2023-10-07 04:37:22 <veltas      > I'm convinced celebrities see naming their kids as an *epic troll opportunity* and we're just not in on the gag
2023-10-07 09:48:50 <KipIngram   > I wouldn't particularly disagree with that.  I think there's just a subset of people who are more inerested in attracting attention than anything else.  Outlandishly naming your paparazzi-targeted kids is a way to do it, apparently.
2023-10-07 09:51:11 <KipIngram   > s/inerested/interested/
2023-10-07 14:57:52 <veltas      > IS FORTH HERE ?  IF FORTH IS HERE , THEN I FIND CELLS WITHIN BLOCKS , UNTIL WORDS INVERT AGAIN .
2023-10-07 15:02:52 <KipIngram   > Anybody got any good links to working with SDL2 on Linux directly from nasm?
2023-10-07 15:03:02 <KipIngram   > I.e., avoiding the C standard library.
2023-10-07 15:03:47 <KipIngram   > Won't be able to avoid the SDL2 libraries/etc., but I'd like to limit the library usage to that.  Most of the docs I find out there seem oriented toward either C or Python.
2023-10-07 15:04:21 <KipIngram   > It would be nice to find a nasm project where someone had worked up all the include files and so on.
2023-10-07 15:06:06 <KipIngram   > Been thinking today about how this thing I'm trying to build will actually get used someday.  In most cases I can think of where I'm running the system on some external gadget, I'll still be doing my console interface to it via my notebook.
2023-10-07 15:06:32 <KipIngram   > So I'm wanting to structure it as a distributed system - same Forth running on the notebook and the gadget.
2023-10-07 15:06:54 <KipIngram   > And I expect that to be a binary compatibility at the vm emulation layer.
2023-10-07 15:07:17 <KipIngram   > But I want threads to be able to communicate with one another in a uniform way regardless of which physical system they happen to be running on.
2023-10-07 15:07:38 <KipIngram   > So that pipe interface will potentially be cross-system.
2023-10-07 15:13:53 <veltas      > glibc needs to run for it to work. Or whatever std lib it was built with
2023-10-07 15:15:07 <veltas      > Otherwise using from nasm you need to build linking to the dynamic linker
2023-10-07 15:15:26 <veltas      > I'd explain more but my wife's stolen my arm
2023-10-07 15:20:36 <KipIngram   > :-)
2023-10-07 15:20:51 <KipIngram   > That's not factually correct - she owns your arm.  ;-)
2023-10-07 15:21:04 <KipIngram   > Wives get issued special passes.
2023-10-07 15:21:18 <KipIngram   > Resistance is futile.
2023-10-07 15:22:00 <KipIngram   > That's very annoying - how things are rigged so that you just have to haul in one library after another after another.
2023-10-07 15:22:59 <KipIngram   > So I guess what I'm REALLY hoping for then is to find someone's work where they've already done the labor of cutting that SDL2 / libc umbilical.
2023-10-07 15:32:40 <KipIngram   > The way I think I want one of these console sessions to work is just like the APL interface works, except I'm considering not allowing the cursor to stop on lines that were "output" lines - it would just navigate over the lines that had been input lines.
2023-10-07 15:33:14 <KipIngram   > Although, it does occur to me that it's possible I might want to run a command to create an output line that I then wanted to run.
2023-10-07 15:33:28 <crc         > SDL2 drags in a lot. On my OpenBSD machine, it building a small project using just a handful of SDL routines drags in libSDL2, libc, libm, libsndio, libsamplerate, libX11, libxcb, libXext, libXcursor, libXrender, libXfixes, libXi, libXrandr, libXss, libusbhid, libpthread, libXau, and libXdmcp.
2023-10-07 15:35:34 <GeDaMo      > https://github.com/floooh/sokol is a header-only library for graphics
2023-10-07 15:39:16 <veltas      > And you 'need' all that to do input, sound, display, threads, and font display. I think SDL2 is quite good for its niche
2023-10-07 15:39:50 <veltas      > If you want to bypass C standard library you need to implement that stuff and go direct to the kernel on everything
2023-10-07 15:40:08 <crc         > http://sprunge.us/1UkDpp is the list of SDL2 functions used in my code
2023-10-07 15:41:19 <KipIngram   > https://floooh.github.io/tiny8bit/
2023-10-07 15:41:52 <KipIngram   > Yes, I go directly to syscalls for everything in my current system.
