2023-04-19 09:01:43 <hello-operator> You know the block word set? What should the value of "blk" be when interpreting block 0?
2023-04-19 09:01:57 <hello-operator> It's something that's always annoyed me.
2023-04-19 09:33:47 <thrig       > one heresy would be to number blocks from 1
2023-04-19 09:48:28 <crc         > hello-operator: under ans? I do'
2023-04-19 09:48:35 <crc         > don't think 0 is valid there
2023-04-19 09:48:49 <crc         > "When the input source is a block, BLK shall contain the non-zero block number and the input buffer is the 1024-character buffer containing that block"
2023-04-19 09:49:27 <crc         > "If BLK contains zero, the input source is not a block and can be identified by SOURCE-ID, if SOURCE-ID is available. "
2023-04-19 10:09:41 <KipIngram   > Block 0 is not normally used.  When BLK is set to 0, that generally implies that input is from the console.
2023-04-19 10:09:55 <KipIngram   > So actually disk blocks count starting at 1.
2023-04-19 10:11:05 <KipIngram   > The interpreter loop will check BLK, and if it's non-zero, then it will run BLK @ BLOCK to ensure that the block currently being interpreted is actually resident in a disk buffer.
2023-04-19 10:11:58 <KipIngram   > >IN tells you how much of that block (or how much of the console input buffer) has already been interpreted, and a RAM address pointing to just before the next word is produced, and WORD uses that to parse out the next word.
2023-04-19 10:12:42 <KipIngram   > Execution of that word could possibly eject your block data from the buffer, which is why that process describied above is run every time you need to parse out the next word.
2023-04-19 10:13:15 <KipIngram   > So ideally you'd like for the "block is already resident" path through BLOCK to be very fast, since it's often run unnecessarily.
2023-04-19 10:14:34 <KipIngram   > The whole thing becomes very troublesome if you have multiple threads running, unless each one has its own dedicated disk buffers.  If they're shared you need a locking mechanism of some kind.
2023-04-19 10:30:20 <KipIngram   > Holy cow - the winner of the Boston marathon just run finished in two hours and five minutes.
2023-04-19 10:30:29 <KipIngram   > That's 4.6 minute miles THE WHOLE WAY.
2023-04-19 10:30:33 <KipIngram   > That's astounding.
2023-04-19 10:32:32 <thrig       > Pheidippides was a hack
2023-04-19 10:37:53 <hello-operator> Yeah, that's what I mean, it means you cannot use block 0, which seems odd. I guess you have to offset all blocks when mapping them to files/flash?
2023-04-19 10:38:02 <hello-operator> If you want to be standards compliant
2023-04-19 10:38:27 <KipIngram   > I'm honestly shocked - I guess if I'd been watching it over hte years I'd have seen a downard trend in the results, but I haven't - the last time I looked the times were much higher.
2023-04-19 10:38:51 <KipIngram   > It's not just the one guy - the top  American finished in two hours 9 minutes and was seventh place.
2023-04-19 10:39:22 <hello-operator> I think I just wanted to complain about blk and nothing else :D
2023-04-19 10:39:31 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-04-19 10:39:57 <KipIngram   > No worries - blk isn't popular.  I think it's a good thing, though, because it DOES mirror the fundamental services offered by storage devices.
2023-04-19 10:40:15 <KipIngram   > Forth is supposed to give you "lowest level access" to the hardware, so those primitive operations should be present.
2023-04-19 10:40:34 <KipIngram   > But if you want to complain about Forth not offering a "standard" for file systems, that's a valid complaint.
2023-04-19 10:41:03 <KipIngram   > Usually implementations will just bolt on an interface to whatever file system services the OS they're running under offers.
2023-04-19 10:41:15 <KipIngram   > If they deal at all with file systems.
2023-04-19 10:41:33 <hello-operator> I like it as well, it's especially neat that you can make a useful block editor in one or two blocks.
2023-04-19 10:41:49 <hello-operator> I'd like to make a lightweight file system built upon blocks
2023-04-19 10:41:56 <hello-operator> Which must have been done before
2023-04-19 10:42:02 <KipIngram   > Absolutely.  I had a pretty  nice block editor in the last system I finished; the source did fit in one 4kB disk block.
2023-04-19 10:42:25 <KipIngram   > Which is a nice size - that's 64 lines of 64 chars each.  You can do a bit more with that than you can with 16 lines.
