2023-03-08 06:28:43 <Zarutian_iPad> this ChatGPT thing is causing certain folks to get their undies in a twist, which I find hillarious.
2023-03-08 06:29:55 <Zarutian_iPad> for instance there is someone complaining on n.y.c that is causing reputational harm to their business
2023-03-08 06:32:48 <Zarutian_iPad> something about a lawsuit that the complainer said was settled but ChatGPT said they lost.
2023-03-08 06:34:48 <Zarutian_iPad> only the complainer does not link to the resolution of the case at the courts website so one might well be being gaslighted by the complainer.
2023-03-08 07:18:22 <KipIngram   > I don't see how that's any different from a human information source making an error (if indeed an error was made).
2023-03-08 07:19:03 <KipIngram   > Now, what would impress me a little would be if ChatGPT would let you successfully point out an error on its part to it and mend its ways.
2023-03-08 07:19:23 <KipIngram   > And it would be even better if it apologized for erring.  :-)
2023-03-08 07:20:09 <KipIngram   > It's already obvious how this is going to unfold - first thing you know "live chat" with businesses online will be run by this stuff.
2023-03-08 07:20:30 <KipIngram   > I mean, it already is to some extent, but I mean more and I mean even when they tell you you're chatting with a human.
2023-03-08 07:20:36 <Zarutian_iPad> I treat ChatGPT output as hearsay, like most spewings of media.
2023-03-08 07:20:44 <KipIngram   > Precisely.
2023-03-08 07:21:01 <KipIngram   > Online information is definitely a caveat emptor thing.
2023-03-08 07:21:09 <KipIngram   > It's on you to be intelligent about what you believe.
2023-03-08 07:21:35 <KipIngram   > because it's not just about errors - the net is full of outright deliberate lies too.
2023-03-08 07:21:40 <Zarutian_iPad> the aforesaid complainer failed to link to the judgement in that case. Even though the judgement is that the parties settled.
2023-03-08 07:21:44 <KipIngram   > It's all about influence.
2023-03-08 07:22:44 <veltas      > KipIngram: The whole Tolkein craftsmen being bad has Christian roots again I think, people build idols, worship their own creation, worship themselves etc
2023-03-08 07:23:24 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: skurðgoðadýrkun
2023-03-08 07:23:26 <veltas      > Whereas the good forces are those that are more interested in tending to what was made by their own creator
2023-03-08 07:24:58 <KipIngram   > veltas: That's plausible, and Tolkien definitely had those roots.  But he was overtly opposed to industrialization.  That may have been ultimately connected to the Christian thing, of course, but he talked about it being demeaning and dehumanizing to the workers and bad for the environment and landscape.
2023-03-08 07:25:10 <veltas      > I think he linked that all together
2023-03-08 07:25:14 <KipIngram   > He was a really "rural and nature" oriented guy.
2023-03-08 07:25:15 <veltas      > I know he hated industrialisation as well
2023-03-08 07:25:17 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I can buy that.
2023-03-08 07:25:58 <KipIngram   > He clealry "thought about things" deeply, so he probably had a pretty big "superstructure" of ideas going on around it.
2023-03-08 07:26:29 <veltas      > I think everyone does, his spin is probably interesting to people today because most people have a more secular approach to philosophy
2023-03-08 07:26:35 <KipIngram   > Being an engineer, I guess I'm more "Aule like" than any of the other Valar, so... ooops.
2023-03-08 07:27:29 <KipIngram   > But it is interesting that both Sauron and Saruman, who both went bad, had "trained up" with Aule.
2023-03-08 07:27:50 <KipIngram   > And Aule was the other Vala that came closest to making a mistake.
2023-03-08 07:27:57 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: talking about lawsuits. A neighbour prevented a ‘sewer service’ recently. A party that had rented six years ago had moved out and was being sued by somebody. The lazy process server has left the docs on the doorstep after been repeatedly told the party had moved years ago.
2023-03-08 07:28:32 <KipIngram   > Oh my.  No - that doesn't quite get the job done.
2023-03-08 07:28:44 <veltas      > KipIngram: And yet Jesus was a carpenter, and likewise there would have been many good smiths in LotR
2023-03-08 07:28:47 <KipIngram   > I thought the whole point of those guys is that they had to put it in the party's hand and be able to testify to that.
2023-03-08 07:28:58 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-03-08 07:29:14 <KipIngram   > I don't think Tolkien was totally against the whole activity.
2023-03-08 07:29:34 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: so the neighbour, as he knew he would pass by the court in question, just dropped those docs of at the courthouse telling them they had been abandoned in piblic.
2023-03-08 07:29:36 <KipIngram   > And Feanor, also, who was most responsible for all the trouble among the elves, was a master craftsman.
2023-03-08 07:29:42 <Zarutian_iPad> public*.
2023-03-08 07:29:54 <KipIngram   > And Celibrimbor, the craftsman who helped "Anatar"/Sauron forge the Rings.