2023-10-07 15:42:06 <KipIngram   > Nothing at all but my nasm source needed to build that.
2023-10-07 15:43:14 <veltas      > crc: You could probably do a build which pulls in a lot less then
2023-10-07 15:43:16 <veltas      > build/fork
2023-10-07 15:43:37 <veltas      > Have you considered going to X interface directly?
2023-10-07 15:43:50 <veltas      > I've heard the X interface is horrible
2023-10-07 15:44:19 <crc         > Moving to using X directly is planned
2023-10-07 15:44:29 <KipIngram   > Well, I want to cover the case where I'm building something completely stand-alone.  So whatever I wind up going with, I want a wrapper around that will create a portable interface.
2023-10-07 15:44:53 <KipIngram   > On a stand-alone system I'd have to write all of it, to cover whatever display device I'd integrated into that particular project.
2023-10-07 15:45:04 <veltas      > I know what might appeal KipIngram
2023-10-07 15:45:21 <veltas      > Have a server for these commands, communicate via pipes or sockets
2023-10-07 15:45:29 <veltas      > All the C stuff is totally cut off then
2023-10-07 15:45:38 <veltas      > You don't need C standard library in your runtime
2023-10-07 15:45:40 <veltas      > Just the server
2023-10-07 15:46:06 <veltas      > And you can generate a portable 'language' for all this and implement that on each system
2023-10-07 15:46:11 <KipIngram   > Well, right - most of the time my "server" will be my notebook, but I'd like for it to be running the Forth as well - like they're two nodes in a distributed system.
2023-10-07 15:46:15 <veltas      > You might even use a block interface
2023-10-07 15:46:24 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-10-07 15:46:30 <veltas      > That's kind of a cool idea actually, I might steal it from myself
2023-10-07 15:46:36 <KipIngram   > I'd like the gadget to be able to open blocks residing on the notebook.
2023-10-07 15:47:07 <GeDaMo      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat
2023-10-07 15:47:24 <veltas      > I'm saying maybe you can have some 'server' you communicate with via a block interface, and that server has all the C/whatever code for each platform
2023-10-07 15:48:13 <KipIngram   > Yes, it's just that I was wanting to write that server in Forth too.
2023-10-07 15:50:20 <veltas      > Either you write everything in Forth or you do this and the server is whatever's convenient today right now on your hardware
2023-10-07 15:50:30 <veltas      > And at the end of the day Forth was meant to make things easier
2023-10-07 15:51:31 <veltas      > Personally I'm happy having C and its standard library run alongside Forth code
2023-10-07 15:51:38 <veltas      > On a desktop anyway
2023-10-07 15:53:32 <veltas      > KipIngram: You might use some shared memory map to communicate, almost like simulating registers
2023-10-07 15:54:02 <veltas      > Then in Forth's virtual address space you don't need any C standard library
2023-10-07 15:54:43 <veltas      > That could be quite cool, you can simulate some simpler video/etc devices using shared memory
2023-10-07 15:55:03 <veltas      > And then use the same Forth code on a baremetal system with the real devices
2023-10-07 19:09:44 <KipIngram   > I guess the intensity of my desire to avoid unnecessary libraries isn't evident.  I haven't even learned what the labor quoteient of pursuing such a solution would be.
2023-10-07 19:10:36 <thrig       > would something sdl-like like raylib have less deps?
2023-10-07 19:11:06 <KipIngram   > Maybe.  SDL2 is just "the thing I've run across."
2023-10-07 19:15:44 <crc         > if using linux and don't need to run under X or Wayland, you might be able to get by with directly using a framebuffer device (/dev/fb0) if your kernel & hardware support it.
2023-10-07 19:18:26 <KipIngram   > My OS uses Wayland.
2023-10-07 19:18:49 <KipIngram   > i've tried to make frame buffers work, but it seems to be a no go on my machine.
2023-10-07 19:21:20 <crc         > I have no experience running under Wayland (my only graphics capable machines are a Windows system at work, a macOS system, and OpenBSD w/X11)
2023-10-07 19:22:04 <KipIngram   > thrig: raylib certainly looks like it was trying for minimality.