2023-03-31 00:34:55 <decay       > the real question is how many particles are in a bit.
2023-03-31 00:39:00 <KipIngram   > :-)  There are some interesting papers floating around on information theory treatment of quantum theory.
2023-03-31 00:39:13 <KipIngram   > Also on the ramifications quantum theory has on our basic logic system.
2023-03-31 00:39:49 <KipIngram   > Most of our historical thinking in the west is built on Aristotelian logic.  It has like four or five axioms.
2023-03-31 00:40:45 <KipIngram   > All of them except one are pretty solid, just like in Euclidean geometry.  There's one that's pesky.  In geometry it's the axiom that through any point there's exactly one straight line that's parallel to some other line.
2023-03-31 00:40:57 <KipIngram   > In plane geometry that's true, but there are geometries it's not true in.
2023-03-31 00:41:11 <KipIngram   > In logic the troublesome axiom is the axiom of the excluded middle.
2023-03-31 00:41:23 <KipIngram   > I.e., that a statement is either true or not true - one or the other.
2023-03-31 00:41:38 <KipIngram   > And it links up to quantum theory around quantities unmeasured.
2023-03-31 00:41:48 <KipIngram   > That whole thing about the quantities not existing until you measure them.
2023-03-31 00:42:00 <KipIngram   > So a statement of truth about such a quantity is neither true nor false prior to the measurement.
2023-03-31 00:42:34 <KipIngram   > You don't get to exclude the middle.
2023-03-31 00:43:00 <KipIngram   > And a whole bunch of theorems that are "useful" in logic use that axiom in their proof.
2023-03-31 00:43:15 <KipIngram   > So if it doesn't hold, it rattles things up pretty good.
2023-03-31 00:43:49 <KipIngram   > In the info theory approach to it this is where your qubits can be in superposition states - such states don't exist in classical logic.
2023-03-31 09:15:19 <patricia_   > : hello . «  hello «  ;
2023-03-31 09:18:44 <unjust      > hello ." patricia_"
2023-03-31 09:18:53 <patricia_   > :)
2023-03-31 09:19:24 <patricia_   > is there a irc wich compile words ?
2023-03-31 09:19:44 <unjust      > why not write your own?
2023-03-31 09:20:27 <patricia_   > why not …
2023-03-31 09:23:23 <KipIngram   > The idea's been kicked around here.
2023-03-31 09:29:56 <veltas      > I started doing one and got bored when I started thinking about state and security
2023-03-31 09:30:24 <Zarutian_iPad> “national (state) security!”
2023-03-31 09:30:29 <veltas      > I think if someone does one where we all get different block ranges and can execute each others' blocks that would be kind of fun
2023-03-31 09:30:34 <veltas      > An interesting social experiment
2023-03-31 09:31:21 <veltas      > Part of the problem is I barely get any time to do anything these days :(
2023-03-31 14:10:19 <KipIngram   > Hey, got my RX-8 back form the body shop; I had a badly needed paint job done.  It's GORGEOUS.  :-)
2023-03-31 14:10:49 <thrig       > an RX isn't very useful without a TX?
2023-03-31 14:39:43 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-03-31 14:40:58 <KipIngram   > That's actually a fun little car - that little rotary can really pump out some power.  It's not like it outruns everything out there or anything, but it has a nice snappy level of "get up and go."  At least with a manual transmission; I've never drive one with automatic, but I generally regard manuals as more responsive.
2023-03-31 14:41:18 <KipIngram   > I think most automatic transmissions are tuned for fuel economy, and that's just a different shifting pattern than performance.
2023-03-31 14:41:24 <KipIngram   > With a manual you can get anything you want.
2023-03-31 14:41:46 <KipIngram   > And it just adds something else to engage with in the driving experience.
2023-03-31 16:27:40 <veltas      > I drive manual and often switch styles between performant and economical
2023-03-31 16:42:54 <KipIngram   > Around the neighborhood and nearby area I drive for crisp acceleration; the majority of my work commute, though, is on an expressway, so opportunities for that are limited - that winds up making "most" of my total miles "economy based."
