27 16:25:01 <KipIngram   > Yeah - in Forth immediate words usually just have a flag set in their header.
2023-02-27 16:25:25 <KipIngram   > If Forth sees that flag set, it just executes them instead of compiling them, even if its mode at that time is compiling.
2023-02-27 16:25:50 <KipIngram   > It's not too hard though, because that code usually executes or compiles based on STATE.
2023-02-27 16:25:59 <KipIngram   > So you just roll the bit into the test.
2023-02-27 16:26:42 <KipIngram   > You execute if STATE=0 OR if the bit is set.
2023-02-27 16:26:53 <KipIngram   > Only if the bit is clear AND STATE=1 do you compile.
2023-02-27 16:41:49 <veltas      > vms14: Having a high level language is a good niche IMO, we've already got really good embedded forths and desktop forths
2023-02-27 16:58:01 <vms14       > well the lang I'm making has almost nothing to do with a real Forth
2023-02-27 16:58:22 <vms14       > it's kind of a shame, but using a level language to implement Forth feels counterproductive
2023-02-27 16:58:40 <vms14       > I don't even have memory allocation, so I should fake it to provide allot, etc
2023-02-27 16:58:59 <vms14       > and my lang is kind of a joke xD
2023-02-27 16:59:18 <vms14       > but the reason is I fell in love with Forth, specially with the colon words
2023-02-27 16:59:44 <vms14       > and they're not so different from a function definition, but I love them for some reason
2023-02-27 17:00:08 <vms14       > : word word1 word2 word3 ;
2023-02-27 17:00:50 <vms14       > the sad part is I can't take forth as my main language and do all the stuff high level languages do, unless I make a real forth or find some ffi like gforth has
2023-02-27 17:01:34 <vms14       > also I don't really know Forth enough to implement something close to it
2023-02-27 17:01:51 <vms14       > but actually as long as I have colon words I'm happy :D
2023-02-27 17:01:51 <veltas      > Yeah in my opinion subroutines are a good thing
2023-02-27 17:02:05 <veltas      > They reduce code size
2023-02-27 17:03:04 <vms14       > still sometimes I miss the lisp syntax, specially because it's hard to do more than a hello world in my lang
2023-02-27 17:03:26 <vms14       > I don't even know my lang properly and is not well suited for programming after all
2023-02-27 17:03:47 <vms14       > a real forth or something closer would be better
2023-02-27 17:05:22 <veltas      > Have you tried brainfuck?
2023-02-27 17:08:39 <vms14       > xD no
2023-02-27 17:08:43 <vms14       > and I won't
2023-02-27 17:10:47 <veltas      > What about lisp?
2023-02-27 17:11:03 <veltas      > Oh you just said as much
2023-02-27 17:11:45 <vms14       > I loved common lisp, thought it was the best language I ever seen
2023-02-27 17:12:05 <vms14       > when I saw forth I started to have 0 interest in lisp
2023-02-27 17:12:14 <veltas      > I think goals are important for languages
2023-02-27 17:12:25 <vms14       > forth can also do metaprogramming as lisp, which is the main reason I loved it
2023-02-27 17:12:26 <veltas      > You need to think about what kinds of problems you want to solve with them
2023-02-27 17:12:47 <vms14       > veltas: my goal is to make my lang be my main language, able to do almost any program I want to make
2023-02-27 17:13:17 <veltas      > Then maybe redesign a bit if you can barely write Hello World
2023-02-27 17:13:27 <vms14       > that's why I use a high level lang to implement it, the only thing it cannot do is to be performant
2023-02-27 17:13:33 <vms14       > until I make a transpiler
2023-02-27 17:13:38 <veltas      > I'm not currently working on a forth either
2023-02-27 17:14:10 <vms14       > I don't really know what I love of forth so much
2023-02-27 17:14:22 <veltas      > It's very counter cultural
2023-02-27 17:14:26 <vms14       > but I'd guess is that it encourages factoring
2023-02-27 17:14:37 <vms14       > also it can do metaprogramming
2023-02-27 17:14:53 <vms14       > metaprogramming is one of the things I like the most of programming
2023-02-27 17:15:16 <vms14       > it lets you do stuff you'd never do
2023-02-27 17:15:47 <vms14       > idk how metaprogramming works in real forth, more than create does
2023-02-27 17:16:07 <vms14       > but in my lang I can just give a list and take it as code
2023-02-27 17:17:04 <veltas      > What I like about Forth is that it's an alternative compromise between machine and person, and it's designed to be practical
2023-02-27 17:17:12 <veltas      > It's lightweight
2023-02-27 17:17:51 <vms14       > what do you mean by alternative compromise
2023-02-27 17:18:03 <vms14       > I know you mean it does it differently, but how
2023-02-27 17:18:22 <veltas      > All programming languages are a compromise between machine and person
2023-02-27 17:18:31 <veltas      > Forth has a very different approach
2023-02-27 17:19:04 <veltas      > It's much more friendly to the machine, and tries to remain practical in the meantime
2023-02-27 17:19:48 <vms14       > so you mean that hides less than most languages do, without giving problems while doing that
