2024-11-22 07:50:53 <lilo_booter > xentrac: yeah - when i install the gforth snap, i can use this (sorta) :noname ." >>> " ; is prompt
2024-11-22 07:51:26 <lilo_booter > annoyingly it still puts the cr in though - i don't understand i can't have a sane prompt :D
2024-11-22 07:53:44 <lilo_booter > s/understand/understand why/
2024-11-22 08:20:52 <vms14       > found a random game in forth
2024-11-22 08:20:53 <vms14       > https://asciinema.org/a/672405
2024-11-22 08:21:18 <vms14       > quite simple, but reminds me I do not really need curses for anything since gforth's key word works properly
2024-11-22 08:23:13 <vms14       > still I like to have mvaddch already defined xd
2024-11-22 08:24:49 <vms14       > the animation at the end is cool
2024-11-22 08:25:14 <lilo_booter > heh - i was planning to write a game of snake with the terminal stuff i'm using for graph plotting
2024-11-22 08:27:39 <vms14       > lilo_booter I made a snake game in forth not too much ago
2024-11-22 08:27:57 <vms14       > your prize for winning was an error xd
2024-11-22 08:28:07 <lilo_booter > :)
2024-11-22 08:28:27 <vms14       > is the only program I ever wrote in forth, I used curses bindings with gforth
2024-11-22 08:28:47 <vms14       > sad that it takes a bit of time to start because is generating code compiling and linking
2024-11-22 08:28:52 <vms14       > but it worked
2024-11-22 08:29:08 <vms14       > do not have the code anymore, it sucked mostly
2024-11-22 08:29:32 <lilo_booter > cool - i'd definitely avoid dragging in curses to do it though
2024-11-22 08:29:38 <vms14       > but I liked one word I made to increment a number in a circular way
2024-11-22 08:29:48 <vms14       > you can do as this guy does in the link I just posted
2024-11-22 08:31:00 <vms14       > he creates his own mvaddch and everything else
2024-11-22 08:31:00 <vms14       > not really getting how, but he seems to do it
2024-11-22 08:33:19 <lilo_booter > not sure what put and color? are here (can take a guess at col and row though)
2024-11-22 08:34:31 <lilo_booter > would be nice if he used a ( ... -- ... ) so at least you get an idea of what input and output is
2024-11-22 08:37:12 <vms14       > http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/wmaze.fs
2024-11-22 08:38:13 <vms14       > mvaddch takes char x y
2024-11-22 08:38:19 <vms14       > or y x
2024-11-22 08:38:21 <lilo_booter > nice - thanks :)
2024-11-22 08:38:36 <vms14       > is mimicking the curses function
2024-11-22 08:40:13 <lilo_booter > yeah - he's doing the same as me - : csi 27 emit ." [" ; <- standard ansi terminal 'control sequence introducer'
2024-11-22 08:40:42 <lilo_booter > https://gist.github.com/fnky/458719343aabd01cfb17a3a4f7296797
2024-11-22 08:54:47 <vms14       > I should do the same actually
2024-11-22 10:30:58 <veltas      > zelgomer: It's tradition in ##forth to send untested code that needs like 3 iterations before it runs right
2024-11-22 10:33:37 <veltas      > lilo_booter: Traditionally Forth has a slightly weird prompt, gforth is doing what all classic Forths do
2024-11-22 10:35:06 <veltas      > I had a little browse through the ChipWits Forth code and saw blocks full of bitmaps written in binary
2024-11-22 10:35:30 <veltas      > And it hit me how inefficient this data usage is
2024-11-22 10:35:52 <veltas      > It make me want to write some code for converting e.g. bitmaps into a compact format for storage, and code for converting to/from a textual representation for editing purposes
2024-11-22 10:36:08 <veltas      > But I think they just decided to buy more floppies to store it on!