2023-04-19 10:43:01 <hello-operator> 4.6 minutes/miles is impressive, I couldn't manage that when I was physically active and doing only a 1.5 miles :D
2023-04-19 10:43:13 <KipIngram   > That was a "screen" editor too - it would edit two blocks at once, displayed side by side on the screen, and had a variety of vim-like operations it supported.
2023-04-19 10:43:57 <KipIngram   > E.g., I could delete a line from one block (which puts it in a "yank buffer"), hotkey over to the other block, and pop it out of the buffer there, etc.
2023-04-19 10:46:44 <hello-operator> With the number of Forth systems available on microcontrollers the block system is still useful even if it's disreguarded in some circles
2023-04-19 10:46:47 <hello-operator> That's neat
2023-04-19 10:47:33 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I liked it.  It wasn't the "most powerful" editor you could imagine, by any means - there was no kind of search or search/replace, etc., but it was more than good enough to do pleasant coding.
2023-04-19 10:47:46 <KipIngram   > Beat the pants off of a line editor, in any case.
2023-04-19 10:48:03 <hello-operator> I've tried to use ed more for writing short notes
2023-04-19 10:48:35 <hello-operator> I use a block editor derived from the one https://wiki.c2.com/?ForthBlocks, although not for serious work. I just like the idea more than anything
2023-04-19 10:48:50 <KipIngram   > In my new system my word for getting a line of text from the screen supports having an initial value for the string and an initial cursor position in it; the idea is that that should work well for building an editor that shouldn't take as much code - that's a fair bit of editing functionality already.
2023-04-19 10:49:04 <KipIngram   > The "editor" then should only have to handle displaying stuff and moving around vertically.
2023-04-19 10:49:57 <KipIngram   > It would just build an inital data structure, display it, and then just make calls into the right parts of it using this console input word.
2023-04-19 13:13:08 <crc         > hmm, https://wiki.c2.com/?ForthBlocks still has a very old copy of my block editor
2023-04-19 13:24:04 <KipIngram   > :-)  You're legendary.
2023-04-19 13:24:45 <KipIngram   > Well, transmission trouble in the RX-8.  More money for the car shop, I guess.  :-(
2023-04-19 13:25:12 <KipIngram   > I was unable to get it into first gear and made a bunch of people miss a light cycle on the offramp of a tollway - that was fun.
2023-04-19 13:25:48 <KipIngram   > I finally managed to get it into second (it didn't want to do that at first either).  First is gone altogether, so I managed to drive it back home using the remaining gears - it's not too hard to start up from a full stop in second.
2023-04-19 13:26:42 <KipIngram   > I got back onto the tollway, got up to speed (all the higher gears are fine); then when I got off I got back into second and just drove it all the way home without shifting it again.
2023-04-19 13:29:42 <Zarutian_iPad> sounds like crappy design of a transmission
2023-04-19 13:40:15 <KipIngram   > Well, it is a 2006 car and it's never had any transmission work.
2023-04-19 13:40:42 <KipIngram   > Overall I'm pretty impressed with how well it gets me around, for its age.
2023-04-19 13:41:07 <KipIngram   > The tax process turned up a nice refund; now I can give a chunk of it away.  :-)
2023-04-19 13:42:47 <KipIngram   > But it's better than having this happen BEFORE I knew how the taxes were going to go.
2023-04-19 13:46:32 <Zarutian_iPad> you dont know how your taxes go until weeks sending or fill out your return electronically?
2023-04-19 13:47:05 <Zarutian_iPad> you doing something complex or something?
2023-04-19 13:47:24 <KipIngram   > Well, I probably could know sooner, but I usually don't give it a lot of thought until I actually do the TurboTax process online, which I did on Sunday.
2023-04-19 13:47:56 <KipIngram   > I was "fairly sure" it would produce a refund this year, though, because it has the last three years.
2023-04-19 13:48:14 <KipIngram   > And nothing has really changed much.
2023-04-19 13:48:41 <KipIngram   > But you just never know when they'll slip in some change to the tax code that happens to matter to our situation.
2023-04-19 13:49:20 <KipIngram   > The last one was some years ago while Trump was President - before that our property taxes had been totally deductible, but now there's a cap on that.
2023-04-19 13:50:46 <KipIngram   > Which was annoying.
2023-04-19 13:51:02 <Zarutian_iPad> overly fucking complex tax code
2023-04-19 13:51:21 <KipIngram   > Oh, totally, and completely fouled up in so many ways.