2023-03-08 07:30:11 <KipIngram   > Pretty much all of the strife arose around crafted objects.
2023-03-08 07:30:57 <veltas      > It fits reality, I mean look at all the strife and trouble around crafts of today
2023-03-08 07:30:59 <KipIngram   > Feanor was a real dick.  I think Celebrimbor was somewhat less at fault - more "naive" than "bad."
2023-03-08 07:31:05 <veltas      > Nuclear weapons, automation, AI etc
2023-03-08 07:31:12 <KipIngram   > I know.
2023-03-08 07:31:31 <veltas      > And us engineers are often naive
2023-03-08 07:31:34 <KipIngram   > And I've mouthed off plenty here about "big corporations."
2023-03-08 07:31:38 <KipIngram   > All the same kind of thing.
2023-03-08 07:31:44 <KipIngram   > We are indeed.
2023-03-08 07:31:54 <veltas      > So maybe we need to be conscientious engineers given the lessons of history
2023-03-08 07:31:58 <KipIngram   > We get swept up in the excitement and thrill of creating things.
2023-03-08 07:32:46 <KipIngram   > Look at the whole surveillance state thing.  People like us made that.
2023-03-08 07:33:15 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: turned out the party that was the target had moved out of the country those six years ago but had not bothered leaving a forwarding address.
2023-03-08 07:33:30 <veltas      > It's interesting that 'conscience' means 'with'-'knowing', the same root as 'science' - 'knowing'
2023-03-08 07:33:36 <KipIngram   > Looks like they may dodge the bullet.
2023-03-08 07:34:07 <veltas      > It's almost like the difference between intelligence and wisdom
2023-03-08 07:34:32 <KipIngram   > Yeah - the whole "we can, but should we?" thing.
2023-03-08 07:34:53 <KipIngram   > Often, though, the answer really is yes, because "If we don't, someone else will."
2023-03-08 07:34:55 <Zarutian_iPad> intelligence is knowing how to make salat, wisdom is that if you add lots of tomatos you get salsa
2023-03-08 07:34:56 <KipIngram   > It's a big world.
2023-03-08 07:35:07 <KipIngram   > lol
2023-03-08 07:35:27 <veltas      > Latinos are very wise
2023-03-08 07:35:59 <Zarutian_iPad> I got this from a AD&D joke
2023-03-08 07:36:03 <KipIngram   > Latinas are more fun, though.
2023-03-08 07:36:44 <veltas      > The thing about latin language is plural is masculine, sometimes even with a group of only women
2023-03-08 07:36:45 <KipIngram   > My wife's 50% Latina, though you'd never know it by looking at her.  Her dad's Iowa farmer genes stole that show.
2023-03-08 07:37:12 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: but the temperment?
2023-03-08 07:37:31 <veltas      > That's really the case in all language on earth, that masculine is a 'default'
2023-03-08 07:37:38 <KipIngram   > My wife's extremely level headed and "calm," but her mom is a real piece of work.
2023-03-08 07:37:46 <KipIngram   > totally the classic "fiery Latina."
2023-03-08 07:38:05 <veltas      > Probably because it's men that had to form common tongues to negotiate conflict and trade in households
2023-03-08 07:38:35 <KipIngram   > Yeah, and women were for a long time just "disregarded" in such things.
2023-03-08 07:38:54 <KipIngram   > which is interesting, given that even earlier you had whole cultures run by some kind of "priestess class."
2023-03-08 07:39:01 <veltas      > What's interesting to me is that in Hebrew the feminine is sometimes used for plurality or to denote divinity
2023-03-08 07:39:17 <KipIngram   > That is interesting.
2023-03-08 07:39:26 <KipIngram   > But maybe that goes back to that priestess thing?
2023-03-08 07:39:29 <veltas      > So God is sometimes given feminine words in old testament
2023-03-08 07:39:55 <KipIngram   > Yeah, and in other related holy writings.
2023-03-08 07:40:09 <veltas      > I think it's still down to male-dominated matters. But in this case men prefer to talk of women even if they're not involved
2023-03-08 07:40:13 <veltas      > Like how a ship is female
2023-03-08 07:40:24 <veltas      > "There she goes" etc
2023-03-08 07:40:54 <KipIngram   > I saw a video just recently on Jewish "mysticism," and the guy talked about that very thing; said there was a lot of "gender bending" in that old literature.
2023-03-08 07:41:02 <veltas      > It's not that women are disregarded, it's that language served a purpose and it wasn't optimised to include women in conversations they weren't having
2023-03-08 07:41:09 <veltas      > Which was most logical conversations of the day
2023-03-08 07:41:14 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: in english perhaps. In icelandic, a ship is it.
2023-03-08 07:42:01 <KipIngram   > One of the things that blew my mind was that back then in some cases if a guy had a nocturnal emission it was thought of as being caused by the demoness Lilith (who'd been Adam's first mate), and the man was regarded as having "married her."
