2023-09-13 01:20:01 <xelxebar    > KipIngram: Forth dictionary doesn't really play well with growable data, right? Something like `A←1 0 1 ⋄ A←1e6⍴A` would probably need to create a whole new A.
2023-09-13 01:22:45 <xelxebar    > I wonder if it should be turned on its head. Probably easier to emulate a stack as an APL array than the other way around.
2023-09-13 01:23:58 <xelxebar    > Should we, instead, be thinking how bootstrap an APL minimalistically a la Forth spirit?
2023-09-13 06:36:46 <KipIngram   > I'm not talking about the data - talking about the header.
2023-09-13 06:37:43 <KipIngram   > I'll need some kind of "management of RAM I'm sure.
2023-09-13 06:38:16 <KipIngram   > I was talking there just about the name.
2023-09-13 06:38:51 <KipIngram   > I feel sure I'll need a heap of some kind.
2023-09-13 06:44:04 <Zarutian_iPad> a heap of trouble?
2023-09-13 07:00:24 <KipIngram   > Heh.  Yeah, likely.  :-)
2023-09-13 07:01:46 <KipIngram   > Anyway, I think being "type aware" and having the kind of dynamics I expect from a scientific computing facility will require a heap, and the stack will only ever contain pointers into the heap.  And likely named variables will also only hold pointers.
2023-09-13 07:02:55 <KipIngram   > You wouldn't technically have to handle integers that way - they could still be "native" integers, but my guess is that a totally consistent approach over all data types will be desirable.
2023-09-13 07:08:37 <rendar      > historically Forth used kebab-case or lisp-case? e.g. `1 2 3 my-word` ?
2023-09-13 07:21:13 <veltas      > Yeah
2023-09-13 07:21:41 <veltas      > KipIngram: I suppose I'm not a novice but I'm not an oldie or an expert
2023-09-13 07:22:19 <veltas      > Part of reason I seem more knowledgeable is because Forth is simple and approachable
2023-09-13 10:06:16 <KipIngram   > rendar: I don't really associate that sort of "case discussion" with Forth very much.  The main naming advice I've seen is "try to choose names that lead you to a 'lexicon' for your application."
2023-09-13 10:06:42 <KipIngram   > Running your application should be almost like "talking about the application."
2023-09-13 10:06:56 <KipIngram   > So you'd use words that were already familiar in that particular area and so on.
2023-09-13 10:07:10 <KipIngram   > Make the application seem intuitive to people familiar with the field.
2023-09-13 10:07:43 <KipIngram   > Personally I tend toward short names, all lower case, and often feature symbols.
2023-09-13 10:08:12 <KipIngram   > I like an almost mathematical notation.
2023-09-13 10:08:31 <rendar      > KipIngram, yeah i agree
2023-09-13 10:09:08 <KipIngram   > So I'm still watching Wildberger videos.  He's going through Bernoulli's approach to summing powers, which has use in evaluating slowly converging power series and so on.
2023-09-13 10:09:21 <KipIngram   > It feels like another topic that "should be taught routinely and isn't."
2023-09-13 10:09:34 <KipIngram   > I've really begun to notice how "minimalist" our public education has become.
2023-09-13 10:09:43 <KipIngram   > They just set a really, really low bar.
2023-09-13 10:09:56 <vms14       > https://i.imgur.io/mKyVTnL_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
2023-09-13 10:10:01 <vms14       > ahahahahaha
2023-09-13 10:10:37 <KipIngram   > My cat is nice too.
2023-09-13 10:11:28 <vms14       > i did not know my lang supported emojis
2023-09-13 10:11:33 <KipIngram   > We have two cats and two dogs, and I like all of them, but I'm just particularly sweet on one of the cats.
2023-09-13 10:11:42 <vms14       > :o
2023-09-13 10:11:47 <vms14       > i want a cat
2023-09-13 10:11:53 <KipIngram   > Cats are awesome.
2023-09-13 10:12:30 <KipIngram   > He had a whole pile of medical difficulties his first couple of years - I think taking care of him through all that made me feel more strongly toward him.
2023-09-13 10:12:49 <vms14       > note how the word redefinition affects other words btw
2023-09-13 10:13:31 <KipIngram   > And the story of how we got him is really good.  My wife found him on the neighborhood Facebook page.  A guy who works in downtown Houston (like 30 - 40 minutes away) left work one day and headed home on the interstate.
2023-09-13 10:13:34 <KipIngram   > It was winter.
2023-09-13 10:13:46 <KipIngram   > After a few minutes he started to hear mewling / screaming.
2023-09-13 10:13:58 <vms14       > 💦 returned a list, but later was redefined to return 1 2 3
2023-09-13 10:14:02 <KipIngram   > The kitten had crawled up into his truck engine, no doubt because it was warm.
2023-09-13 10:14:09 <KipIngram   > and was still there when the guy started driving.
2023-09-13 10:14:18 <KipIngram   > It's a miracle he survived it.
2023-09-13 10:14:29 <vms14       > oh did not change it's definition, but just uses the last definition as the other no longer exists
2023-09-13 10:14:32 <KipIngram   > Anyway, it got hot and he started to cry - his little foot pads were burned etc.
