2023-07-11 04:31:29 <veltas      > MrMobius: "Latest and greatest" was the main selling point of Arch
2023-07-11 04:31:47 <veltas      > Also it's a popular distro with a lot of packages, and the AUR has even more
2023-07-11 04:32:12 <veltas      > And it used to be very well documented and friendly, but I don't mind saying I think it became elitist over the years
2023-07-11 07:51:03 <veltas      > drakonis: I've not installed it recently, that sounds good
2023-07-11 07:53:43 <drakonis    > alternatively, you can use nixos for even more things
2023-07-11 07:57:19 <drakonis    > also i do not recommend touching anything by oracle
2023-07-11 07:57:28 <drakonis    > its pretty much setting yourself for being lawyered
2023-07-11 07:57:38 <veltas      > Too late
2023-07-11 08:30:48 <KipIngram   > I feel like the most they (Oracle) could do is take this away from me.
2023-07-11 08:31:12 <Zarutian_iPad> this the java letter?
2023-07-11 08:31:53 <KipIngram   > No, I'm unaware of what that is.  veltas and I have each just snagged one of these free vms Oracle is offering.
2023-07-11 08:32:22 <Zarutian_iPad> oh. Yeah treat them as ephimeral instances
2023-07-11 08:32:29 <KipIngram   > Correct.
2023-07-11 08:33:05 <KipIngram   > Let me just say that if I become "noticeable" to Oracle in terms of their legal billable hours, then my life will have... changed in some unexpected way.
2023-07-11 08:33:30 <drakonis    > dont rely on oracle for anything, really.
2023-07-11 08:33:34 <KipIngram   > I have the good fortune of being someone no big entity gives a damn about.
2023-07-11 08:33:45 <drakonis    > their lawyer maze is not to be trifled with
2023-07-11 08:33:59 <KipIngram   > I imagine not.
2023-07-11 08:34:36 <KipIngram   > From my point of view that would be true of almost any significant corporation.
2023-07-11 08:34:50 <veltas      > I am treating the server as "this could just be gone one day"
2023-07-11 08:35:03 <KipIngram   > ^ that
2023-07-11 08:35:10 <veltas      > I'm hoping they don't sue me for just using the server for IRC and maybe some techy web blog
2023-07-11 08:35:15 <drakonis    > oracle has made a name for themselves through being exploitative
2023-07-11 08:35:18 <drakonis    > basically
2023-07-11 08:35:22 <Zarutian_iPad> these lawyers. Their identities are known yes? I wonder how they will react to being boycotted in the sense that no one wants to sell them anything.
2023-07-11 08:35:43 <drakonis    > its a known quantity
2023-07-11 08:35:53 <KipIngram   > I don't believe in attacking individuals who are just doing the job they're paid to do.
2023-07-11 08:36:24 <Zarutian_iPad> attacking? I am just thinking that they will be ignored
2023-07-11 08:36:45 <KipIngram   > When that kind of thing is "organized" into weaponized form, it becomes an attack.
2023-07-11 08:36:50 <KipIngram   > "Cancel culture" - I hate it.
2023-07-11 08:37:03 <KipIngram   > Yes, I understand each individual is just making their own free choice.
2023-07-11 08:37:16 <KipIngram   > But when it's organized like that it becomes as wicked as the corporations themselves.
2023-07-11 08:37:36 <KipIngram   > I'm fine if it's directed toward THE CORPORATION.
2023-07-11 08:37:44 <KipIngram   > A boycott of Oracle?  Sure.
2023-07-11 08:37:54 <KipIngram   > But I'm just not down for attacking the employees at the personal level.
2023-07-11 08:38:03 <veltas      > I really just don't want to have to take sides over every single thing, maybe I just want a free server with a low bar of standards
2023-07-11 08:38:10 <KipIngram   > That becomes a "two wrongs don't make a right" thing.
2023-07-11 08:38:20 <KipIngram   > ^^ I agree.
2023-07-11 08:38:29 <KipIngram   > We take sides too much in our culture these days.  It's poisonous.
2023-07-11 08:38:38 <Zarutian_iPad> The difference is the power to coerce, going through courts and lawfare is one such power.
2023-07-11 08:38:40 <veltas      > I don't expect much from this server
2023-07-11 08:38:49 <veltas      > I don't really see how using this server will benefit Oracle, either
2023-07-11 08:39:07 <KipIngram   > I assume this is a form of advertising for them.
2023-07-11 08:39:17 <KipIngram   > SOME of the people who do this will upgrade and become paying customers.
2023-07-11 08:39:19 <Zarutian_iPad> look at it like an empty lot with cyber weeds
2023-07-11 08:39:22 <KipIngram   > It's a "promotion."
2023-07-11 08:39:23 <veltas      > Yeah I guess, well that's been conditioned by the content of our discussion
2023-07-11 08:39:50 <veltas      > Any 'advertising' has been negated by people in here warning against doing business with them, that's probably why they have such a generous free tier in the first place
2023-07-11 08:40:25 <veltas      > People are wise to it, I'm also just quite happy to exploit this free tier
2023-07-11 08:41:03 <KipIngram   > It's similar to taking one of those "zero interest for a year" credit card offers.  You wind up paying nothing if you pay it off in full before the year is up.
2023-07-11 08:41:09 <KipIngram   > You borrow their money for free.
2023-07-11 08:41:22 <KipIngram   > but some folks won't get it paid off, and those are the targets of that strategy.
2023-07-11 08:41:38 <KipIngram   > I've definitely gotten some good out of those over the years.
2023-07-11 08:41:56 <veltas      > The trick is to take like 20 of those credit cards and go off the grid :)
2023-07-11 08:42:03 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-07-11 08:42:10 <Zarutian_iPad> such zero interest credit cards are quite the boon for carders that have fullz
2023-07-11 08:42:13 <KipIngram   > I've always wondered how well set up they are to detect that.