2024-11-22 10:36:38 <veltas      > Which is legit, I just like creating problems
2024-11-22 11:14:24 <lilo_booter > veltas: it really irks me in a completely irrational way - the default can be whatever, but really, i should be able to overrule it - in my own toy language, my repl is just: ss-clone begin $ "> " prompt ss-eval stdin-eof until prompt-end drop
2024-11-22 11:16:56 <lilo_booter > ss-clone creates a 'substack' being an exact copy of the grammar - this is put at the top of the stack - <ss> <string> ss-eval evaluates string on the substack - prompt-end normally just puts a cr or nothing, depending on what is used in parse
2024-11-22 11:16:56 <veltas      > It is easy at least to change int.fs and rebuild
2024-11-22 11:17:26 <veltas      > It's standard for all Forths, open-source and proprietary, to have the source and ability to rebuild
2024-11-22 11:17:30 <lilo_booter > locally, yes, but distribution ain't so good
2024-11-22 11:17:58 <lilo_booter > what's the license on init.fs? gpl v3?
2024-11-22 11:18:04 <veltas      > Yes
2024-11-22 11:18:16 <veltas      > I think if you want to target a Forth that comes 'standard' on normal platforms you're shooting yourself in the foot
2024-11-22 11:18:16 <lilo_booter > yeah - no way i'd touch that :)
2024-11-22 11:18:44 <veltas      > Hopefully I get my Forth in a good state and you can use an ANS Forth that's permissive
2024-11-22 11:19:16 <lilo_booter > i'm happy to write code specifically for gforth - that code i will license how i please so others can customise it for another forth if they wish
2024-11-22 11:20:23 <lilo_booter > gpl v3 excludes that
2024-11-22 11:24:09 <lilo_booter > as long i don't include anything direct from gforth itself, i'll be fine - will live with the warts if necessary, but this prompt thing does irk me intensely - probably an indication of me being adhd or something :)
2024-11-22 11:25:37 <lilo_booter > if you have a forth available for me to try, i'd quite happily give it a whirl :)
2024-11-22 11:31:45 <veltas      > It's in progress
2024-11-22 11:32:16 <lilo_booter > written in assembly?
2024-11-22 12:50:54 <veltas      > I'm starting in nasm for Linux AMD64, aim is to be portable though
2024-11-22 12:50:54 <veltas      > And to do a cross forth etc
2024-11-22 12:51:35 <veltas      > So yes assembly
2024-11-22 13:03:17 <lilo_booter > sounds good
2024-11-22 13:05:40 <veltas      > Baby steps
2024-11-22 15:08:33 <KipIngram   > veltas: nasm has an excellent macro facility you can use to build your dictionary internally.
2024-11-22 15:08:49 <KipIngram   > I've got some macros I can share with you if you're interested.
2024-11-22 15:09:13 <KipIngram   > I'm sure you could write them too, and you'll probably want a different structure from me.
2024-11-22 15:09:47 <KipIngram   > But it did take at least some time to figuer it all out.  :-)
2024-11-22 15:11:42 <veltas      > I'm currently using nasm macros for dictionary headers, variables, constants, inline code, etc
2024-11-22 15:11:52 <veltas      > And likewise yes it took me some time to figure it out!
2024-11-22 15:12:51 <veltas      > If you share what you've done I'll look, can't hurt
2024-11-22 15:13:32 <veltas      > Otherwise you can comment on my code when I make it public in a half-baked form soon, just want to finish converting old 32-bit code to 64-bit relocatable code
2024-11-22 15:16:39 <KipIngram   > Ok, they're here:
2024-11-22 15:16:41 <KipIngram   > https://pastebin.com/r5BXgqdv
2024-11-22 15:17:19 <KipIngram   > The 2 and 3 parameter counts on some of the duplicate names allow me to supply a third parameter COVERT that will set the "wipe" bit I use to know which headers to unlink when I wipe.
2024-11-22 15:17:33 <KipIngram   > So that's for words that won't be called but were just needed as helpers during compilation.