2023-03-08 07:42:12 <KipIngram   > He'd go to his rabbi for a ceremony of divorce.
2023-03-08 07:42:14 <veltas      > Women were attending to the house, and women that actually had to run a house probably ended up with masculine language being applied to them
2023-03-08 07:42:32 <KipIngram   > And then bury this bowl under the lintel of his door to ward Lilith out - it was like the "divorce decree."
2023-03-08 07:43:08 <veltas      > The Lilith thing is considered aprocryphal by modern religion (at least Christianity afaik)
2023-03-08 07:43:15 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-03-08 07:43:15 <veltas      > Don't know about Judaism
2023-03-08 07:43:21 <veltas      > Or Islam
2023-03-08 07:43:48 <KipIngram   > Another interesting tidbit from that video was that the modern word "experiment" originated in the language associated with magic way back when.
2023-03-08 07:44:05 <KipIngram   > Which is pretty funny.  But science and magic had a pretty fuzzy line between them for a long time.
2023-03-08 07:44:18 <veltas      > The word 'magi' appears in bible which comes from the name for a zoroastrian priest
2023-03-08 07:44:22 <veltas      > or something like that
2023-03-08 07:44:31 <KipIngram   > That's exactly right - he said that too.
2023-03-08 07:44:32 <veltas      > And that's where 'magic' comes from as far as I know
2023-03-08 07:44:39 <KipIngram   > I hadn't know that previously.
2023-03-08 07:44:49 <KipIngram   > Yeah.
2023-03-08 07:44:51 <veltas      > Magic really was interchangeable with astronomy
2023-03-08 07:45:04 <Zarutian_iPad> one thing I heard somewhere that peoples of ‘hotter places’ were more likely infected by toxiplasma gondoli resulting them being more agressive, for the males, and more submissive for the females.
2023-03-08 07:45:14 <veltas      > The person who made the antikythera mechanism probably seemed like a sorcerer
2023-03-08 07:45:26 <KipIngram   > You bet.
2023-03-08 07:45:38 <KipIngram   > I guess he was a Feanor/Celibrimbor type.
2023-03-08 07:46:00 <Zarutian_iPad> a hypothesis rose that certain women got more agressive to compensate agains that
2023-03-08 07:46:07 <KipIngram   > Some of the Tolkien stuff I've seen recently explicitly said that the elves never quite "got" what men meant by "magic" - for them it was just "doing."
2023-03-08 07:46:51 <KipIngram   > Oh, also interesting is that in the original language that line that eventually became "Suffer not a witch to live" referred explicitly to EVIL magic perpetrators.
2023-03-08 07:47:00 <KipIngram   > There was a clear distinction between "good" and "bad" magic.
2023-03-08 07:47:03 <Zarutian_iPad> then as toxiplasma was eradicated or stymied those fierceness traits remained
2023-03-08 07:47:19 <KipIngram   > They got written into the culture.
2023-03-08 07:47:51 <Zarutian_iPad> magic is an interesting thing in its various forms
2023-03-08 07:48:00 <KipIngram   > Totally.
2023-03-08 07:48:08 <KipIngram   > I visit material on it from time to time.
2023-03-08 07:48:13 <Zarutian_iPad> stage magic is about misdirection and illusions
2023-03-08 07:48:23 <KipIngram   > I read a lot of books that have magical characters.
2023-03-08 07:48:42 <KipIngram   > So it leads to curiosity in that area.
2023-03-08 07:49:07 <veltas      > What isn't appreciated enough is that a lot of things that sound mystical in ancient times were real, but without simple explanation of the time
2023-03-08 07:49:11 <Zarutian_iPad> viking magic was more about memetics than actual thaumcraft
2023-03-08 07:49:23 <KipIngram   > Speaking of cultural memory, in that Dresden series I read the author makes a point here and there to emphasize his protagonist's desire to "protect women," particularly.
2023-03-08 07:49:35 <veltas      > Like there was a culture that thought that humans were evolved out of monkeys by magic....
2023-03-08 07:49:36 <KipIngram   > and it just really agitate the "new thinkers" in the reddit.
2023-03-08 07:49:52 <veltas      > The magic here is apparently random mutation and millions of years
2023-03-08 07:49:56 <KipIngram   > I try to explain to them that a few decades ago if you were a man and did NOT express that attitude, you weren't a respected man.
2023-03-08 07:50:21 <KipIngram   > "new thinkers" = "woke"
2023-03-08 07:51:02 <Zarutian_iPad> a lot of the murican ‘pagan witches’ do not realize that the runes of magic are more like fidicuals than having actual thaumic effect
2023-03-08 07:51:05 <KipIngram   > But that topic pops up on the reddit fairly frequently; some new reader has discovered it and has to vent.
2023-03-08 07:51:43 <KipIngram   > Yeah - if you really read into the area it's pretty clear that it's all about one's "will" and focusing it properly.