2023-07-11 08:42:23 <KipIngram   > You'd have to really time that well.
2023-07-11 08:42:35 <veltas      > KipIngram: Make sure they're cancelled, because they're quite often hacked down the road
2023-07-11 08:42:42 <KipIngram   > Yeah.
2023-07-11 08:44:44 <veltas      > I don't think you have to time them that well, I honestly have quite a low opinion of the whole financial system
2023-07-11 08:45:17 <KipIngram   > Could be.  In the US at least, though, the minute you do anything of that type everyone knows about it.
2023-07-11 08:45:29 <veltas      > You would have to break the law to do it probably, by lying about how many cards you have already, if that's necessary
2023-07-11 08:45:43 <KipIngram   > At a Christmas party for my wife's employer 10-15 years ago I chatted with one of her coworkers - a French guy.
2023-07-11 08:45:53 <KipIngram   > He told me that in France creditors are not allowed to share information.
2023-07-11 08:46:05 <veltas      > I wonder if that's still the case
2023-07-11 08:46:15 <KipIngram   > So if you fall on hard times, you can choose which creditors to pay and which ones to bail on, and you maintain your good relationships with the ones you pay.
2023-07-11 08:46:24 <KipIngram   > Yeah, this was a while ago.
2023-07-11 08:46:27 <veltas      > The thing is... that probably makes it harder to get a card at all in France.
2023-07-11 08:46:30 <veltas      > If it's still the case
2023-07-11 08:46:35 <KipIngram   > I told him straight up that that was better than what we do in the States.
2023-07-11 08:46:46 <KipIngram   > I think he was surprised to hear an American make such a concession.
2023-07-11 08:46:47 <veltas      > The reason you can get so much is because there is so much information in place to help them do this with less risk
2023-07-11 08:46:53 <KipIngram   > But it's obviously better.
2023-07-11 08:47:00 <veltas      > It's not obvious at all to me :)
2023-07-11 08:47:13 <KipIngram   > I guess I just believe in second chances.
2023-07-11 08:47:21 <veltas      > Oh yes me too
2023-07-11 08:47:26 <KipIngram   > Just falling on hard times for a short period shouldn't torpedo someone's life.
2023-07-11 08:47:31 <Zarutian_iPad> a company here in town initialied C.I. has gotten into quite the trouble of sharing that kind of info about debtors
2023-07-11 08:47:41 <veltas      > KipIngram: That info expires after 5 years right?
2023-07-11 08:47:53 <KipIngram   > I'm not sure about that.   Probably.
2023-07-11 08:48:20 <veltas      > I think it should torpedo your assets if you mismanage your finances, I don't see why people who are careful with money should end up ultimately footing the bill of people who live large and can just get away with it
2023-07-11 08:48:27 <KipIngram   > Part of it is just that I'm generally opposed to all the "monitoring" we're subject to to start with.
2023-07-11 08:48:43 <veltas      > And trust me few people are actually held to it anyway, it's always easier for them to just "work something out" than send in bailiffs
2023-07-11 08:48:52 <KipIngram   > My feeling on it is that my relationship with company A just isn't company B's business.
2023-07-11 08:49:25 <KipIngram   > But, that ship has sailed in the US - I don't see it ever changing.
2023-07-11 08:49:31 <veltas      > Credit cards couldn't exist without that kind of trust, without that info you'd probably need a 'credit tab' for each company you shopped with
2023-07-11 08:49:44 <KipIngram   > I think the US needs a GDRP law too.
2023-07-11 08:50:03 <veltas      > It's a classic situation where the 'fairer' option for individuals would stifle the market
2023-07-11 08:50:18 <Zarutian_iPad> or you know, just use a payment push system and not pull
2023-07-11 08:50:29 <KipIngram   > Individuals are what matter to me, though.
2023-07-11 08:50:44 <KipIngram   > I think everything about our culture should be oriented around individuals.
2023-07-11 08:51:29 <veltas      > I don't have any particular ideology around that
2023-07-11 08:52:04 <Zarutian_iPad> I am thinking that there has been a rise in coerciveness/authorianism kind of thinking factors the last 25 years or so.
2023-07-11 08:52:24 <veltas      > I consider myself a sort of baseline socialist, in that I think lots of public services should be freely available to anyone
2023-07-11 08:52:25 <KipIngram   > Definitely.
2023-07-11 08:52:53 <KipIngram   > I'm not entirely against such things.  I do think that a prosperous society shouldn't let people "fall through the cracks."
2023-07-11 08:53:22 <veltas      > And then there are things like 'oooh I want a big fat credit card and I don't care if I can pay it off' or 'oooh I want incredibly low interest rates so I can buy 10 houses and rent them to people who can no longer afford them because of people like me'
2023-07-11 08:53:43 <KipIngram   > But I think the free market is the most amazing "productivity engine" that has ever been conceieved, and it's built around free choices, so that's good too.  However, the tendency is for large entities that can "steer" the market to emerge, and that's no longer a good thing.
2023-07-11 08:54:17 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: you nailed it
2023-07-11 08:54:27 <KipIngram   > I'd like to see a fine-grain, "grass roots" free market economy, with a moderate "safety net" put in place by government policies.
2023-07-11 08:54:30 <veltas      > and I don't particularly like that kind of stuff and I don't think the state should protect your assets from your misuse of finance
2023-07-11 08:54:34 <Zarutian_iPad> the wallst broism
2023-07-11 08:54:47 <KipIngram   > And that net should definitely include health care, reduction of extreme poverty, etc.
2023-07-11 08:54:57 <veltas      > The safety net is you will be fed and sheltered, and your kids educated, and you get health / protection etc
2023-07-11 08:54:59 <KipIngram   > But I'm not at all for "complete" socialism with the goal of equalizing everything.