2024-11-22 15:18:17 <KipIngram   > Generally each one is used as <macro> <name string> <name label> [COVERT]
2024-11-22 15:18:44 <KipIngram   > Different sorts for different kinds of words.
2024-11-22 15:19:17 <veltas      > I can see some stuff I'll definitely poach
2024-11-22 15:19:23 <veltas      > Thanks for sharing
2024-11-22 15:19:26 <KipIngram   > Have at it.  :-)
2024-11-22 15:19:28 <KipIngram   > You bet.
2024-11-22 15:19:32 <KipIngram   > Good luck with your design!
2024-11-22 15:19:40 <veltas      > %strlen is news to me
2024-11-22 15:19:56 <KipIngram   > I really need to get back to this; it's been ages since I've seriously worked on it.  Lots of think - no do.  :-(
2024-11-22 15:20:23 <KipIngram   > Life excels at coming up with things to take up my attention.
2024-11-22 15:20:34 <veltas      > Yeah no kidding
2024-11-22 15:21:11 <veltas      > Advantage of writing a Forth is that it doesn't actually take a lot of time!
2024-11-22 15:21:13 <KipIngram   > Most of the summer got snatched by that pool controller work.  But that's done and working now, and we're finally getting some cool weather I can use to calibrate the air temp sensor.
2024-11-22 15:21:22 <veltas      > Nice
2024-11-22 15:22:27 <KipIngram   > I did get that sensor moves.  It was initially hanging right under the equipment cabinet, and I realized that thing is a small heater - you could feel that the air around it was warmer than the air further away.
2024-11-22 15:22:35 <KipIngram   > I moved the sensor around the corner of the house.
2024-11-22 15:23:41 <KipIngram   > Got it tucked between the house and a planter, hanging in mid-air where the sun won't ever shine directly on it.
2024-11-22 15:24:21 <KipIngram   > The house itself may emit some heat, I guess, but I don't have any good place to put it out in the middle of the yard.
2024-11-22 15:24:52 <KipIngram   > I'll just pay attention to the weather data online and learn if there's a systematic difference.
2024-11-22 15:25:00 <KipIngram   > That matters.
2024-11-22 15:26:10 <KipIngram   > There's a standard model for those things - it's a cubic equation with independent variable being log of resistance and dependent variable being reciprocal of Kelvin temperature.
2024-11-22 15:26:54 <KipIngram   > They claim it works well all the way from sub-zero temps to 250-300 C, which is a heck of lot more than I will need.
2024-11-22 15:28:17 <veltas      > I doubt the house will impact too much
2024-11-22 15:28:21 <veltas      > Exposed in the elements
2024-11-22 15:29:25 <veltas      > I upgraded my thermostat recently and there is a potential project in there to get my boiler and controller to talk over their respective digital buses
2024-11-22 15:29:46 <veltas      > But for now they're using the dumb relay mode and that's fine
2024-11-22 15:30:58 <KipIngram   > Yeah, good enough is good enough.
2024-11-22 15:30:58 <veltas      > Because my boiler uses some proprietary thing my thermostat doesn't understand
2024-11-22 15:31:08 <veltas      > My thermostat wants to use OpenTherm, which I contacted for a copy of their spec, and they were quite surprised I wanted it as a consumer
2024-11-22 15:31:27 <KipIngram   > I think the folks that hang out here are definitely not your "typical consumer."
2024-11-22 15:31:29 <veltas      > I don't know why it's not just on their website as a download, if it's an 'open' standard
2024-11-22 15:32:31 <veltas      > It's basically just based on the one-wire bus
2024-11-22 15:32:43 <veltas      > Although they don't mention that anywhere in their spec
2024-11-22 19:38:41 <xentrac     > what are you doing for vacation?