2023-03-08 07:51:55 <Zarutian_iPad> a bit ‘cargo cultish’ basically (‘pagan witches’)
2023-03-08 07:51:57 <KipIngram   > The objects are just props, that perhaps help you do that focusing.
2023-03-08 07:52:15 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  that cargo cult thing is hilarious.
2023-03-08 07:52:23 <KipIngram   > and a little sad, too.
2023-03-08 07:53:04 <veltas      > The one thing I don't get is satanism. Like if you believe in good and evil why would you side with evil?
2023-03-08 07:53:13 <veltas      > Does not the very nature of things suggest you will be betrayed
2023-03-08 07:53:21 <Zarutian_iPad> a spell is a bit like software except it is more like a confluences of ?deeper/primal/hidden? flows/forceflows
2023-03-08 07:53:37 <KipIngram   > Those folks don't think Satan is evil.  The regard him as having been a "liberator" of human will.
2023-03-08 07:53:45 <veltas      > Witches make a bit more sense because presumably they don't believe in abrahamic religion
2023-03-08 07:54:04 <KipIngram   > Not to say there aren't any bad satanists.
2023-03-08 07:54:14 <veltas      > KipIngram: There were people that thought Judas was the secret heroic figure of the gospel too, and wrote gospels where his sin was what enabled Jesus's passion and Jesus forgave him etc
2023-03-08 07:54:17 <KipIngram   > But some of them at least just interpret the roles in a very different way.
2023-03-08 07:54:24 <veltas      > It seems very contrarian to me
2023-03-08 07:54:26 <KipIngram   > I.e., not the way it's presented in standard religion.
2023-03-08 07:54:45 <KipIngram   > Kind of like Prometheus giving men fire, which the other gods didn't want him to do.
2023-03-08 07:54:57 <veltas      > That's an interesting point
2023-03-08 07:55:31 <KipIngram   > But there definitely are some who are throughly into the "dark Satan," and yeah, I don't understand that either.
2023-03-08 07:55:33 <veltas      > Yes the 'gift' of existential dread lol
2023-03-08 07:55:41 <Zarutian_iPad> or Loki being mischevious teaching crafts to Miðgarðsmenn
2023-03-08 07:55:44 <KipIngram   > Maybe those are just "angry, hateful people."
2023-03-08 07:55:48 <KipIngram   > So the shoe fits.
2023-03-08 07:55:50 <veltas      > Sad
2023-03-08 07:55:55 <KipIngram   > very
2023-03-08 07:56:32 <KipIngram   > But I do believe that if one goes and looks for things to be angry and depressed about, one can find those things.
2023-03-08 07:56:38 <KipIngram   > or, you can look for the other.
2023-03-08 07:56:41 <KipIngram   > And find that.
2023-03-08 07:56:49 <Zarutian_iPad> talking about hate, I been mulling philosophically on how it comes to be.
2023-03-08 07:57:03 <KipIngram   > I think envy is involved at some stage.
2023-03-08 07:57:24 <KipIngram   > But also all to often people aren't very nice, and that motivates others in that direction.
2023-03-08 07:57:46 <KipIngram   > like take your kid that shoots up his school.  Often the other students have given him good reason to hate them.
2023-03-08 07:57:53 <KipIngram   > Kids that age can be MEAN.
2023-03-08 07:57:59 <Zarutian_iPad> one quote I keep dear is: hate is like taking posion and hope that the hated one dies.
2023-03-08 07:58:08 <KipIngram   > Exactly.
2023-03-08 07:58:32 <KipIngram   > Another theme in thOSE Dresden books is that black magic hurts not only the victim but also "darkens the heart" of the wielder.
2023-03-08 07:58:39 <KipIngram   > I think hate is like that.
2023-03-08 07:58:47 <KipIngram   > Do it enough and you forget how to do anything else.
2023-03-08 07:59:31 <Zarutian_iPad> right. One case I heard of was a guy that hated his school and so called peers. But instead of shooting it up, he went and destroyed the academic records on everyone.
2023-03-08 07:59:48 <KipIngram   > lmao.
2023-03-08 07:59:54 <KipIngram   > Well, that's... "better."
2023-03-08 08:00:48 <KipIngram   > I saw a commercial once that showed a couple of kids hacking a company's computers.  The girl says "i wonder if so-and-so knows that so-and-so makes twice what he does?"
2023-03-08 08:00:54 <Zarutian_iPad> meant that the whole school had to retake exams that mysteriously has been mandated to be harder.
2023-03-08 08:00:56 <KipIngram   > The guy taps a few keys and says "He does not."
2023-03-08 08:00:58 <KipIngram   > now
2023-03-08 08:01:25 <KipIngram   > You know, that's a bad deed, but at least I can snicker about it.
2023-03-08 08:01:48 <KipIngram   > The punishment seems more fitting to the crime, at least.