2023-07-11 08:55:10 <KipIngram   > Yes, exactly.
2023-07-11 08:55:19 <KipIngram   > You get to be sure of a "dignified" life.
2023-07-11 08:55:22 <veltas      > Not that you get to own your house after buying two brand new cards and interest rates go up 0.1% and you can't afford them anymore
2023-07-11 08:55:26 <veltas      > I could care less
2023-07-11 08:55:29 <KipIngram   > Not necessarily a luxurious one, though.
2023-07-11 08:55:33 <veltas      > If I lose my house I still have my life
2023-07-11 08:55:46 <veltas      > I think I'm influenced by Christianity on this thinking
2023-07-11 08:56:06 <KipIngram   > Not a bad thing to be influenced by.
2023-07-11 08:56:35 <veltas      > It's just stuff. I think the state should protect from 'evil', not 'make me comfortable because I messed my finances up'
2023-07-11 08:56:43 <KipIngram   > I think that's another thing that has suffered from "big."  Christian thinking is quite noble, but big chruches have done quite a bit of "wicked" over the ages.
2023-07-11 08:56:57 <KipIngram   > That's not Christianity being "bad" - it's certain people being bad.
2023-07-11 08:57:17 <veltas      > Yeah well listen to big churches now, many of them aren't even Christian
2023-07-11 08:57:24 <KipIngram   > Agreed.
2023-07-11 08:57:56 <KipIngram   > Basically I just think anything "big" becomes more a means to power for the people running it than anything it initially set out to be.
2023-07-11 09:00:52 <Zarutian_iPad> my question is why is it something that needs people running it?
2023-07-11 09:01:38 <Zarutian_iPad> this is why I like stuff like the Ugly Indian and trash picking clean ups and such
2023-07-11 09:02:11 <KipIngram   > That's a good question in many cases.  A lot of things will just take care of themselves.  Either naturally or a market will develop around it.
2023-07-11 09:02:25 <Zarutian_iPad> you get the idea out and people see that they can do it without a huge overbuilding thing
2023-07-11 09:02:26 <KipIngram   > Not everything, of course.
2023-07-11 09:03:13 <KipIngram   > But a general tendency of government is to involve itself in everything.
2023-07-11 09:03:20 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: Their guidelines look pretty good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_Indian
2023-07-11 09:03:48 <KipIngram   > Just a funny example - there was a movie with George Clooney 15 years ago or so that involved the very early days of professional football in the US.
2023-07-11 09:03:54 <KipIngram   > Before it was anything significant.
2023-07-11 09:04:01 <veltas      > That's not really a 'market', it's more philanthropy
2023-07-11 09:04:18 <KipIngram   > Anyway, this was fiction, of course, but in the movie Congress wound up scrutinizing the whole business.
2023-07-11 09:04:22 <Zarutian_iPad> I do not think it is a tendency of government but certain kind of folks that get into government. Often folks that should not be in those positions.
2023-07-11 09:04:38 <KipIngram   > And I remember thinking "Why on earth would Congress think it needed to involve itself in something as silly as FOOTBALL?"
2023-07-11 09:04:47 <KipIngram   > Something of no real importance in any way.
2023-07-11 09:04:49 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: Power attracts the worst people unfortunately
2023-07-11 09:05:13 <KipIngram   > If the whole business had just disappeared one night, the world wouldn't be any worse off from it.
2023-07-11 09:05:48 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: similiar how Tour de France kind of developed
2023-07-11 09:05:55 <KipIngram   > I don't know if there was any truth at all to that, but it "played" like something based on history.
2023-07-11 09:06:11 <KipIngram   > Right - same thing there.  WHO CARES?
2023-07-11 09:06:23 <KipIngram   > I'd rather have my government focusing on meaningful stuff.
2023-07-11 09:06:25 <Zarutian_iPad> it used to be just a tour kind of thing for overenthusiastic cyclists
2023-07-11 09:07:01 <KipIngram   > "Leatherheads."
2023-07-11 09:07:10 <KipIngram   > ^ the Clooney movie.
2023-07-11 09:07:38 <KipIngram   > John Goodman and Renee Zelwegger were in that too.
2023-07-11 09:07:43 <veltas      > KipIngram: Football? Bread and circuses is why
2023-07-11 09:07:57 <KipIngram   > I happen to live in Renee Zelwegger's home town.
2023-07-11 09:08:31 <KipIngram   > I don't mean Houston - I mean the little place out here near me.
2023-07-11 09:09:17 <KipIngram   > Technically I guess I don't - I live in Fulshear and she's from Katy.  But Katy and Fulshear are practically the same thing, and both very small.
2023-07-11 09:10:20 <Zarutian_iPad> how small? in say Dunbar number terms?
2023-07-11 09:10:41 <KipIngram   > veltas: Bread and circuses - good point.
2023-07-11 09:10:51 <KipIngram   > It does make sense from that perspective, doesn't it?
2023-07-11 09:11:02 <KipIngram   > Whatever has the public's attention is a potential circus.
2023-07-11 09:11:28 <KipIngram   > I'll rephrase my earlier statement - why would Congress LEGITIMATELY care about...
2023-07-11 09:12:23 <KipIngram   > Zarutian_iPad: it had never occurred to me to look into Tour de France history.  That's probably pretty interesting.
2023-07-11 09:12:35 <KipIngram   > I've always been a fan - used to do a LOT of cycling.
2023-07-11 09:12:49 <KipIngram   > Mostly when I lived in Austin - it's great cycling country.
2023-07-11 09:12:55 <KipIngram   > Houston - not so much.
2023-07-11 09:13:22 <KipIngram   > Here in Houston it's flat as a board for miles around and the wind NEVER stops blowing.