2023-04-19 13:51:53 <KipIngram   > Chock full of sneaky ways for people with a lot of money to pay less, some taken from people way below the poverty line that we shouldn't be taking anything from, etc.
2023-04-19 13:52:37 <KipIngram   > But those "sneaky ways" are well hidden - they can't have it be "obvious" that they're there.  But the guys those folks hire know how to find them.
2023-04-19 13:54:12 <Zarutian_iPad> took me a long time to realize that ‘living paycheque to paychque’ had changed meanings over the decades. It used to mean that someone having such a lifestyle/sitation was a spendthrift.
2023-04-19 13:54:24 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-04-19 13:54:34 <KipIngram   > But things have been so arranged that it falls on a lot of us.
2023-04-19 13:54:49 <KipIngram   > My wife and I make seriously good money - and yet we still have to fret over it sometimes.
2023-04-19 13:55:14 <KipIngram   > It's not ALL their fault - we could have mounted a less expensive lifestyle.  But the trend you're alluding to is also there.
2023-04-19 13:55:45 <KipIngram   > And even as it is, it feels like most of what we've spent money on over the years is things connected to the kids - everyone tends to want the best they can afford for their children.
2023-04-19 13:56:13 <KipIngram   > But I've managed to get four of my five daughters through college degrees - just one to go.
2023-04-19 13:56:48 <Zarutian_iPad> what sort?
2023-04-19 13:57:10 <KipIngram   > The ones that have done and are doing graduate school are mostly handling that on their own; we help a little, but not in any serious way.
2023-04-19 13:57:15 <KipIngram   > What sort of what?
2023-04-19 13:57:24 <Zarutian_iPad> degrees
2023-04-19 13:58:19 <KipIngram   > Oh.  One works in biomedical engineering - she's currently running a lab operated by Texas A&M and a big hospital here in Houston, and is finishing her PhD.  Just the dissertation to go.
2023-04-19 13:58:48 <KipIngram   > The other is chasing some sort of a graduate degree related to environmental studies; I'm not totally on top of those details.
2023-04-19 13:59:23 <KipIngram   > But she's the one that had some significant emotional problems as a teenager, so frankly all I want is to see her happy.  And she seems to be very much so right now.
2023-04-19 13:59:58 <KipIngram   > The other two that have finished college have both mentioned graduate school, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
2023-04-19 14:00:27 <KipIngram   > But three of them have long term jobs (i.e., they're fully in flight), so I feel pretty good about progress so far.
2023-04-19 14:00:33 <KipIngram   > Got a meeting; back shortly.
2023-04-19 14:04:19 <KipIngram   > The oldest one is one of the ones that have mentioned graduate school, but I don't know if she'll ever follow through.  She's always seemed sort of like the most "happy go lucky" one, and now she's got a kid - my first grandson.  And that can definitely change the viability of such things as graduate school.
2023-04-19 14:11:25 <KipIngram   > She works for some sort of "quasi-government" operation that's related to disaster relief operations.  I've somewhat lost track of whether it's actually a state agency or a private group that works WITH the state.
2023-04-19 14:11:55 <KipIngram   > Something quite bureaucratic, at any rate.
2023-04-19 14:13:00 <KipIngram   > But they live in Austin, which is the state capitol, and sometimes I think more Austin folks work somehow connected to the state government than don't.
2023-04-19 14:13:10 <KipIngram   > Either that or for the big university there in town.
2023-04-19 14:13:50 <KipIngram   > That's UT Austin; that's where I got my degrees.
2023-04-19 14:14:34 <KipIngram   > I lived there for 15 years; it's a pretty fun place to be.
2023-04-19 14:14:38 <KipIngram   > Lots of night life.
2023-04-19 14:14:52 <KipIngram   > A really solid live music scene.
2023-04-19 14:15:39 <KipIngram   > I've noticed it seems to be one of the cities that's mentioned more than one would expect in TV shows and novels and stuff.
2023-04-19 14:16:44 <KipIngram   > Given that it's not actually a BIG city; not anything like Houston or Chicago or LA, etc.
2023-04-19 17:50:56 <veltas      > Have been working on trying to fit my block editor into blocks and improve the code a bit
2023-04-19 17:51:05 <veltas      > No bloody time for anything right now though unfortunately
2023-04-19 17:51:08 <veltas      > So much work on right now
2023-04-19 21:22:22 <KipIngram   > Dude, my latest system has been sitting un-worked on for over a year.  I know exactly how you feel.