2023-03-31 16:43:02 <KipIngram   > Just get at highway speed and roll.
2023-03-31 17:22:14 <unjust      > anyone done (or doing) https://tinyurl.com/LiftChallenge ?
2023-03-31 17:29:31 <thrig       > nobody doing it would be unjust
2023-03-31 19:14:04 <KipIngram   > Well, just did a bit 2300-package update on my OS, and re-booted.  I always heave a sigh of relief when it actually comes back up after one of those.
2023-03-31 19:14:27 <KipIngram   > Now I'm caught up, but still on Fedora 36, and 37 is available.  So I have to decide about that.  I didn't find the new features list terribly impressive.
2023-03-31 19:47:17 <KipIngram   > Did a little research and quite a few poeple seem to be planning to wait until May or so before jumping to 37, to give it some time to stabilize and bug fix.
2023-03-31 19:47:23 <KipIngram   > I think that works for me.
2023-03-31 20:16:48 <Zarutian_iPad> unjust: interesting challange but where are the rest of the inputs and outputs?
2023-03-31 20:17:57 <Zarutian_iPad> like motor speed up or down (both input and output)
2023-03-31 20:18:13 <thrig       > many Bothans died to bring you this tested elevator code
2023-03-31 20:18:18 <Zarutian_iPad> upper and lower endstops
2023-03-31 20:19:30 <Zarutian_iPad> elevation encoder and floor level detection switches?
2023-03-31 20:20:51 <thrig       > hero bypass for detention block level 5 AA-23
2023-03-31 20:21:27 <Zarutian_iPad> thrig: the trash/refuse compactor?
2023-03-31 20:21:57 <thrig       > a lift was also involved. probably it was not a working lift, unlike the one in Fifth Element
2023-03-31 20:25:46 <Zarutian_iPad> oh, this is just a elevator trafic router sim, not full elevator car control
2023-03-31 20:28:16 <unjust      > Zarutian_iPad: i don't know, this link appeared in a tweet from Forth 2020 and i find any more than what's on that page. i asked here thinking someone was likely to have been stuck into it already.
2023-03-31 20:28:47 <unjust      > i meant to say: i couldn't find any more than what's on that page
2023-03-31 20:31:59 <Zarutian_iPad> so, the usual office building lift operating procedure is three phasic: idle (no calls pending and no one riding), going up and handling up calls and ride until topmost call or destination, and then going down and handling down calls until bottom most call or destination
2023-03-31 20:33:04 <Zarutian_iPad> the lift idles at last destination, and the two last phases can happen other way around
2023-03-31 20:35:43 <Zarutian_iPad> call buttons are ‘sticky’, that is a once called there is no way to cancel and the lift car will stop at that floor depending on which way it is going
2023-03-31 20:37:13 <Zarutian_iPad> the destination buttons in the car though are toggleable but the call buttons do override that
2023-03-31 20:38:08 <unjust      > don't destination buttons also tend to latch, how many lifts allow you to cancel a destination once selected?
2023-03-31 20:38:22 <Zarutian_iPad> (the indicator light in each indicate that the lift will stop there but only if the car is going in the called direction)
2023-03-31 20:39:07 <Zarutian_iPad> unjust: quite a few. Often you need to press and hold a bit to cancel
2023-03-31 20:39:23 <unjust      > Zarutian_iPad: interesting, i will try this next time
2023-03-31 20:40:48 <Zarutian_iPad> bonus feature: implement a go-directly override wher both thedoor close and destination floor are pressed and hekd for a bit
2023-03-31 20:41:07 <unjust      > this challenge made me wonder about some approximation of ladder-logic symbols defined as forth words, even though it would probably be more verbose than a well-thought out lift vocabulary
2023-03-31 20:44:05 <unjust      > i think i have seen some kind of DSL in this regard, but i can't find a reference to it now
2023-03-31 20:45:26 <Zarutian_iPad> doing lift control in ladderlogic is annoying and mainly only worked for simplified lifts where each floor only had one call button
2023-03-31 20:47:56 <Zarutian_iPad> you can do it for the case each floor has two, one for up and one for down
2023-03-31 20:48:43 <Zarutian_iPad> but the you need two state relays
2023-03-31 20:49:20 <Zarutian_iPad> on for keeping track of the going up phase and one for the going down ohase
2023-03-31 20:49:28 <Zarutian_iPad> phase*
2023-03-31 20:49:58 <Zarutian_iPad> you can omitt one and have the lift idle only on the ground floor
2023-03-31 20:50:13 <thrig       > problematic in floods
2023-03-31 20:51:00 <Zarutian_iPad> yeah lift routing turn to be more complex than most people think it is
2023-03-31 20:51:45 <unjust      > if it idles only on the groundfloor, what will it do if no destination is set once the doors close above ground? return to ground?