2023-07-11 09:13:52 <Zarutian_iPad> the thing is that quite a few villages that used to be on the route has expressively forbidden cycling just the two or three weeks the Tour happens
2023-07-11 09:14:14 <KipIngram   > Wait - clarify?
2023-07-11 09:14:21 <Zarutian_iPad> this wind is it consistent? could one do land sailing?
2023-07-11 09:14:28 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: Stuff like that is hilarious
2023-07-11 09:14:29 <KipIngram   > You're saying they didn't want the Tour to pass through?
2023-07-11 09:14:58 <veltas      > Is it bad that I laughed quite a bit when the trains striked during Glastonbury?
2023-07-11 09:15:20 <Zarutian_iPad> the issue was the Tour caused such an annoyance for the locals and other such that they has to resort to these bans
2023-07-11 09:15:42 <KipIngram   > I think the goal of such strikes is to attract public pressure against the employers, so I guess the more riled up the public will be the better.
2023-07-11 09:16:41 <KipIngram   > We have a rodeo every spring in Houston.  The participants "parade in" over the several days prior, and it disrupts traffic something fierce.
2023-07-11 09:16:45 <KipIngram   > Same kind of thing.
2023-07-11 09:17:47 <KipIngram   > Contrary to what a lot of people elsewhere seem to think of Texas, at least in my part of Texas you just don't see horses and wagons and that kind of thing.
2023-07-11 09:17:53 <KipIngram   > Except then, at rodeo time.
2023-07-11 09:20:00 <KipIngram   > Zarutian_iPad: no, the wind isn't terribly consistent.  At least not in its direction.
2023-07-11 09:20:30 <KipIngram   > It's probably not that different from most other places, except we don't have any terrain to slow the wind down.
2023-07-11 09:20:56 <KipIngram   > I've never lived anywhere else so flat.
2023-07-11 09:20:57 <Zarutian_iPad> or trees for that matter?
2023-07-11 09:21:16 <KipIngram   > It's not like you never see a tree, but yeah, it's certainly not "forested."
2023-07-11 09:22:29 <Zarutian_iPad> went to part of Germany many years back that had is rather flat. Most of it was forrested for industrial timber use
2023-07-11 09:22:54 <Zarutian_iPad> rather surreal in that regard
2023-07-11 09:23:18 <KipIngram   > Katy historically has produced a lot of rice.  I guess the flat helps with catching the water in the right way.
2023-07-11 09:23:58 <KipIngram   > These days, though, its mostly "yuppie-ville."  It's where everyone that earned enough money went to get away from Houston crime etc.
2023-07-11 09:24:16 <KipIngram   > Lower crime, better schools, etc.  Attracted a lot of people.
2023-07-11 09:24:33 <KipIngram   > It's certainly why my wife and I moved out here - for the school district, specifically.
2023-07-11 09:25:31 <KipIngram   > I think the real estate developers manipulate the school zones, to create that lure deliberately.
2023-07-11 09:25:53 <KipIngram   > I think over time they build an area out and then push the good schools a bit further west and start the process all over.
2023-07-11 09:26:15 <KipIngram   > They first build "high end homes," seed the schools, and lure the affluent into the area.
2023-07-11 09:26:45 <Zarutian_iPad> now I am curious. How are schools measured or compare-ranked to determine which are better than others etc?
2023-07-11 09:27:00 <KipIngram   > Then when they finish soaking that area with homes, they put in low-rent apartments, strip centers, and so on, which generally bring problems into the area, and offer a new carrot 10-15 miles further west.
2023-07-11 09:27:09 <KipIngram   > Sell to the same people several times during their lives.
2023-07-11 09:27:38 <KipIngram   > I think there's a great story there for an investigative reporter, except I imagine they might get beaten up if they tried to cover it.
2023-07-11 09:28:04 <KipIngram   > Most of the strategy would be fully  legal, but tinkering with the school quality would not be.
2023-07-11 09:28:59 <KipIngram   > Zarutian_iPad: I'm not sure how to answer that.  But it's something that just becomes "common knowledge."
2023-07-11 09:29:09 <KipIngram   > You hear about bad events happening in some schools more than others.
2023-07-11 09:29:16 <KipIngram   > More problems with drugs, etc.
2023-07-11 09:29:37 <Zarutian_iPad> ah, "those kind of schools"
2023-07-11 09:29:39 <KipIngram   > And there are "ratings" of the school districts.  I'm not really sure how they're run.
2023-07-11 09:29:55 <KipIngram   > Standardized test scores, maybe.
2023-07-11 09:30:14 <KipIngram   > But it's really just the usual thing re: "bad neighborhoods."
2023-07-11 09:30:21 <KipIngram   > Somehow you get a feel for where they are.
2023-07-11 09:30:46 <Zarutian_iPad> standardized tests often only cause pupils getting good at passing tests
2023-07-11 09:30:46 <KipIngram   > We got that first house in Katy in 1996, and we've moved further west twice.
2023-07-11 09:30:57 <KipIngram   > Both times you could see things become more problematic where we were.
2023-07-11 09:31:21 <KipIngram   > Like I said, I think the developers actually "engineer" this process.
2023-07-11 09:31:25 <Zarutian_iPad> KipIngram: problematic in which ways?
2023-07-11 09:31:27 <KipIngram   > Can't prove it, but it feels right to me.
2023-07-11 09:31:51 <KipIngram   > Police being called to the neighborhood more often, more stories about drugs and assaults in the local schools, etc.
2023-07-11 09:31:53 <veltas      > A lot of the time *more people* just make things worse
2023-07-11 09:32:18 <KipIngram   > Right - and that's contributed to by those low rent apartments, that don't go in until late in the development phase.
2023-07-11 09:32:30 <KipIngram   > They literally reserve space for them, and hold it empty for quite a wile.
2023-07-11 09:32:34 <KipIngram   > while
2023-07-11 09:32:41 <KipIngram   > Until they're ready to "be done" with a zone.