2023-09-13 10:14:45 <KipIngram   > We took him in, and he's been terrific.
2023-09-13 10:14:48 <KipIngram   > Apollo.
2023-09-13 10:15:16 <KipIngram   > He's almost four.
2023-09-13 10:15:24 <vms14       > it's a bit sad actually
2023-09-13 10:16:02 <vms14       > that's why you say you are sweet with this one
2023-09-13 10:16:15 <KipIngram   > Anyway, the other education thing this made me think of was dimensional analysis, which just really isn't taught SERIOUSLY in engineering curricula anymore.
2023-09-13 10:16:33 <KipIngram   > The may mention it, but what they're talking about is in no way as sophisticated as the subject gets.
2023-09-13 10:16:55 <KipIngram   > I found a good paper on it one day and all while reading it I was just thinking WHY DO THEY NOT TEACH THIS?????
2023-09-13 10:17:24 <KipIngram   > It's almost as though the attitude is "If we can find a way to avoid it, we will."
2023-09-13 10:21:13 <vms14       > i wouldn't expect too much from university
2023-09-13 10:26:53 <KipIngram   > I think there's an aversion these days to having "differences" show between the best and worst students.   They want a "homogeneity."
2023-09-13 10:31:45 <vms14       > i wonder about representing statements as objects
2023-09-13 10:31:58 <vms14       > like you have a loop object
2023-09-13 10:32:09 <vms14       > or iterator object
2023-09-13 10:40:18 <KipIngram   > That HP RPL lets you store code strings in variables.
2023-09-13 10:40:34 <KipIngram   > In fact that seems to be its primary way of storing code.
2023-09-13 10:50:31 <vms14       > i use lists as code
2023-09-13 10:50:43 <vms14       > like a colon word
2023-09-13 10:51:10 <vms14       > i'm wondering lately if making ( execute actual lisp code
2023-09-13 10:51:34 <vms14       > i could have a way to get an element from the stack
2023-09-13 10:51:55 <vms14       > and it would use the same environments so variables would be available there
2023-09-13 10:52:40 <vms14       > i always wanted to have a word like 'lisp' that takes a list and executes it as lisp code
2023-09-13 10:53:06 <vms14       > but optional arguments and alike make it a bit hard to blend with a stack based lang
2023-09-13 10:53:14 <vms14       > well it's not
2023-09-13 10:53:39 <vms14       > a lot of languages use a stack internally
2023-09-13 11:05:39 <veltas      > KipIngram: This is a thing I've heard of before, cats crawling into enginers
2023-09-13 11:05:44 <veltas      > engines*
2023-09-13 11:05:53 <veltas      > Apparently if you park with wheels straight they can't get in (as easy)
2023-09-13 12:07:42 <KipIngram   > Interesting.   Anyway, that guy's family didn't feel like they could add a cat, so they posted and my wife just saw him and decided we needed him.  We had just lost our family dog a few months before - she first said "No more pets," but I think by the time of these events she'd gotten through part of the mourning process.
2023-09-13 12:09:49 <thrig       > cats aren't pets, they have staff
2023-09-13 12:14:50 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-09-13 12:14:55 <KipIngram   > Or maybe we're their pets.
2023-09-13 12:15:04 <KipIngram   > They graciously share their home with us.
2023-09-13 12:15:26 <KipIngram   > My wife read me a joke once.  I probably won't get it quite right, but it ran like this:
2023-09-13 12:16:14 <KipIngram   > Dog: "They feed me.  They take care of me.  They play with me.  They must be gods."  Cat: "They feed me.  They take care of me.  They play with me.  I must be a god."
2023-09-13 17:43:16 <xelxebar    > Oooo. Dimensional analysis. It dawned on me not too long ago that it's essentially a kind of type inference.
2023-09-13 17:44:19 <xelxebar    > I read about someone who, brilliantly, goes a step farther and elaborates beyond the standard types/units.
2023-09-13 17:56:28 <rendar      > so i guess that also words like "ispos?" "isnan?" ">0" "isnil?" should consume the value and put a bool in the stack, right?
2023-09-13 18:00:13 <thrig       > 0 or -1 traditionally
2023-09-13 18:06:17 <KipIngram   > I mean, lots of my professors stressed the importance of checking unis, using units working out as a way of having confidence in your answer, and that kind of thing.  Before finding that paper I'd have told you that's what dimensional analysis *was*.  But it turns out that hardly scratches the surface.
2023-09-13 18:06:52 <KipIngram   > You can simplify the numerical complexity of a problem (for simulation purposes and what not) by systematically reformulating in terms of dimensionless parameters, etc.  I was just blown away.
2023-09-13 18:08:18 <KipIngram   > xelxebar: You ever hear of bond graphs?
2023-09-13 18:42:55 <xelxebar    > Never heard of them! Related at all to dimensional analysis?
