2025-03-07 01:14:55 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  HELLO
2025-03-07 01:14:55 <ForthBot    > Bonjour mon amour !
2025-03-07 01:15:43 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  STRING  TEST
2025-03-07 01:15:56 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  " Ceci est un test "   TEST !
2025-03-07 01:16:19 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  TEST @ PRINT
2025-03-07 01:16:19 <ForthBot    > Ceci est un test
2025-03-07 01:31:16 <crc         > veltas: + should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation
2025-03-07 01:34:22 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  " + should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation " TEST !
2025-03-07 01:34:32 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  TEST @ PRINT
2025-03-07 01:34:32 <ForthBot    > + should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation
2025-03-07 01:59:43 <crc         > 
ACTION updates forth.chat/bots.txt to provide a quick mention of ForthBot and my future [bot]konilo

2025-03-07 02:00:52 <xentrac     > :-)
2025-03-07 02:12:26 <cleobuline  > https://github.com/cleobuline/some-c-sources/blob/main/forth_gmp_irc_bot.c
2025-03-07 02:17:23 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  STRING  SOURCE
2025-03-07 02:18:05 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  "  https://github.com/cleobuline/some-c-sources/blob/main/forth_gmp_irc_bot.c " SOURCE  !
2025-03-07 10:43:36 <veltas      > crc: Is the + there to link when you generate HTML?  Does it do anything in konilo itself?
2025-03-07 10:44:46 <veltas      > Quick poll everyone: vi or emacs controls?  Not the editor itself, just which keyboard controls do you prefer?
2025-03-07 12:13:44 <crc         > nothing in konilo itself, it's just part of how the manual browser identifies glossary entries as opposed to manual pages
2025-03-07 12:14:31 <crc         > given issues I have with multi key combinations being hard to type as a result of rsi, I'd lean towards vi type controls
2025-03-07 12:21:52 <veltas      > Do you still mostly use the line editor in konilo?
2025-03-07 12:28:49 <crc         > yes. I use the tuhi version of it (which redraws the display after each edit) some of the time, but mostly just the basic one in the konilo image.
2025-03-07 12:33:44 <veltas      > tuhi for modifying code and the basic one for writing?
2025-03-07 12:51:02 <xentrac     > veltas: Emacs, generally, except on a cellphone
2025-03-07 12:52:23 <xentrac     > I'm pretty comfortable with either as actual editors but if I'm using some kind of command line it's pretty annoying if some of the time b moves my cursor back a word instead of inserting a b
2025-03-07 12:54:00 <xentrac     > Kakoune's documentation makes the excellent point that in an editor most of the time you are editing or navigating, not entering text.  so it makes sense to optimize the interface to navigating and editing rather than typing
2025-03-07 12:54:34 <xentrac     > but there are other cases where that isn't true
2025-03-07 13:41:11 <crc         > veltas: mostly writing & editing with the basic editor; my main use of tuhi is for reading code (it's quick to flip through blocks, and I can toggle coloration if I want a quick visual overview of the structure)
2025-03-07 13:43:30 <crc         > the basic editor has advantages in not needing a DEC/ANSI terminal, so I can more easily use it on hosts lacking that (e.g., the current hardware prototype, the iOS application, or the classic Macintosh version)
2025-03-07 13:51:49 <crc         > There's also a 'rem' editor, which I sometimes use for fixes where I don't want to retype an entire line. That one has a movable cursor. I've only used it on rare occasions.
2025-03-07 13:54:53 <crc         > and the 'abe' editor my son & I are working on, which is for byte-level blocks (so four characters per memory cell)
2025-03-07 13:55:00 <crc         > this gives a 60 line x 64 chars/line block size (leaving the first line unpacked for compatibility with the standard assortment of tools for finding blocks by title)
2025-03-07 13:55:34 <crc         > it's modeled after tuhi
2025-03-07 14:27:18 <veltas      > 60 lines is quite tall
2025-03-07 14:27:34 <veltas      > Is that just the max, or does it always pack into that size?
2025-03-07 14:29:01 <veltas      > xentrac: A counter-point to that theory about prioritising navigation is that both reading and editing code requires keeping as sophisticated a mental model as possible, in the hardest coding tasks
2025-03-07 14:29:17 <veltas      > So you want to reduce the overhead and effort as much as possible in both cases, and make it as seamless as possible
2025-03-07 14:29:59 <veltas      > However how you best achieve that may well be subjective, I've found both emacs and vi to be effective, I just happen to use vim primarily
2025-03-07 14:30:55 <veltas      > Familiarity is a big legit factor
2025-03-07 14:44:57 <cleobuline  > ForthBot: SOURCE @ PRINT
2025-03-07 14:44:57 <ForthBot    >  https://github.com/cleobuline/some-c-sources/blob/main/forth_gmp_irc_bot.c
2025-03-07 14:46:19 <crc         > I normally have it display a subset of the 60 lines, which can be scrolled/paged. (Most of time I'm only using an 80x20-25 line display)
2025-03-07 14:47:20 <crc         > I find the large block size to be unwieldy. I'm much more comfortable with traditional 16x64 blocks.
