2023-08-21 01:26:47 <siesta      > guys please look at my paint script it is in python3 https://github.com/rald/paint-script
2023-08-21 01:35:37 <iyzsong     > siesta: looks interesting!
2023-08-21 01:35:52 <siesta      > http://ix.io/4E8H here is example of paint script
2023-08-21 01:35:53 <siesta      > http://fria.bsdforall.org/images/0000.jpg here is the output
2023-08-21 03:16:36 <siesta      > https://termbin.com/g1hb
2023-08-21 03:16:46 <siesta      > heres turtle graphics
2023-08-21 03:17:11 <siesta      > http://fria.bsdforall.org/images/fac0.jpg
2023-08-21 03:17:24 <siesta      > heres the output
2023-08-21 03:56:13 <veltas      > What language is that termbin?
2023-08-21 04:01:40 <veltas      > KipIngram: Yeah we are living in 1984, I don't trust my phone or TV to not listen to me and watch me
2023-08-21 04:02:04 <veltas      > Caveat Paranoid Maniacus though
2023-08-21 06:30:28 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  Generlaly s peaking I'm proud of my profession and feel like "we" (referring here collectively to electronics and software engineers) have all helped make the world as amazing as it is.  But I also feel bad that my profession has helped create this surveillalnce state.  Back when I was a kid the government just *could not* keep up with *everyone* that well.  If they wanted to keep an eye on someone,
2023-08-21 06:30:30 <KipIngram   > they had to assign someone to follow him around, so they only had resources to be very selective about it.  We've... "fixed that" for them.  :-(
2023-08-21 06:30:53 <KipIngram   > Not something to be very proud of.
2023-08-21 06:32:15 <KipIngram   > When I was in college I did a work study program called the coop program.  Alternating semesters of work and school.  I knew another coop guy who had turned down a gig with Lockheed-Martin because he "didn't want to work on cruise missiles."  Well, I'm not sure what a lot of us *did* go work on instead really turned out any better, and given the fact that we've managed to avoid actually using those cruise
2023-08-21 06:32:17 <KipIngram   > missiles, maybe it's worse.
2023-08-21 06:33:10 <KipIngram   > However, I don't let myself feel too bad, because I know that had I not done my part of it all someone else would have.  It's like Pandora's box - you just can't keep those things from happening.
2023-08-21 06:33:56 <KipIngram   > And, collectively, we have also done a lot of good things.
2023-08-21 06:35:59 <KipIngram   > Geez - I read an article a few days ago on exercises you can do with a medicine ball.  I bought a 10-pound one and it came yesterday.  I lay down on the carpet and threw it up into the air above me, as explosively as I could, and caught it when it came back down.  Felt clumsy, but I did ok and I guess I'll get better at it.  But this morning I'm sore as hell through my shoulder and chest region.
2023-08-21 06:36:14 <KipIngram   > It didn't feel like THAT much - who'd have thought?
2023-08-21 08:28:58 <veltas      > lol I'm not proud to be part of my profession
2023-08-21 08:31:09 <veltas      > But I have no issue working for defence. Yeah we spend too much on it and it's not always used for good, but you always need defence.
2023-08-21 08:31:16 <veltas      > It's a trade
2023-08-21 08:31:41 <veltas      > Without an active defence sector and talent in that sector it will just provoke trouble
2023-08-21 08:32:19 <veltas      > That sector needs to exist, it can't be held responsible for geopolitics etc. Except the ones that lobby etc but that's part of larger social issues in the US
2023-08-21 08:33:09 <veltas      > And yeah most of our missiles etc haven't been fired and hopefully never will be
2023-08-21 10:11:22 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I agree.  I do think we spend more on it that we need to, but I'd rather spend too much that not enough.
2023-08-21 10:11:28 <KipIngram   > s/that/than/
2023-08-21 10:12:27 <KipIngram   > And also, one has to wonder if you really want your nation's defefenses to be "just enough" - if that was the case you might wind up having more wars because others thought maybe they could take you.  I'm fairly happy to live in a country that's so strong no one will even think about trying to invade us.
2023-08-21 10:12:58 <KipIngram   > War sucks - if spending "too much" keeps you out of it, maybe that's not so bad.
2023-08-21 10:13:15 <KipIngram   > That said, I can't say I love all the ways the US has thrown its weight around in the world.
2023-08-21 10:15:38 <veltas      > The overgrowth of defence isn't unique to defence, it's there throughout public institutions
2023-08-21 10:16:38 <veltas      > Yes don't agree with US geopolitical pattern but disagreeing with their decisions is different to saying we should boycott defence industry or not work for it, which IMO is sticking your head in the sand
2023-08-21 10:16:51 <veltas      > There's a limit but I don't think we've breached it
2023-08-21 10:16:56 <KipIngram   > That's true - defense is just a particularly aggregious example.
2023-08-21 10:20:36 <KipIngram   > I also agree with that last - I disapprove of some things that have happened, but not enough to feel like something drastic needs to be done.
2023-08-21 10:21:36 <KipIngram   > My only contact with the defense industry was my very first coop work tour in the summer of 1982; I spent that one working for General Dynamics on things related to F16 avionics.
2023-08-21 10:21:57 <KipIngram   > I really didn't know anything high brow at that point, so it was pretty lightweight work.