2023-09-13 18:58:52 <thrig       > super dimensional analysis, meanwhile, looks into the properties of Macross fortresses
2023-09-13 19:46:22 <KipIngram   > Not specifically, but... a little.  bond graphs are "domain independent" method for expressing the dynamical equations of a system.  They're particularly good when you have pieces in a system from different areas of technology, like electrical circuit mixed with pneumatics mixed with mechanical stuff etc.
2023-09-13 19:47:02 <KipIngram   > The idea is that you don't have voltage and current, force and motion, etc.  You have "through variables" and "across variables."  Through*across is always power, regardless of the underlying tech.
2023-09-13 19:47:37 <KipIngram   > It's really just the usual business of writing down differential equations from a model of a system, just with care given to not 'focus in' on a particular type of system.
2023-09-13 19:48:02 <KipIngram   > The dimensional analysis discussion made me think of it, since it's a sort of "specific units independent" thing.
2023-09-13 19:48:58 <KipIngram   > Voltage is an across variable, so is pressure.  Current is a through variable, so is flow rate.
2023-09-13 19:49:42 <KipIngram   > I've never actually done much with it, but I learned about it from a colleague in the UT Austin research lab I worked in in the early 1990's.
2023-09-13 19:50:08 <KipIngram   > I just always thought it seemed like a cool idea.
2023-09-13 20:30:42 <xelxebar    > Wait. You're located in Texas? I grew up in Corpus Christi.
2023-09-13 20:51:54 <KipIngram   > Oh, cool.
2023-09-13 20:52:24 <KipIngram   > Yes, I live a bit west of the metro Houston area.  Technically in a little town called Fulshear, but the other nearby small town Katy is a lot more well known.
2023-09-13 20:52:40 <KipIngram   > I lived in Austin from 1981 through 1996.
2023-09-13 20:53:00 <KipIngram   > Went there in 1981 to go to school.
2023-09-13 20:53:06 <KipIngram   > I grew up in Alabama.
2023-09-13 20:57:41 <KipIngram   > It's been several years since I've been down to Corpus.
2023-09-13 20:58:01 <KipIngram   > Long enough drive to "notice," you know?
2023-09-13 20:59:15 <KipIngram   > Ugh.  You know, I actually do see Norman Wildberger's points re: his concerns about irrationals.  But some aspects of it seems overly pedantic to me.
2023-09-13 21:00:02 <KipIngram   > He takes hte position that not just ANY quadratic ax^2 + bx + c = 0 can be factored into (x-r1)(x-r2)=0 form, because r1 and r2 don't necessarily exist (i.e., if they're irrational).
2023-09-13 21:00:17 <KipIngram   > But... I can get as close them as I want to, without limit.
2023-09-13 21:01:03 <KipIngram   > I think he should just propose that we replace ax^2+bx+c=0 with |ax^2+bx+c|<epsilon, with epsilon specified to suit the application at hand.
2023-09-13 21:01:16 <KipIngram   > Because you can ALWAYS find rational solutions that satisfy that.
2023-09-13 21:01:47 <KipIngram   > That makes it a completely rigorous problem AND still leaves you able to find solutions to any equation.
2023-09-13 21:04:12 <KipIngram   > I mean, that's basically how we approach it anyway.  Because if r1 and r2 are irratoinal then you never write them down and you never store them in your computer's RAM.
2023-09-13 21:04:25 <KipIngram   > We're "effectively" solving the epsilon problem as it is.
2023-09-13 21:04:51 <KipIngram   > So this would just be saying "state the problem the way we actually can solve it."  Instead of leaving to just kind of hum and look the other way.
2023-09-13 21:05:02 <KipIngram   > leaving "us"
2023-09-13 21:13:17 <MrMobius    > is there a common forth word to select from two values?
2023-09-13 21:13:40 <MrMobius    > : FOO IF SWAP THEN DROP ;
2023-09-13 21:25:15 <crc         > MrMobius: in 2016, Zarutian suggested a :? word:  : :? ( conseq altern bool ) NOT IF SWAP THEN DROP ;
2023-09-13 21:26:15 <crc         > that's the only thing I see in the logs matching this
2023-09-13 21:29:15 <KipIngram   > MAX and MIN usually are around as special cases of that.
2023-09-13 21:30:59 <KipIngram   > That seems like something easy to do if you code a word that "contains" your criterion.  Somehow passing a generic criterion in to a general purpose word seems harder.
2023-09-13 21:36:03 <KipIngram   > Oh, I switched my phone's calculator ap from WP34S to Plus42.
2023-09-13 21:36:44 <KipIngram   > https://www.thomasokken.com/plus42/images/plus42-iphone.png
2023-09-13 22:17:53 <xelxebar    > KipIngram: Dang. My parents now live in Huntsville, which sounds like it mike be close to you.
2023-09-13 22:30:22 <KipIngram   > Yes, Huntsville is an hour or so north on I45.  One of my daughters went to college there.
2023-09-13 22:30:59 <KipIngram   > She's in grad school in North Carolina now.
2023-09-13 23:16:31 <xelxebar    > That's nuts. My mom worked for Sam Houston for 10+ years in admissions. Not unlikely that your daughter spoke with her.
2023-09-13 23:19:03 <thrig       > small something something world something after all