2025-03-07 14:53:09 <veltas      > Yeah being able to use 80x24 display would be a requirement for me
2025-03-07 15:09:45 <xentrac     > veltas: I think that pressing j to move up a line or b to move forward a word is less effort than pressing ^P or alt-F
2025-03-07 15:11:56 <xentrac     > and pressing d} to delete to the end of a paragraph is less effort than C-SPC M-} C-w
2025-03-07 15:12:21 <xentrac     > so I think it's meaningful to say that vi (or Kakoune) prioritizes movement and editing more than Emacs does
2025-03-07 15:14:20 <xentrac     > by virtue of having a special editing-command mode, the effort to issue movement and editing commands is smaller
2025-03-07 15:15:54 <xentrac     > as an analogy, I can type in Greek on my keyboard setup, but only using the Compose key.  so every letter requires a sequence like Compose * p or something
2025-03-07 15:16:51 <xentrac     > for typing an entire sentence in Greek, this is vastly more effort than switching the keyboard to Greek mode
2025-03-07 15:19:10 <xentrac     > maybe that's subjective in the sense that a person could exist for whom the mental effort of keeping track of which mode they're in, and the work of recovering from the occasional mode error, outweighs the physical effort of pressing a sequence of three keys for every letter, but I doubt it
2025-03-07 15:20:12 <xentrac     > just to be clear, though, I strongly prefer Emacs for programming and for writing prose when I have an actual keyboard
2025-03-07 15:20:49 <xentrac     > I pretty much only use Vim for writing email and programming on my cellphone these days
2025-03-07 15:28:50 <user51      > I'm using Vim, but I can't say I'm too happy with it.
2025-03-07 15:48:27 <cleobuline  > ForthBot:  CAT
2025-03-07 15:48:28 <ForthBot    >    /_/
2025-03-07 15:50:52 <user51      > just a matter of time until half the logs are cowsay variants  :P
2025-03-07 17:35:10 <crc         > user51: if past experience still holds, use of the bots will drop off. None of the interactive ones people have run here over the years ever lasted
2025-03-07 17:46:01 <xentrac     > !dpans exit
2025-03-07 17:46:07 <xentrac     > [bot]dpans: exit
2025-03-07 17:46:14 <xentrac     > [bot]dpans: help
2025-03-07 17:46:38 <xentrac     > no response in privmsg either
2025-03-07 17:51:16 <crc         > dpans: exit
2025-03-07 17:51:31 <crc         > I'll update it to respond to the bot nick tonight
2025-03-07 18:04:20 <xentrac     > aha
2025-03-07 18:17:02 <cleobuline  > dpans: : test ." ceci est un test " ;
2025-03-07 18:17:02 <[bot]dpans  > not found
2025-03-07 18:18:20 <crc         > Dpans is for looking up ans words
2025-03-07 18:18:31 <crc         > Dpans: ."
2025-03-07 18:18:41 <crc         > dpans: ."
2025-03-07 18:18:41 <[bot]dpans  > 6.1.0190   ."                               "dot-quote"                               CORE
2025-03-07 18:18:42 <[bot]dpans  > Interpretation: Interpretation semantics for this word are undefined.
2025-03-07 18:18:42 <[bot]dpans  > Compilation: ( "ccc<quote>" -- )
2025-03-07 18:18:42 <[bot]dpans  > Parse ccc delimited by " (double-quote).  Append the run-time semantics
2025-03-07 18:18:43 <[bot]dpans  > see http://forth.works/dpans/6_1_0190.txt for full description
2025-03-07 18:36:38 <user51      > Dpans sounds like 'DeepAns' to me.. someone train an LLM on the forth standard.
2025-03-07 19:14:28 <ryoshu      > which forth standard is relevant? ans forth 1994 or that forth-standard.org
2025-03-07 19:18:58 <crc         > ans/iso mostly; the newer 20xx effort is an incremental update of that and isn't done
2025-03-07 19:19:13 <Zarutian_iPad> all and none
2025-03-07 19:19:33 <crc         > and then the older ones if working with systems targeting them
2025-03-07 19:19:52 <crc         > 
ACTION is one of those who doesn't bother with the standards at all

2025-03-07 19:20:57 <ryoshu      >  Forth 2012 Standard, and Forth200x committee.
2025-03-07 19:21:07 <ryoshu      > doesn't sound good as we have 2025 now
2025-03-07 19:45:16 <crc         > doesn't really matter; most systems won't target it anyway :)
2025-03-07 20:29:02 <xentrac     > I'm finding this "ambar charkha" idea pretty inspiring: https://metaphorracha.com/blogs/news/what-is-ambar-charkha "The Ambar Charkha transcends being merely a spinning tool; it embodies a powerful movement. It symbolizes an economy in which technology is dedicated to empowering people. It is a tool that can be built and repaired in rural India, keeping craftsmanship and self-reliance at the forefront of
2025-03-07 20:29:08 <xentrac     > our rich textile traditions."
2025-03-07 20:29:37 <user51      > Uh, I was just asking an LLM about goin meta  :)
2025-03-07 20:30:55 <user51      > https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_19284f5e-16af-4ac2-bc15-2c00956d9263