2023-03-31 20:52:07 <Zarutian_iPad> yebb
2023-03-31 20:52:33 <thrig       > bad things(TM) have happened because of elevator defaults for a fire or flood condition
2023-03-31 20:54:01 <Zarutian_iPad> hence lift cars idle at last destination or call (if no other call or destination is pending)
2023-03-31 20:56:34 <Zarutian_iPad> lot of this info I got from deviant ollam and his talksbut also mechatronics control system class
2023-03-31 21:02:05 <Zarutian_iPad> and do not get me started on lift door timer behaviour
2023-03-31 21:02:44 <Zarutian_iPad> actually I will talk about it anyway
2023-03-31 21:03:56 <unjust      > bonus points for door sensor logic
2023-03-31 21:04:22 <thrig       > sometimes the door handlers would forget to operate the door for the star trek actors
2023-03-31 21:05:12 <Zarutian_iPad> the close door button in the car MUST start the door closing behaviour regardless of how much time is left on the automatic door close timer
2023-03-31 21:06:29 <Zarutian_iPad> how ever there is a minimum time on that timer that the car will wait at the floor before it closes and goes to handle other calls or destinations
2023-03-31 21:07:09 <thrig       > tricky if someone with a slow walker is inching their way in
2023-03-31 21:07:44 <Zarutian_iPad> some lifts have no maximum open time on such timers and idle open until called elsewere
2023-03-31 21:08:13 <Zarutian_iPad> thrigh: hence the minimum time
2023-03-31 21:09:27 <Zarutian_iPad> and I do believe that slow walkers block the door beam that these lifts have to see if something is going through the doors
2023-03-31 21:10:11 <Zarutian_iPad> the door close button in the car is the only thing that can override that minimum time
2023-03-31 21:11:01 <Zarutian_iPad> so somebody needs to be in the car to press it
2023-03-31 21:13:54 <Zarutian_iPad> so either nobody is in the lift car whilist the slow walker is inching on or somebody is and they can see the incher getting on
2023-03-31 21:15:59 <Zarutian_iPad> not this misunderstanding America Disabilities Act nonsense of minimum time on time where the close door button does nothing
2023-03-31 21:16:38 <thrig       > or humans are assholes so there's an asshole hitting the button as the walker is inching in
2023-03-31 21:18:14 <Zarutian_iPad> apropos opprobium is in order for that not wasting the time of able bodies when no such incher is present
2023-03-31 21:19:05 <Zarutian_iPad> plus the door beam sensor should be detecting the incher in the door way
2023-03-31 21:19:23 <thrig       > maybe. those things may not have solid sides
2023-03-31 21:21:11 <Zarutian_iPad> the beem door sensor is a ‘leaky bucket’ thing and not a timer
2023-03-31 21:21:46 <Zarutian_iPad> a load of ‘liquid’ is dumped in each time the beam is blocked
2023-03-31 21:22:41 <Zarutian_iPad> and the rest of the lift controls look at the door being blocked if there is any ‘liquid’ leftbin that bucket
2023-03-31 21:23:18 <Zarutian_iPad> left in*
2023-03-31 21:25:44 <thrig       > I guess "Normal Accidents" is also a fun read
2023-03-31 21:25:48 <Zarutian_iPad> plus there should be an ‘presence’ beam sensor in the car that ‘looks’ out the door
2023-03-31 21:33:01 <Zarutian_iPad> thrig: this ‘close door button in lift car not working’ thing reminded me also of the irratation of disabled ‘pedistran crossing’ buttons at trafgic light intersections
2023-03-31 21:33:19 <Zarutian_iPad> traffic*
2023-03-31 21:33:43 <thrig       > stroads do take a long time for the elderly to get across
2023-03-31 21:34:46 <Zarutian_iPad> at least put a cross of, preferably red, tape over the button to indicate its disabled if you do not have time or budget to remove it
2023-03-31 21:35:35 <Zarutian_iPad> yeah, stroads is an purly Murican thing (I count Canada in this)
2023-03-31 21:37:02 <Zarutian_iPad> either have a traffic street or a road not this bastardised thing
2023-03-31 21:39:34 <Zarutian_iPad> you can turn a stroad into a road by halfing the amount of entrances/exits onto the road by making it possible to drive slowly between abutting parking lots
2023-03-31 21:42:28 <Zarutian_iPad> and what is this with front lawn fetishism?