2023-03-08 08:03:23 <Zarutian_iPad> in the case of that school, because of the ‘poor’ performance in those reaxams its acreditation level was lowered so much that too few new students signed up.
2023-03-08 08:06:31 <Zarutian_iPad> it got so bad that the school went into decline and then closed.
2023-03-08 08:06:43 <KipIngram   > Wow.
2023-03-08 08:06:50 <KipIngram   > Well, that kid got his job done, didn't he?
2023-03-08 08:07:37 <Zarutian_iPad> yebb
2023-03-08 08:11:35 <Zarutian_iPad> re that compensation comment: Knew of a place where talking about  compensation in the companys cafeteria was forbidden. Quite a few people supported that rule so they could eat their launch in piece.
2023-03-08 08:12:00 <KipIngram   > Anyway, I think that envy factors into the development of hate, but I don't think it's the "only or biggest" cause - you always wind up with someone who will recognize minor things like that and deliberately try to use them to form a power base.  That can amplify them up.  And then I think there's the social equivalent of bullying, which picks up things like racism and so on.  And then it can get "trenched
2023-03-08 08:12:02 <KipIngram   > in" by that "cultural memory" thing.
2023-03-08 08:12:25 <KipIngram   > You know, guys like Hitler.
2023-03-08 08:13:03 <KipIngram   > Maybe sometimes those guys THINK they're doing something noble and heroic, but I think sometimes too it's just a deliberate exploitation.
2023-03-08 09:11:17 <veltas      > I think there was a delusion of heroism, with very strong egos and not a lot of self reflection
2023-03-08 09:14:54 <KipIngram   > https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/power/whitepaper/21260833/electronic-design-lithiumfree-battery-aims-to-serve-as-backup-for-gridscale-renewable-energy?o_eid=2379F0905723A3W&rdx.ident[pull]=omeda|2379F0905723A3W&oly_enc_id=2379F0905723A3W
2023-03-08 09:15:05 <KipIngram   > Sounds about right.
2023-03-08 09:15:41 <KipIngram   > And the "beating down" laid on Germany at the end of the first world way made them "ripe" for something like that.  They had plenty of reason to feel aggrieved.
2023-03-08 09:15:53 <veltas      > I think the big barrier to ego attack and self reflection was the nature of totalitarianism, where critics of the cult are killed or just thrown in prison
2023-03-08 09:16:31 <KipIngram   > Sure.
2023-03-08 09:17:26 <KipIngram   > That's why I just don't get the folks that push for communist type systems.  Just look at history - they always lead to that type of thing.  Anytime you concentrate that much unchecked power in a small group of hands, that's where you're going to wind up.
2023-03-08 09:17:51 <veltas      > I mean Nazi Germany and other totalitarian states were run like a mafia would run a country. Violence, terror, or just imprisonment/humiliation kept people in line with the current cult of personality
2023-03-08 09:17:51 <KipIngram   > It's just too easy a way to solve your immediate problems, and it becomes a slippery slope.
2023-03-08 09:18:01 <KipIngram   > And first thing you know you're talking about millions of people.
2023-03-08 09:18:14 <KipIngram   > Yeah.
2023-03-08 09:18:28 <veltas      > And there's too much of that attitude around today
2023-03-08 09:18:35 <KipIngram   > Oh yes.
2023-03-08 09:19:22 <KipIngram   > We point at the behavior of radical Islam and moan about it, but I feel pretty sure that if you really "gave over" control here in the States to the religious right, they'd become more or less as bad.
2023-03-08 09:19:41 <veltas      > It's quite possible
2023-03-08 09:19:57 <KipIngram   > They "more or less behave" because they feel the current environment constrains them.
2023-03-08 09:20:49 <KipIngram   > But, for example, those that argue for teaching "creation science" in our schools don't want "equality of treatment."  What they really want is total control of the curriculum, with "that nasty old evolution" OUT.
2023-03-08 09:21:16 <veltas      > But I will say I think this is more about violence and lack of civility than it is about democracy, equality, etc.
2023-03-08 09:21:21 <KipIngram   > And they really, really believe they're right, which makes them the most dangerous kind of person.
2023-03-08 09:21:27 <veltas      > I mean go look at Nazi Germany, that was created by democracy
2023-03-08 09:21:34 <KipIngram   > I know.
2023-03-08 09:22:03 <KipIngram   > People treat other people abysmally.
2023-03-08 09:22:23 <veltas      > Democracy is just a stamp people use to try and look legitimate, but hardly anyone really offers full democracy anyway. You are on a scale from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea to Switzerland.
2023-03-08 09:22:34 <Zarutian_iPad> democrazy is such a bad system, only many or most of the alternatives are worse
2023-03-08 09:22:35 <veltas      > And I don't think it's an ideal anyway
2023-03-08 09:23:05 <KipIngram   > Democracy?  Yeah, I agree.  Just having a majority "have its way" with a minority isn't the correct answer.