2023-07-11 09:33:06 <KipIngram   > The high end homes go in first, and then cheaper tiers of homes, and the apartments last.
2023-07-11 09:34:18 <KipIngram   > The first time we moved, we heard two weeks after setting into the new house that a police officer had been shot in the neighborhood we just moved out of.
2023-07-11 09:34:27 <KipIngram   > settling
2023-07-11 09:35:02 <KipIngram   > And of course they've got us on their hook - it was about our kids.  We wanted them to grow up in safe surroundings, and were willing to pay for that.
2023-07-11 09:35:58 <KipIngram   > Which in the eyes of many people would make us part of the problem - rather than fight to make things better we run away.
2023-07-11 09:36:30 <veltas      > How exactly are you meant to improve things though?
2023-07-11 09:36:40 <Zarutian_iPad> sounds like the 'developers'/realestaters are more likely the cause
2023-07-11 09:36:40 <KipIngram   > Yeah, that's very fuzzy isn't it?
2023-07-11 09:36:53 <veltas      > I don't think you've made the problem at all, the problem is particular people, and either they're reigned in or they're not
2023-07-11 09:36:55 <KipIngram   > Oh, I think that's true, Zarutian_iPad.
2023-07-11 09:37:01 <KipIngram   > But I see no way to stop them.
2023-07-11 09:37:11 <KipIngram   > It's a damn clever strategy when you think about.
2023-07-11 09:37:15 <KipIngram   > it
2023-07-11 09:37:47 <veltas      > The developers aren't at fault either lol
2023-07-11 09:37:58 <veltas      > It's the problem people that make the place unsafe
2023-07-11 09:37:59 <KipIngram   > Like I said, I can't prove any of that, really.
2023-07-11 09:38:10 <KipIngram   > veltas: I would agree, up to manipulating the school qualities.
2023-07-11 09:38:12 <Zarutian_iPad> I think I just realized why USA cities/urbia is so sprawly
2023-07-11 09:38:17 <KipIngram   > Which I can't actually prove they do.
2023-07-11 09:38:25 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: It's the case in UK too
2023-07-11 09:38:26 <KipIngram   > I just suspect it's part of the process.
2023-07-11 09:38:42 <KipIngram   > Yes, I think it explains sprawl in many places.
2023-07-11 09:38:55 <veltas      > KipIngram: The 'problem people' I'm talking about are criminals etc, at the low level. Not the planners.
2023-07-11 09:39:19 <veltas      > The high level issue is that you're not being protected by police etc, from what I hear (not sure about accuracy) the police are part of the danger
2023-07-11 09:39:25 <KipIngram   > Yes, but even some of them are also just trying to take care of their kids.
2023-07-11 09:39:30 <Zarutian_iPad> we Icelanders have a word for these peoples that cause the 'neighbourhood to go down the drain': pakk
2023-07-11 09:39:32 <KipIngram   > It's wrong, but understandable.
2023-07-11 09:39:43 <veltas      > KipIngram: Which criminals are "just trying to take care of their kids", very few I'd wager
2023-07-11 09:40:14 <KipIngram   > I can't argue with you.  Even crime gets "big and organized" too.
2023-07-11 09:40:30 <veltas      > I don't want to villify bad people, I just think you need law and order for the sake of the (mostly) good people
2023-07-11 09:40:54 <KipIngram   > But it's commonplace for crime rates to be higher in lower income neighborhoods, so I think it's clear that there's some "social pressure" causing it.
2023-07-11 09:40:58 <Zarutian_iPad> and 'problem people' might be an accurate translation of it though it looses one of the connotations
2023-07-11 09:41:10 <KipIngram   > I've called it "the wave of decay."
2023-07-11 09:41:16 <KipIngram   > It just slowly spreads outward.
2023-07-11 09:41:20 <KipIngram   > from the urban center.
2023-07-11 09:41:46 <KipIngram   > Very gradual - it can take years for it to move a few miles.
2023-07-11 09:41:59 <KipIngram   > But I've seen it chasing me over these last 25 years.
2023-07-11 09:42:28 <Zarutian_iPad> one of the connotations is that pakk was often the filler material to stuff crates or such.
2023-07-11 09:42:34 <KipIngram   > The next time we move I will no longer care about the school district.  My youngest is collegebound this fall.
2023-07-11 09:42:53 <KipIngram   > So we may make a different kind of move then.  Capture our equity from this house and do a "retirement move."
2023-07-11 09:43:03 <KipIngram   > To something much more modest, that we can buy outright.
2023-07-11 09:43:30 <thrig       > building ghettos right next to the interstate with leaded gas was a brilliant move
2023-07-11 09:44:05 <veltas      > 'building ghettos' I think you can stop there
2023-07-11 09:44:16 <Zarutian_iPad> "problem people" is something I been idly half researching for quite some time. Specially how they come to be.
2023-07-11 09:44:56 <KipIngram   > I don't think things like this are "caused" completely - I think there are normal, natural social pressures that move things in certain directions.  I just think in some cases those natural processes get "capitalized on" and perhaps "encouraged."
2023-07-11 09:44:57 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: "building projects"?
2023-07-11 09:45:00 <KipIngram   > "Facilitated."
2023-07-11 09:45:37 <veltas      > I mean the question for me is why were 'ghettos' necessary in first place?
2023-07-11 09:45:45 <KipIngram   > For example, if you control the housing in a region, and you do something that opens it up to lower income residents, I don't think it's surprising to then see crime rates rise.
2023-07-11 09:45:46 <veltas      > What's the cause, what's the goal?