2023-03-31 21:43:42 <thrig       > maybe they're trying to Uplift zoysia or bluegrass
2023-03-31 21:44:00 <Zarutian_iPad> ”oh, per city code it must be flat and mowed to like two inches and you can not use it for anything else”
2023-03-31 21:45:07 <Zarutian_iPad> the guy with the blunt green nailbed as astroturf front lawn has the right idea
2023-03-31 21:45:54 <Zarutian_iPad> no mowing or watering!
2023-03-31 21:46:20 <thrig       > sneak a plastic dandelion onto
2023-03-31 21:49:21 <Zarutian_iPad> but the best idea is to put up the white picket fence (60 cm high) that was all the rage in the 1940s and have proper potato, hemp, and veggie beds
2023-03-31 21:51:15 <thrig       > surely a victory garden is not patriotic?
2023-03-31 21:51:18 <Zarutian_iPad> plus tasteful signs on the fence saying that tresspasser will be charged eyewatering high entrance fees
2023-03-31 21:58:24 <Zarutian_iPad> youtube has been recommending the channel urbanist to me. One vid on it I listened to said something that suburbs drain the infrastructure budget coffers of cities. One thing I found wild is that the roadsurfaces in such are only expected to last 25 years.
2023-03-31 21:59:02 <Zarutian_iPad> or the roads themselfs that is
2023-03-31 22:00:29 <Zarutian_iPad> sure I expect that the topmost bitumen layer gets renewed every decade or half but the road itself should at least last 50 if not 100 years
2023-03-31 22:02:08 <Zarutian_iPad> modulo geo stability stuff and heavy truck or cargo traffic
2023-03-31 22:03:27 <thrig       > maybe America should have borrowed German Autobahn engineers instead of the rocket ones
2023-03-31 22:04:22 <Zarutian_iPad> so I do suspect that these suburbs are not being maintained or built properly infrastructure wise due to blatant (indirect) embezzlement
2023-03-31 22:10:37 <Zarutian_iPad> proper ‘anatomy’ of a burb road/street. You have the roadbed with all that structural jaz. The on the side of the road you have the sidewalk which is actually just the top of rectangular covered concrete cut for various water, gas, power, fiberoptic, stormdrain and sewage lines
2023-03-31 22:11:48 <Zarutian_iPad> need to fix something? lift a sidewalk concrete slab away
2023-03-31 22:12:15 <Zarutian_iPad> no need to dig up the roadway
2023-03-31 22:16:23 <Zarutian_iPad> heck, each house or lot can have a minished/largish-box against the sidewalk were the metters and cut-offs are
2023-03-31 22:17:19 <Zarutian_iPad> or even a ‘floor box’ so it does not stand above ground
2023-03-31 22:54:37 <Zarutian_iPad> I here after will refer to equity holding companies as psuedo-horse holdings
2023-03-31 22:55:56 <thrig       > sudo horse sandwich