2023-03-08 09:23:19 <veltas      > Civility is more important
2023-03-08 09:23:33 <KipIngram   > The basic IDEA behind what we do here - that is, *constitutional* democracy - is pretty good, but our implementation is far from perfect.
2023-03-08 09:23:52 <KipIngram   > The idea that even a minority of one has certain rights that cannot be abridged - that's a good idea.
2023-03-08 09:24:42 <KipIngram   > But too many people want to invoke the Constitution when it suits them, and look the other way and hum when it doesn't.
2023-03-08 09:24:53 <Zarutian_iPad> one thing I read about institutional and infrastructure wise in Persia of old that many of them were not provided by government but by waqfs.
2023-03-08 09:25:02 <KipIngram   > If you're not going to adhere to it, it's worthless.
2023-03-08 09:26:08 <veltas      > The idea needs to be about civility first, then you can work democratic ideas in if it makes you feel better (but it will make no difference, only get in the way)
2023-03-08 09:26:21 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-03-08 09:26:35 <veltas      > People like the democracy part as a mark of legitimacy but most 'respectable' democratic systems have almost zero democracy anyway
2023-03-08 09:26:39 <KipIngram   > The good old golden rule got a lot right.
2023-03-08 09:27:11 <Zarutian_iPad> a waqf is kind of a fund that has bylaws on what it does. Often providing cheap service for stuff that governments would otherwise have to provide, hence they were not taxed.
2023-03-08 09:27:41 <KipIngram   > That's an interesting idea.
2023-03-08 09:27:54 <KipIngram   > Somewhat like a non-profit organization?
2023-03-08 09:27:54 <Zarutian_iPad> heard or read about the stories of Sinbad the seafarer?
2023-03-08 09:28:10 <veltas      > That's similar to how monarchies worked
2023-03-08 09:28:15 <KipIngram   > I've definitely heard of him; haven't really consumed the actual stories, except as filtered through pop culture.
2023-03-08 09:28:16 <Zarutian_iPad> non-profits came much later
2023-03-08 09:28:23 <veltas      > It sounds like a monopoly really
2023-03-08 09:29:41 <veltas      > Like look at Twitter, I can't help but feel it would have worked out better if Musk was more civil
2023-03-08 09:30:02 <Zarutian_iPad> so why was this young man saling between foreign ports and where did he get the starting capital? that is the other form of firms that existed, the enterprises. But those were always time limited and scope limited.
2023-03-08 09:30:15 <veltas      > I'm sure he had some good ideas but he went in there rolling heads, and ultimately the value of staying became too low for most employees
2023-03-08 09:31:04 <Zarutian_iPad> twitter has been a smouldering pile of garbage way before Elon bought it
2023-03-08 09:32:17 <veltas      > Twitter has a very valuable niche in the market, especially among influence/power
2023-03-08 09:32:33 <veltas      > The platform itself is crap but it's more than just a platform
2023-03-08 09:32:34 <Zarutian_iPad> you know that I am Icelandic? so what the moderators/censors sorry the “trust and safety” team did regarding non-english tweets was to use google translate on them and take actions based on the output
2023-03-08 09:33:32 <veltas      > I didn't know you're Icelandic but that's cool
2023-03-08 09:33:39 <veltas      > I went to Iceland once, really amazing place
2023-03-08 09:34:00 <veltas      > Do you work on EVE Online? :P
2023-03-08 09:34:06 <Zarutian_iPad> and google translate is terrible at trying to translate icelandic because the co-corpi of icelandic and english content is too small for statistical feature learning
2023-03-08 09:34:37 <veltas      > Yeah they should have fired a single icelandic person who could explain the nuance
2023-03-08 09:34:43 <veltas      > s/fired/hired
2023-03-08 09:34:49 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: no, but I know people that have and I have discussed the inner workings of that game system
2023-03-08 09:35:19 <veltas      > Iceland is an awesome place with awesome people
2023-03-08 09:35:45 <thrig       > the geology is rather divided
2023-03-08 09:35:47 <KipIngram   > There are almost always *some* awesome people around, if you're fortunate enough to bump into them.
2023-03-08 09:36:17 <veltas      > One gets jealous of their geothermal energy but the Icelandic people deserve it if anyone
2023-03-08 09:36:21 <KipIngram   > I enjoyed the history reading I did on Iceland and Greenland some years ago.
2023-03-08 09:36:23 <Zarutian_iPad> thrig: yes. And I have seen many volcanic eruptions myself.
2023-03-08 09:36:27 <KipIngram   > From way back in the early days.
2023-03-08 09:36:34 <KipIngram   > Don't give me a quiz, though - it's been a while.
2023-03-08 09:37:01 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: being able to take proper showers is nice. Plus all the swimming pools!
2023-03-08 09:37:37 <KipIngram   > Do you think it's possible that people from that region could have been some of the "Sea People" that mounted attacks in the Mediterranean back a millenia or so BC?