2023-07-11 09:45:51 <thrig       > they tore down the, um, "bad neighborhoods" (blacks, italians, etc) when they put the interstate through in the first place. Robert Moses was a real character
2023-07-11 09:46:12 <veltas      > Yeah that certainly doesn't help
2023-07-11 09:48:23 <Zarutian_iPad> 
ACTION comes across a yet another Chess variant https://playlaser.xyz

2023-07-11 09:49:38 <KipIngram   > Wow, there sure are a lot of those.  :-)
2023-07-11 09:50:04 <KipIngram   > veltas: The goal for these developers is MONEY, of course.
2023-07-11 09:50:17 <veltas      > How do 'ghettos' make money?
2023-07-11 09:50:22 <veltas      > That's what I was asking about
2023-07-11 09:50:32 <thrig       > by keeping "those people" away from elsewhere
2023-07-11 09:50:42 <KipIngram   > The first position the neighborhood for maximum appeal to the high income folks.  Then gradually pull it downward, so they can sell those same folks another home a decade later.
2023-07-11 09:50:52 <veltas      > thrig: You know the problem people I'm talking about are criminals, not ethnic groups
2023-07-11 09:50:57 <KipIngram   > Oh, sorry.
2023-07-11 09:51:04 <veltas      > There is no criminal ethnic group (as far as I'm aware...)
2023-07-11 09:51:47 <KipIngram   > veltas: I didn't take it that way at all (as aimed at any particular ethnic group).
2023-07-11 09:52:11 <KipIngram   > Even where you can point out statistical corellations, ethnicity is not THE CAUSE.
2023-07-11 09:52:15 <thrig       > and yet! redlining is a thing. invisible hand of the market and all that
2023-07-11 09:53:05 <veltas      > The market won't solve these problems, it will exasperate them
2023-07-11 09:53:22 <KipIngram   > Even individuals redline sometimes.  When a couple of my daughters were young, the neighborhood across the street from their school apparently was "not well thought of."  I didn't know that, but it turned out to be the case.
2023-07-11 09:53:29 <veltas      > But I do think law and order is one of the solutions. And it wouldn't really be good law if one group were treated unfairly verses another, of course.
2023-07-11 09:53:32 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: oh? I thought lollygaggers was an ethnicuty
2023-07-11 09:53:43 <KipIngram   > Rather than wait in the huge pickup line at the end of the day, I'd park on the street in that neighborhood and walk over to get them.
2023-07-11 09:53:48 <Zarutian_iPad> s/cut/cit/
2023-07-11 09:54:04 <KipIngram   > On one occasion I got introduced to the mom of one of their friends.
2023-07-11 09:54:13 <KipIngram   > This was at a party or something - can't remember.
2023-07-11 09:54:26 <thrig       > the law is impartial in denying the right to sleep under that interstate
2023-07-11 09:54:41 <KipIngram   > Anyway, she actually SAID to me that she'd seen me walking out of that neighborhood on one of those days, and that she wouldn't have talked to me if she hadn't found out where I "really lived."
2023-07-11 09:54:59 <KipIngram   > So just seeing me walk out of that neighborhood, and assuming I lived there, was enough for her to personally redline me.
2023-07-11 09:55:08 <KipIngram   > What I was shocked by was that she actually said that out loud.
2023-07-11 09:55:31 <veltas      > thrig: I think you should be allowed to sleep under any bridge you want, as long as you conduct yourself decently
2023-07-11 09:55:50 <KipIngram   > veltas: Yeah - public space should be public space.
2023-07-11 09:55:53 <veltas      > I do believe in troll rights to an extent
2023-07-11 09:55:59 <veltas      > troll tolls etc
2023-07-11 09:56:04 <thrig       > that's nice, but not what I observed in my daily walks under I-5
2023-07-11 09:57:00 <veltas      > I promise that I myself will behave appropriately under bridges
2023-07-11 09:57:10 <veltas      > I can't make any guarantees for anyone else
2023-07-11 09:58:23 <veltas      > Most homeless people I meet are clearly just mentally ill, it's really sad
2023-07-11 09:58:58 <Zarutian_iPad> Regan&co closing the sanatoriums?
2023-07-11 09:59:00 <veltas      > I saw a bunch of them pushing one dude in a wheelchair the other day in Leicester with a broken wheel at the front, down the middle of the road
2023-07-11 09:59:12 <veltas      > I don't think Regan did that in the UK :)
2023-07-11 09:59:29 <thrig       > you had Thatcher
2023-07-11 09:59:31 <veltas      > I told them to try pulling it backwards, I hope that helped
2023-07-11 09:59:32 <Zarutian_iPad> in UK it was Thatcher
2023-07-11 09:59:47 <veltas      > No it wasn't, look it up if you want to know who it was
2023-07-11 09:59:52 <veltas      > I happen to know it was Thatcher
2023-07-11 09:59:57 <veltas      > I think it was before her time
2023-07-11 10:00:21 <veltas      > I think another Tory government though
2023-07-11 10:00:49 <Zarutian_iPad> oy, I have carticurated/monotyped the cause to those and I am not bothering to change that :þ
2023-07-11 10:01:56 <KipIngram   > At the time Reagan was actually in office I was a big fan.  I feel like if I were living through those days now, I'd still regognize positives in him, but I suspect I'd see some negatives too.  I was just really young at the time, and young people don't always think things through well enough.
2023-07-11 10:02:08 <KipIngram   > Don't see the big picture.
2023-07-11 10:02:15 <veltas      > Tony Blair introduced Student Loans, a lot of people seem to now know that here either
2023-07-11 10:02:21 <thrig       > MAYBE IT WAS SOMETHING IN THE REGAN WATER
2023-07-11 10:02:39 <KipIngram   > There's an A in there before the G.
2023-07-11 10:03:35 <KipIngram   > I know that in later years I learned things about his time as governor of  California that I was less than thoroughly impreseed with.
2023-07-11 10:06:32 <KipIngram   > Tony Blair was post Thatcher, wasn't he?