2024-11-22 19:38:59 <xentrac     > assuming Putin doesn't nuke you first of course
2024-11-22 20:32:01 <veltas      > Not sure who you're asking but this weekend there's missile threats and a bad weather alert for my journey down to my family
2024-11-22 20:32:19 <veltas      > First time we've been on a long trip since my child was born so that will be fun, lots of stops along way
2024-11-22 20:33:05 <veltas      > Low chance of anything happening, I guess I'm desensitised now until it actually happens
2024-11-22 20:35:50 <dlowe       > I think that's pretty much everyone for the past 80 years or so
2024-11-22 20:37:21 <veltas      > Checks out
2024-11-22 20:39:14 <veltas      > GeDaMo: Did you look at the code for ChipWits?
2024-11-22 20:39:57 <veltas      > Or anyone here actually, it's not like I assigned it to GeDaMo on Jira and will be raising it to their manager tomorrow after the standup
2024-11-22 20:40:04 <GeDaMo      > Not yet
2024-11-22 20:41:09 <GeDaMo      > I'm not familiar with the game, I just thought it might be of interest
2024-11-22 20:42:45 <veltas      > Yeah me neither
2024-11-22 20:43:04 <veltas      > I read it a bit and there's a lot of sprites done as bitmaps, specified like binary 1010101
2024-11-22 20:43:22 <veltas      > And it made me think that it's interesting it's stored in such an inefficient format, over so many floppies
2024-11-22 20:43:34 <veltas      > But it sounds like they still had a very cheap dev environment for the time!
2024-11-22 20:43:47 <veltas      > Blocked based Forth obviously
2024-11-22 20:43:51 <veltas      > Block*
2024-11-22 20:45:01 <vms14       > xentrac didn't know it was you :0
2024-11-22 20:45:06 <xentrac     > theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklr0UD9eSo
2024-11-22 20:45:24 <vms14       > ( that maze game)
2024-11-22 20:45:26 <GeDaMo      > Was the source included with the game? Or was it used to generate a binary?
2024-11-22 20:45:29 <xentrac     > vms14: yeah, we were discussing it a lot on the channel at the time.  unjust made a version of his own
2024-11-22 20:46:45 <xentrac     > veltas: I hope you have a great trip!  are you traveling by car and staying in hotels, or is it more an RV kind of trip?
2024-11-22 20:46:58 <veltas      > Car and will do it in a day
2024-11-22 20:47:34 <veltas      > Only like 6 hours but feels like a big deal in my head
2024-11-22 20:49:51 <xentrac     > oh, I read "lots of stops" as "lots of overnight stays" :)
2024-11-22 20:50:59 <veltas      > Yeah I'm in the UK :P
2024-11-22 20:52:57 <xentrac     > haha
2024-11-22 20:53:38 <xentrac     > I guess that would make it hard to go on an actually long trip to visit your family unless they've retired to Spain or something
2024-11-22 20:54:19 <xentrac     > what happened to British retirees living in Spain after Brexit, btw?  I'm sure there were some
2024-11-22 20:54:44 <veltas      > I don't happen to know
2024-11-22 20:55:08 <vms14       > why spain?
2024-11-22 20:55:13 <veltas      > I guess they had to choose whether to stay or return to UK before it was launched into orbit
2024-11-22 20:55:19 <GeDaMo      > It was possible for them to apply for citizenship or leave to remain but some didn't and just complained about it to the tabloids :|
2024-11-22 20:56:59 <xentrac     > Spain because it's about as far as you can get from any point in the UK and still be in the EU
2024-11-22 20:57:17 <xentrac     > (unless you count Gibraltar I guess, in which case it's not far at all)
2024-11-22 20:57:29 <xentrac     > just thinking about long trips
2024-11-22 20:57:48 <veltas      > I can confirm I'm not starting from Gibraltar
2024-11-22 20:57:50 <xentrac     > my sister and her husband drove down to visit me and my wife after they got married
2024-11-22 20:58:01 <xentrac     > it took them 9 months
2024-11-22 20:58:36 <veltas      > :D ?