2023-03-08 09:37:45 <veltas      > No
2023-03-08 09:37:56 <KipIngram   > Ok.
2023-03-08 09:38:07 <KipIngram   > It was just an idea I had once, based on looking at how climate had changed.
2023-03-08 09:38:24 <KipIngram   > Wondered if maybe some folks had been "driven south" by cold.
2023-03-08 09:38:49 <KipIngram   > But that is kind of a long way.
2023-03-08 09:38:50 <Zarutian_iPad> re twitter: one issue it has and still has is that it is like a huge open space barcafe with various communities that get disrupted by rowdy persons.
2023-03-08 09:39:14 <KipIngram   > People lose their politeness when they're not "in the presence" of the people they're attacking.
2023-03-08 09:39:49 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: re sea people: well there are mentions in the sagas of vikings going that far for trade and plunder
2023-03-08 09:41:03 <KipIngram   > Sounds like back around 1300 BC the whole extant civilization in the Mediterranean Sea region just fell to pieces.
2023-03-08 09:41:05 <Zarutian_iPad> other thing that twitter amplified in spades that was not much happening in smaller fora is clout chasing.
2023-03-08 09:41:19 <KipIngram   > They had a good bit going on, and then it just all came unglued.
2023-03-08 09:43:32 <Zarutian_iPad> re clout chasing: this has resulted in rather egragious examples of grifting
2023-03-08 09:48:00 <Zarutian_iPad> re the newest episode in the Twitter trumpsterfire: for the life of me I do not understand why Twitter bought Ueno, Haralds Þorleifssonar company way back.
2023-03-08 09:48:48 <thrig       > your honor, I did nazi that coming
2023-03-08 09:50:16 <Zarutian_iPad> sure Haraldur is world renowed website designer and middling programmer (one on end of the scale we have a complete newbie and the other end we have the Quake II master)
2023-03-08 09:51:06 <Zarutian_iPad> but why not just run your company and get commisions on projects
2023-03-08 09:52:16 <Zarutian_iPad> I know of a consultant that will never let his company be aquired because he wants to be able to fire bad customers
2023-03-08 09:52:19 <KipIngram   > Often "world renowned" seems to have little to do with raw horsepower.
2023-03-08 09:52:30 <KipIngram   > In a lot of cases things just wind up being a popularity contest.
2023-03-08 09:53:14 <KipIngram   > I've found watching the overall process of who becomes managers in my work environment quite interesting - it clearly has more to do with personality than ability.
2023-03-08 09:53:37 <Zarutian_iPad> I think I go look Halli up and annoy him with the piclist website, just because
2023-03-08 09:53:59 <KipIngram   > And I've seen that over a long enough period of time and with enough cases to declare it a "pattern."
2023-03-08 09:54:07 <Zarutian_iPad> what sort of personality traits seem to be selected for?
2023-03-08 09:54:17 <KipIngram   > "Friendliness."
2023-03-08 09:54:33 <KipIngram   > The folks people tend to like get made managers - the "nice guys."
2023-03-08 09:54:46 <KipIngram   > And I think that's a perfectly fine trait to have in a manager.
2023-03-08 09:54:59 <Zarutian_iPad> ah, uppsleikjur in the extreeme cases
2023-03-08 09:54:59 <KipIngram   > But "technical excellence" really just seems to not factor in.
2023-03-08 09:56:25 <Zarutian_iPad> I had a manager that was rather technically incompetent but knew it
2023-03-08 09:57:02 <KipIngram   > It doesn't have to be a show stopper, and definitely "knowing it" would be a plus.
2023-03-08 09:57:11 <Zarutian_iPad> usually dragged one of the graybeards along if there was something being decided that needed technical expertise
2023-03-08 09:57:25 <KipIngram   > Our guy who's the main agile zealot is like that - I don't t hink he has ANY technical understanding of the products.
2023-03-08 09:57:45 <KipIngram   > I mean, maybe he's picked up some buzz words and can use them in a semi-sensible way.
2023-03-08 09:57:58 <KipIngram   > But we sure can't look to him for any kind of technical guidance.
2023-03-08 09:58:39 <Zarutian_iPad> oh, many fall into the trap of equating a manager to a leader
2023-03-08 09:58:52 <KipIngram   > There's one case in particular that stands out; there's a guy who worked for me when I was first at the place, before it got bought (I was the software engineering manager).  Now he's not just a manager but is a SECOND LINE manager.
2023-03-08 09:59:04 <KipIngram   > Super nice guy, but fairly "soft" on the capability side.
2023-03-08 09:59:18 <KipIngram   > But at least he's not completely unfamiliar like the other guy is.
2023-03-08 09:59:54 <Zarutian_iPad> but here is a problem of promoting “friendlies”, you might end up with yesmen
2023-03-08 10:00:04 <KipIngram   > I got called into a meeting soon after the acquisition, to talk with a few big shots - it was one of many such meetings with the "acquired people."