2023-07-11 10:06:35 <veltas      > And today people have been talking about Britain's "crumbling rail infrastructure" under privitisation, unaware that the infrastructure is maintained by a public entity for at least 20 years now
2023-07-11 10:06:39 <veltas      > KipIngram: Yes
2023-07-11 10:07:03 <KipIngram   > I would have guessed tuition loans came earlier than that; shows you what I know.
2023-07-11 10:07:26 <KipIngram   > By the way - there's one more thing that has been wickedly exploited by "overgrown capitalism."
2023-07-11 10:07:33 <KipIngram   > Student loans.
2023-07-11 10:07:48 <veltas      > I don't have a point in saying this, other than people seem to be ideological and uninformed
2023-07-11 10:07:58 <KipIngram   > I agree.
2023-07-11 10:08:08 <KipIngram   > Uninformed and lacking in rational thought processes.
2023-07-11 10:08:17 <KipIngram   > Most people just react emotionally, on a case-by-case basis.
2023-07-11 10:08:26 <KipIngram   > So you wind up with almost no consistency.
2023-07-11 10:09:06 <KipIngram   > Many times I've met people and learned about their feelings on a couple of issues, and just been dumbfounded as to how one person could hold that particular pair of positions at the same time.
2023-07-11 10:09:49 <veltas      > I mean either way our infrastructure is shite, but it doesn't help that people have been arguing a point that makes no sense
2023-07-11 10:10:22 <veltas      > Instead just blame the government, frankly this is something we *should* be able to do, in theory. I blame them if it's not right.
2023-07-11 10:10:52 <veltas      > Unfortunately blame doesn't fix things
2023-07-11 10:12:39 <veltas      > Yesterday "I can't read the news", today "so here is what I think about the news" :)
2023-07-11 10:12:50 <KipIngram   > Well, and it doesn't help that the argument from both sides of the aisle is always "If you'd just give us the power, everything would be fine."
2023-07-11 10:13:20 <veltas      > There's no benefit, I agree with what I said yesterday or before, that I just can't read news. I don't get any value from it.
2023-07-11 10:13:32 <veltas      > Signal to noise ratio too low
2023-07-11 10:14:13 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-07-11 10:14:27 <KipIngram   > And the TRUTH level is too low, too.
2023-07-11 10:14:32 <KipIngram   > I just don't trust them anymore.
2023-07-11 10:15:15 <KipIngram   > I think the primary goal (other than just making money) is to manipulate me and other "content consumers" rather than to "inform" me.
2023-07-11 10:15:59 <thrig       > "The Space Merchants" by Frederik Pohl and Cyril M. Kornbluth might be relevant
2023-07-11 10:16:28 <veltas      > News makes fools more stupid, and others unhappy
2023-07-11 10:16:48 <veltas      > And I fit in both camps on different days :)
2023-07-11 10:17:00 <KipIngram   > However you feel about the world, you can always find "news" to validate it.
2023-07-11 10:18:39 <Zarutian_iPad> my opinion of journos nose dived years ago when I got interviewed by one and she did not take any notes, even when I spefically requested her to to get the spelling of a thing correct
2023-07-11 10:19:09 <thrig       > was is spefically
2023-07-11 10:19:26 <KipIngram   > Ugh.
2023-07-11 10:19:51 <KipIngram   > Such professionalism.
2023-07-11 10:20:05 <Zarutian_iPad> whilist a hobby blogger just had a dictaphone recording whilist talking with me, with my permission.
2023-07-11 10:20:16 <thrig       > probably journalists being told "learn to code" doesn't help
2023-07-11 10:20:38 <Zarutian_iPad> thrig: it was way before that
2023-07-11 10:44:06 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: Shorthand is one of the reasons their spelling is wrong
2023-07-11 10:44:26 <veltas      > I always notice spelling mistakes when I'm in the paper
2023-07-11 10:45:03 <veltas      > I think shorthand is quite cool though
2023-07-11 10:45:17 <Zarutian_iPad> veltas: I am not talking about notes written in shorthand. I am just talking about bullet pointed stuff
2023-07-11 10:45:48 <veltas      > Oh I know modern journalists don't know shorthand
2023-07-11 10:46:12 <veltas      > Journalism today is browsing Twitter, don't need shorthand for that
2023-07-11 10:52:58 <KipIngram   > Heh.
2023-07-11 10:53:15 <KipIngram   > I thought about taking shorthand in high school.  Took typing instead.
2023-07-11 10:53:43 <KipIngram   > Either way my motivation at the time was to be in a class with a lot of cute girls - I had no idea how valuable ability to type was going to become.  Turned out to be a lucky break.
2023-07-11 10:57:53 <veltas      > Now this is an article I want to read: https://forth.works/casket-report.txt
2023-07-11 11:00:12 <gordonjcp   > KipIngram: I wanted to do Home Economics for much the same reason
2023-07-11 11:00:56 <gordonjcp   > KipIngram: I could already cook and sew and stuff, it was just the entire classroom full of girls that was the interesting point
2023-07-11 11:01:21 <KipIngram   > Indeed.
2023-07-11 11:01:52 <KipIngram   > I didn't learn to "cook" in what I call a valid sense until the year between marriages.
2023-07-11 11:02:37 <KipIngram   > The typing class did me no real good with the girls at all, but I will say that being able to cook in a significant way really did seem to appeal to the women I dated that year.
2023-07-11 11:02:49 <KipIngram   > The usual reaction was surprise and "pleased."
2023-07-11 11:03:16 <KipIngram   > I also kept my place quite neat, and that also appealed to them.
2023-07-11 11:04:43 <KipIngram   > But it's not hard to keep a place tidy when you don't mess it up very much to start with.  One person doesn't generate excessive mess.