2024-11-22 20:58:51 <xentrac     > it was nice to see them but they were pretty tired
2024-11-22 20:58:58 <xentrac     > they made a YouTube series about their trip
2024-11-22 20:59:18 <veltas      > What were they driving?
2024-11-22 20:59:28 <veltas      > Sounds like it was driving them!
2024-11-22 21:00:04 <xentrac     > two motorcycles
2024-11-22 21:00:41 <xentrac     > that's my reference point for "a long trip" with "lots of stops" :)
2024-11-22 21:01:12 <veltas      > My late Grandfather and Grandmother went on a trip round the country to all the cathedrals on his motorbike
2024-11-22 21:01:26 <xentrac     > that sounds beautiful
2024-11-22 21:03:25 <veltas      > I'll have to ask my Mum about it while I'm down there
2024-11-22 21:03:33 <veltas      > I don't know too much about it
2024-11-22 21:04:36 <xentrac     > she might have boxes of Kodachrome slides to show you
2024-11-22 21:06:06 <veltas      > I'm all too aware, last I checked my room was full of boxes of photos and film
2024-11-22 21:06:17 <veltas      > What on earth are people meant to do with all this stuff
2024-11-22 21:09:25 <veltas      > Digitise I suppose
2024-11-22 21:11:28 <xentrac     > digitize, license CC-BY or CC0, and upload to Wikimedia Commons?
2024-11-22 21:12:07 <xentrac     > high-resolution photos of cathedrals and now-demolished buildings might be of interest
2024-11-22 21:19:50 <veltas      > Who owns the copyright for them now anyway
2024-11-22 21:20:02 <veltas      > Ugh I hate copyright law :)
2024-11-22 21:48:58 <xentrac     > whoever took the photos owns a copyright in them originally.  presumably that would be your grandfather and/or grandmother
2024-11-22 21:49:33 <veltas      > How can they take pictures if they're in them?
2024-11-22 21:49:58 <veltas      > If you hand your camera to a passer-by who owns the photo?
2024-11-22 21:49:59 <xentrac     > with a timer or a cable release
2024-11-22 21:50:02 <xentrac     > the passer-by
2024-11-22 21:50:54 <xentrac     > in some cases if someone owns a copyright in what they took a photo *of*, that copyright might also cover the photo, but the UK has a so-called "freedom of panorama" which exempts photos from possible copyrights on buildings and sculptural works, but not murals:
2024-11-22 21:52:45 <vms14       > depends on the terms of service you give to the passer-by when you ask him to use your camera
2024-11-22 21:52:47 <xentrac     > but if the passer-by took the photo, thus contributing whatever expressive elements appear in it (such as composition, angle, maybe lighting) the passer-by owns the copyright
2024-11-22 21:53:01 <xentrac     > at least I believe that's how UK copyright law works
2024-11-22 21:53:15 <vms14       > but he might prefer to run away and get a free camera
2024-11-22 21:53:18 <xentrac     > I might be unfairly extrapolating from my knowledge of US copyright law
2024-11-22 21:53:55 <vms14       > I was asked twice to make a photo to random people and always wonder why they are so confident trusting a random guy they just found
2024-11-22 21:54:13 <vms14       > maybe they noticed that I'm too lazy to run
2024-11-22 21:54:15 <vms14       > xd
2024-11-22 21:55:12 <vms14       > it's mainly that I did experience how you receive what you give I guess
2024-11-22 22:23:05 <vms14       >  I want to try with a spaceshooter, but I guess I'm going to try with my toy lang instead of forth
2024-11-22 22:23:20 <vms14       > yet might be interesting to try with both and see the difference
2024-11-22 22:27:00 <veltas      > Good idea
2024-11-22 23:53:49 <Zarutian_iPad> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42207304
2024-11-22 23:59:56 <KipIngram   > "weird little language"