2023-08-21 10:22:11 <KipIngram   > Only had my freshman year under my belt.
2023-08-21 10:49:55 <xelxebar    > next4th: You know how to read text files on DuskOS? I'd like to look at the doc files but can't figure out how to view text.
2023-08-21 10:50:11 <xelxebar    > Need to read the docs so I know how to read the docs :P
2023-08-21 11:05:13 <KipIngram   > Heh.  I thought DuskOS was oriented toward running on systems that had no OS, and so no file system.  The documentation isn't accessible via block operations?
2023-08-21 11:06:11 <KipIngram   > Given their mission, you'd think they'd offer it both ways.
2023-08-21 11:16:22 <xelxebar    > It's supposed to be an OS, so it provides a simple filesystem as far as I can tell.
2023-08-21 11:17:23 <xelxebar    > There's infrastructure for block operations and pathname resolution, but I don't know how to use that without reading the documentation.
2023-08-21 11:18:11 <xelxebar    > Just looking for a quick 'n dirty method to read the docs as an initial entrypoint.
2023-08-21 11:32:09 <veltas      > Forth word for that is usually LIST
2023-08-21 11:32:17 <veltas      > i.e. 200 LIST shows you content of block 200
2023-08-21 11:33:01 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I'd just poke around in the blocks and see if I saw anything interesting.  If I'd created it, I'd have "roadmap" info in the low block numbers (like, block 1 would have something helpful in it).
2023-08-21 11:33:29 <veltas      > There's also trusty 200 BLOCK 1024 DUMP
2023-08-21 11:33:31 <veltas      > Got to love DUMP
2023-08-21 11:33:37 <KipIngram   > Or block 2, if block 1 was needed for boot loading.
2023-08-21 11:34:01 <veltas      > Yeah my expectation is block 2 has goodies
2023-08-21 22:23:13 <xelxebar    > Hrm. DuskOS has some notion of file paths, so you can apparently "read doc/usage.txt" somehow.
2023-08-21 22:24:17 <xelxebar    > Could definitely just poke around at blocks, I guess. Maybe useful for grubbing about until I find something better.
2023-08-21 23:14:26 <KipIngram   > Sounds like it has at least some notion of file system, then.
2023-08-21 23:21:01 <iyzsong     > yes, DuskOS use FAT, a precompiled kernel will load and compile sources (forth or C) during booting.
2023-08-21 23:28:40 <KipIngram   > Makes sense.
2023-08-21 23:28:47 <KipIngram   > FAT was a pretty simple setup.
2023-08-21 23:29:38 <KipIngram   > Well, I managed to find a paper over the weekend that (finally) let me crack open a math topic that had been resist my efforts for years.
2023-08-21 23:29:46 <KipIngram   > The idea of "fiber bundles."
2023-08-21 23:30:15 <KipIngram   > Perfect example of what I've complained about, where once you find a clear explanation it's pretty simple, but most coverages are almost incomprehensible.
2023-08-21 23:30:56 <KipIngram   > Easiest to describe with an example - if you consider a sphere (just the surface), then the tangent plane to some point on the sphere is that p oint's "fiber."
2023-08-21 23:31:16 <KipIngram   > And the collection of all such tangent planes, for the whole sphere, is a "fiber bundle."
2023-08-21 23:31:58 <KipIngram   > So the whole deal is a generalization of that.
2023-08-21 23:32:37 <KipIngram   > I.e., a fiber doesn't HAVE to be a tangent plane - it's any association of a full space with a point in another space.
2023-08-21 23:33:18 <KipIngram   > You may have heard that quantum spin isn't "real" rotation - rather it's rotation in some "internal space."  That internal space is a fiber.
2023-08-21 23:55:33 <xelxebar    > iyzsong: Any idea of the convenience words for displaying file contents?
2023-08-21 23:56:54 <xelxebar    > KipIngram: Yup! That's basically the idea of a fiber bundle. If your attached space is 1-dimensional, then it really does look like a bunch of fibers.
2023-08-21 23:57:56 <KipIngram   > Right.  Like "hair."
2023-08-21 23:57:56 <xelxebar    > The big key, though, are the coherence conditions. I.e. Just willy-nilly attaching spaces to all your points doesn't give you much. You need some way to translate fibers at x into fibers at y when you move between x and y.
2023-08-21 23:58:10 <KipIngram   > Anyway, it finally makes a degree of sense to me - not actually very "hard."
2023-08-21 23:58:30 <KipIngram   > I think I follow the idea of connections of a fiber bundle too - I think that's what the Christoffel symbols in tensor calculus are.
2023-08-21 23:59:10 <xelxebar    > Exactly. They core idea is dead simple, as with a lot of things in math, but the implementation generally leverages a lot a machinery, which makes it hard to break into without the right background.
2023-08-21 23:59:18 <KipIngram   > I think the main  problem with the treatments I've read in the past was that they're too "thick with fancy lingo."
2023-08-21 23:59:52 <xelxebar    > KipIngram: Exactly, Christoffel symbols give the exact transport semantics between bundles within differential geometry.
2023-08-21 23:59:55 <KipIngram   > Yeah, it's like untying Gordion's knot.  Hard to find the right place to "pull."