2023-07-11 11:07:11 <KipIngram   > As far as the cooking went, I learned some of it from the first woman I dated that year, and the rest from books.
2023-07-11 11:08:48 <veltas      > Maybe men who've lived with women for a long time keep their places cleaner?
2023-07-11 11:09:07 <veltas      > I think after being with my wife I would probably keep my place tidier than I did as a student, getting used to it
2023-07-11 11:09:13 <KipIngram   > Maybe, definite possibility.
2023-07-11 11:09:28 <KipIngram   > In case anyone is interested, my top cooking book recommendation is this one:
2023-07-11 11:09:29 <KipIngram   > https://www.amazon.com/Now-Youre-Cooking-Everything-Dimensions/dp/1883791057
2023-07-11 11:19:19 <gordonjcp   > I kind of can't remember *not* being able to cook, tbh
2023-07-11 11:22:19 <KipIngram   > That's good.  Likely means you learned it mostly from your mom and dad, either formally or just by "being around and paying attention."
2023-07-11 11:24:38 <gordonjcp   > a bit of both really, my parents were both good cooks
2023-07-11 11:24:43 <KipIngram   > I'm not a gourmet or anything.  Just have decent "basic skills."
2023-07-11 11:24:59 <gordonjcp   > it's more having a sense of what seems "about right"
2023-07-11 11:25:08 <gordonjcp   > in cooking, as with anything else
2023-07-11 11:25:14 <thrig       > ratios can be important
2023-07-11 11:25:28 <gordonjcp   > it's the same with electronics
2023-07-11 11:25:38 <gordonjcp   > what's the right series resistor for an LED off a 5V supply?
2023-07-11 11:26:00 <gordonjcp   > I know people who would pore over datasheets to get the right current rating and Vf for the LED
2023-07-11 11:26:07 <gordonjcp   > apply a bit of Ohm's Law
2023-07-11 11:26:39 <gordonjcp   > end up with something like 146.2 Ohms, and then go mental trying to find a 146.2 Ohm resistor in the RS or Farnell website
2023-07-11 11:26:49 <gordonjcp   > you or I would say it needs to be a couple of hundred ohms
2023-07-11 11:27:07 <gordonjcp   > 150? Not got any. 220? Yeah, close enough.
2023-07-11 11:27:27 <gordonjcp   > 120? Might be a bit bright. 100? Mmmm, getting a bit close to the wind, but better than nothing
2023-07-11 11:41:14 <KipIngram   > Yeah - I know exactly what you mean.
2023-07-11 11:41:27 <KipIngram   > I crossed that boundary in beer brewing back when I did a lot of it.
2023-07-11 11:41:36 <KipIngram   > At first I was totally anal about every step.
2023-07-11 11:41:47 <KipIngram   > But by the end there was a lot of "ah, that'll be fine" going on.
2023-07-11 11:41:55 <KipIngram   > Beer turned out close to the same either way.
2023-07-11 11:42:47 <KipIngram   > I do think it's the right way, though - learn the rules first and then learn how to break them.
2023-07-11 11:44:18 <KipIngram   > The main value of the Ohm's law stuff is concepts - WHY is that range of resistors the right one?  No substitute for understanding "what's going on."
2023-07-11 11:46:13 <KipIngram   > Back when I was at BP Micro I'd often help technicians who were troubleshooting units that didn't pass test.  When one stymied them they'd call me over.  What impressed me was how much they *could* fix without any help.  In a lot of cases they could chase down a problem and fix it faster than any of the engineers could, and yet they didn't have one ounce of insight into what the circuit was actually *doing*.
2023-07-11 11:46:38 <KipIngram   > They just learned how things were supposed to "look" - they had little crib sheets with "normal voltages" at various nodes in the circuit.
2023-07-11 11:46:53 <KipIngram   > They'd find one that didn't match, and that triggered a particular "likely fault."
2023-07-11 11:47:03 <KipIngram   > Some of them were extremely good at it.
2023-07-11 11:47:13 <KipIngram   > But, no understanding.  Not really.
2023-07-11 12:47:54 <gordonjcp   > KipIngram: yup
2023-07-11 17:22:05 <veltas      > KipIngram: It's funny you talk about this, not being precise, my wife was just talking to me about this yesterday
2023-07-11 17:22:51 <veltas      > Someone in the kitchen she works at who is very experienced was talking about how she just eyeballs the cake ingredients
2023-07-11 17:23:01 <veltas      > Which I find very impressive, cake's not something you want to eyeball!
2023-07-11 17:39:57 <drakonis    > say, is there a GA144 emulator somewhere?
2023-07-11 17:40:39 <drakonis    > sans colorforth dependency, that is.
2023-07-11 17:44:29 <drakonis    > its also mildly annoying that i cant find any binaries that runs on linux
2023-07-11 17:47:57 <drakonis    > https://github.com/Phlarx/tis
2023-07-11 17:47:59 <drakonis    > hmm
2023-07-11 17:48:01 <drakonis    > adequate.
2023-07-11 18:18:50 <KipIngram   > Oh man - baking a cake is something I would probably still measure precisely for.  Some of those recipes are quite sensitive.
2023-07-11 18:19:52 <KipIngram   > If you find a GA144 emulator do let us know.  I'd like to get hands on that too.
2023-07-11 18:20:05 <KipIngram   > I've thought about buying some of there stuff, but just never was quite willing to let go of the money.
2023-07-11 18:22:45 <KipIngram   > I still have the impression that programming the GA144 would be more like designing a digital circuit than like doing normal programming.  It would be like doing a bunch of simple bits of regular programming, but then wiring those bits together like a circuit.
2023-07-11 19:12:53 <KipIngram   > You  know, it occurs to me that this threaded thing I'm planning now could potentiallyl emulate a GA144.  There's not a whole lot to a GA144 core - let a thread run each one, and hook 'em together with pipes.