2023-03-08 10:00:23 <KipIngram   > At that point in time i think the plan would have been for me to be put on a management path, since that's where I was going in.
2023-03-08 10:00:56 <KipIngram   > But I commented during the meeting that I thought people should definitely expect to have their ideas listened to, but when a decision got made, we were all grown ups and should do what we're told.
2023-03-08 10:01:04 <KipIngram   > BAM - that was the end of me going into management.
2023-03-08 10:01:13 <KipIngram   > Which I was bummed about at the time, but later became glad of.
2023-03-08 10:01:25 <KipIngram   > The management "environment" looks like pure misery to me.
2023-03-08 10:01:57 <KipIngram   > They don't seem to want any kind of "hardball" attributes in their managers.
2023-03-08 10:02:29 <KipIngram   > It's all about collaboration and "interlocking" and so on.
2023-03-08 10:03:16 <KipIngram   > They want a state of "happy cooperative contentment."
2023-03-08 10:03:51 <KipIngram   > Which sounds wonderful, of course, but it's just not how I "learned to manage" in the original place I did it.
2023-03-08 10:04:03 <Zarutian_iPad> you told me but I forgot. What kind of stuff does this company do?
2023-03-08 10:05:56 <KipIngram   > The current one?  It's an office OF IBM; we do the hardware and firmware design of NAND-flash based solid state drives.
2023-03-08 10:06:16 <Zarutian_iPad> right
2023-03-08 10:09:04 <KipIngram   > Which, when I hired on, struck me as "enough like" what I'd done at that original company (we made programming equipment for semiconductor devices, so the same sort of "embedded work") that my competence should port.
2023-03-08 10:09:13 <KipIngram   > Different details - same general kind of device.
2023-03-08 10:16:08 <veltas      > You've heard of "Not Made Here Syndrome", what about "Made Here Syndrome"?
2023-03-08 10:16:17 <veltas      > "We can't possibly use that tool, we made it"
2023-03-08 10:16:26 <veltas      > "I don't want to use that library, it's ours"
2023-03-08 10:16:31 <thrig       > anti dogfooding?
2023-03-08 14:35:26 <KipIngram   > Eat your own dog food.
2023-03-08 16:08:34 <KipIngram   > Wow - pretty busy day today.
2023-03-08 16:09:27 <thrig       > well the cabbage wasn't going to jar itself
2023-03-08 16:09:28 <KipIngram   > Got the agile zealot asking to have a performance check on a new version they're pushing out (for the older drive), and on top of that I hit a bug the last day or two on the newer drive and keep getting requests to run this or that traffic for them to inspect around.
2023-03-08 16:09:37 <KipIngram   > Nope - guess not.
2023-03-08 16:10:26 <KipIngram   > I'm not complaining; a) it's good to be needed and b) a lot of the time this is a fairly relaxed job.  So I can just damn well buck up and get it done when the occasional busy time comes around.
2023-03-08 21:34:39 <KipIngram   > This is a really good video.  It's on self-studying ancient languages:
2023-03-08 21:34:42 <KipIngram   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2JaaolRcHw
2023-03-08 21:35:31 <KipIngram   > I've long wanted to be able to read old historical documents in original form, but have just never made much progress.  This has ideas in that give me some renewed hope.
2023-03-08 21:35:49 <thrig       > ... and lots of elbow grease
2023-03-08 21:37:22 <KipIngram   > No doubt.
2023-03-08 21:38:04 <KipIngram   > The guest (the guy on the right) pointed out that if he writes something in Latin, and for whatever miraculous reason someone happens to read it a thousand years from now, they'll read it and understand it exactly the way he intended.
2023-03-08 21:38:31 <KipIngram   > Whereas if you write it English, or German, or French or any other "living language," that language will have evolved, and there's no telling how your words will "play" to that reader.
2023-03-08 21:38:46 <KipIngram   > I.e., they're taking the  position that Latin being a dead language is a feature - not a bug.
2023-03-08 21:38:56 <thrig       > mostly nobody in "Lonesome Dove" could read the latin on the sign
2023-03-08 21:39:14 <KipIngram   > That guy a thousand years from now will have learned exactly the same Latin you did.
2023-03-08 21:39:27 <KipIngram   > Man, there's a blast from the past.
2023-03-08 21:39:40 <KipIngram   > The only thing I remember about that mini-series is them hanging  Robert Urich.
2023-03-08 21:41:49 <KipIngram   > The whole history of how language has evolved is fascinating.
2023-03-08 21:42:32 <KipIngram   > I read a good book on that a few months ago, called "The Unfolding of Language."  Went through all the history of the languages, the history of linguistics, etc., and was loaded with pretty funny stories too.
2023-03-08 21:43:17 <thrig       > Women, Fire, Dangerous Things
2023-03-08 22:04:54 <KipIngram   > Heh.
2023-03-08 22:05:04 <KipIngram   > Women ARE dangerous.