2023-02-27 17:19:55 <vms14       > it also allows more freedom that way
2023-02-27 17:20:33 <vms14       > I always need freedom in a language
2023-02-27 17:20:44 <vms14       > that's why I won't use langs like java or python
2023-02-27 17:20:56 <vms14       > and also why I like lisp and perl
2023-02-27 17:21:50 <vms14       > perl even lets you build your own oop, I always thought the perl oop is a joke, but it's actually like a framework to build your own oop, which you can use directly if you don't want to build it
2023-02-27 17:22:02 <vms14       > it lets you decide what an object is and how it behaves
2023-02-27 17:22:12 <vms14       > I'm not a fan of oop anyways
2023-02-27 17:22:26 <vms14       > I like functional programming more
2023-02-27 17:22:57 <vms14       > which is funny cause fp nerds feel so smart using curry on their functions, and that's a feature a concatenative lang has by default
2023-02-27 17:23:06 <vms14       > : sum1 1 + ;
2023-02-27 17:23:20 <vms14       > easy as that
2023-02-27 17:23:22 <vms14       > :D
2023-02-27 17:23:52 <veltas      > Well sometimes order is necessary for freedom
2023-02-27 17:24:30 <vms14       > yeah, but when making software, including a programming language you can't assume the user will use your software as you think he will
2023-02-27 17:26:05 <veltas      > I think you can make good compromises based on your experience and what you want to see in a language
2023-02-27 17:26:53 <vms14       > freedom is not strictly necessary, even some people prefer to not have that freedom
2023-02-27 17:26:58 <vms14       > I just need it
2023-02-27 17:27:10 <vms14       > if I don't have it my creativity goes down
2023-02-27 17:27:27 <vms14       > also I like the language letting me express the ideas the way I see them
2023-02-27 17:28:03 <vms14       > which is a weird way :D
2023-02-27 17:28:03 <veltas      > I know how you feel
2023-02-27 17:28:15 <veltas      > I just do think it's too easy to fall into anarchy
2023-02-27 17:28:37 <vms14       > depends on the kind of software I'd guess
2023-02-27 17:28:53 <vms14       > for a programming language I don't think anarchy is actually a bad thing
2023-02-27 17:29:06 <vms14       > the resposibility always goes to the user
2023-02-27 17:29:06 <veltas      > Forth is definitely very anarchical
2023-02-27 17:29:19 <veltas      > And it's one of the things that attracts me
2023-02-27 17:29:28 <veltas      > But ultimately I do think that's a bad thing
2023-02-27 17:29:39 <vms14       > why?
2023-02-27 17:30:02 <vms14       > like it makes you loose more time instead of focusing?
2023-02-27 17:30:14 <veltas      > Yeah
2023-02-27 17:30:27 <veltas      > What is the point of programming anyway other than to get stuff done
2023-02-27 17:30:34 <veltas      > War is peace, freedom is slavery
2023-02-27 18:05:23 <nmz-        > Why, I love having to make my own stdlib just to make something that's basically 2 lines of shellscript
2023-02-27 18:05:33 <nmz-        > /s
2023-02-27 18:10:13 <thrig       > I wrote my own fail2ban. it had a few less CVE than fail2ban has racked up
2023-02-27 18:15:01 <vms14       > I had an implementation with 112 words defined and I was starting again for no reason xd
2023-02-27 18:15:47 <vms14       > ahaha it was the one with the . .. ... .... words
2023-02-27 18:16:12 <vms14       > . to print .. to concatenate strings ... concatenate lists and .... hashes
2023-02-27 18:16:37 <vms14       > even has a word named #!/usr/bin/env
2023-02-27 18:16:58 <vms14       > it does skip a line so it can be used as a script
2023-02-27 18:17:53 <vms14       > for some reason NetBSD refuses to use a hashbang that refers to an interpreted lang, so it has to be /usr/env
2023-02-27 18:18:48 <nmz-        > /usr/env not /usr/bin/env ?
2023-02-27 18:19:43 <vms14       > oh, in my system is on /usr/bin/env
2023-02-27 18:20:02 <vms14       > localhost$ which env => /usr/bin/env
2023-02-27 18:20:18 <vms14       > and I assumed in linux too
2023-02-27 18:22:04 <vms14       > also in linux
2023-02-27 18:22:06 <vms14       > https://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/finding-bash-perl-python-portably-using-env.html
2023-02-27 18:22:52 <vms14       > ah, sorry I'm dumb
2023-02-27 18:23:15 <vms14       > I did type it wrong the second time and I was looking at the first to see if you meant that
2023-02-27 18:24:43 <vms14       > https://termbin.com/9wuffx  this is some example code of that implementation
2023-02-27 18:24:52 <vms14       > it's part of the 99 lisp problems
2023-02-27 18:32:00 <vms14       > it's hard to read
2023-02-27 19:06:04 <vms14       > lol I'm having a hard time understanding what my old code does
2023-02-27 19:06:59 <vms14       > https://termbin.com/bhfak
2023-02-27 22:40:09 <KipIngram   > that can happen.  :-)
2023-02-27 22:40:22 <KipIngram   > That got to be the case with my Forth I wrote in gcc.
2023-02-27 23:43:28 <lisbeths    > What are the speeds like on sector forth compared to say jones forth
2023-02-27 23:44:43 <vms14       >  dave0: