01:14:28
##forth
<tpnix>
KipIngram, I've always thought that way also, but there is another possability ... they hired a maths prodigy to do the design and only he/she understands it, and they paid that person a lot of money. now they see it as a big investment like CAPEX and they OWN it, theyre not sharing ?
01:27:11
##forth
<KipIngram>
Oh, I was talking about the FPGA manufacturers, documenting how their bitstream is used to specify your desired design.
01:27:45
##forth
<KipIngram>
I didn't mean the guy that did that error detection/correction stuff in FPGA for the SSDs. That stuff should absolutely be a trade secret - it's fine fine stuff, and is a competitive advantage.
02:03:34
##forth
<tpnix>
KipIngram, Ive always thought that the electronics chip makers were far too precious also, all these 'secrets' that are soon out of date
03:35:42
##forth
<lisbeths>
whelp, my posix shell forth is 3000 than posix shell. so we're making progress
03:36:11
##forth
<lisbeths>
I don't know how to make things fast without compiling them all the way to whatever its running on
03:36:31
##forth
<lisbeths>
*3000x slower than
03:47:57
##forth
<nmz->
keep going lisbeths
03:48:00
##forth
<nmz->
its a great idea
03:48:56
##forth
<nmz->
I won't use it but its a good idea
03:48:58
##forth
<lisbeths>
the problem is is in pure posix shell there is no way to have arrays. even the gods in #bash say its impossible
03:49:39
##forth
<nmz->
hah
03:49:45
##forth
<nmz->
no, its why rc is much much better
03:49:48
##forth
<nmz->
cleaner design too
03:50:26
##forth
<nmz->
rebol is better as well, amiga used that as its shell I hear
03:50:34
##forth
<lisbeths>
well lately I prefer either c, javascript, or python. but I am writing a compiler tool chain for posix shell so that I can quickly deploy without needing to ask permission from a sysadmin to install something
03:51:03
##forth
<nmz->
like guix then?
03:51:08
##forth
<nmz->
pkgsrc also allows that
03:51:18
##forth
<nmz->
gobolinux started as that as well
03:51:48
##forth
<nmz->
or... what was that complicated one... nix?
03:52:38
##forth
<nmz->
I'm sort of also doing the same thing, but mine is getting rid of the package manager
03:53:19
##forth
<nmz->
for a programming language, basically just have a function that installs the thing
08:43:42
##forth
<MrMobius>
I think some of the super secrecy is less about legitimate competitors who have more or less the same thing and more about being ripped off in countries that dont respect copyright laws
09:10:38
##forth
<tpnix>
MrMobius, they were like this in the 1970's long before china rose and the USA was the only hi tech country
09:11:03
##forth
<tpnix>
MrMobius, basically theyre the same as always
12:18:01
##forth
<lisbeths>
I am willing to trade the dgp from intellectual property so that the chinese named hing sung in a small second floor office in guangdong,china make me an ipad mini sized space age computer tablet that fits in my pocket even though it is a tablet, and its got 4 gigabytes of ram and 4 cores at 2.2 gigahertz per core for only $56.47 usd, and is upgradeable to 2 terrabytes of storage for $169 usd. and then i an buy a folding
12:18:02
##forth
<lisbeths>
keyboard that fits in my pocket for $14 USD and a wireless mouse for $5.94 and run debian linux on it without root. then I can buy a 720p projector screen that proejcts a giant tv and use it as my computer monitor and it fits in my backpack for $30 usd.
15:00:32
##forth
<KipIngram>
MrMobius: Well, that is a good point. Because they will, in a heartbeat, if they can.
15:01:47
##forth
<KipIngram>
lisbeths: But those IP things aren't about us and what's convenient for us - they're about a person's right to reap some profit from the creation of their own mind. Stealing that really isn't any different from stealing a farmer's crop or a craftsman's inventory.
15:03:12
##forth
<KipIngram>
I think patent law, in it's STRUCTURE, is pretty sensible - a period of time during which the creator gets to profit, but eventually the consumers "buy him out" - after all, he couldn't make that profit if they weren't there. They're part of the machine too. So after a reasonable period of time the idea that things become public domain makes sense to me.
15:04:23
##forth
<KipIngram>
I think the big companies have found ways to string it out too long on some fronts though, like copyright. Take Star Trek - the idea, not a particular work - for example. Roddenberry is dead and it's been almost 60 years. The *concept* of Star Trek should be public domain now.
15:04:47
##forth
<KipIngram>
But Paramount just keeps dragging it along.
15:05:36
##forth
<KipIngram>
A few years ago some fans came up with this idea for a crowd funded Trek film - Axanar. Made a teaser video you can find on YouTube called Prelude to Axanar - it's historical documentary style and it's FANTASTIC. I think it would have been a great movie. But Paramount blocked it in court.
15:05:55
##forth
<KipIngram>
That kind of thing should be allowed to happen at this point.
15:06:20
##forth
<KipIngram>
That teaser's about 20 minutes long - if you haven't seen it I highly recommend it.
15:06:42
##forth
<KipIngram>
Well, except that it really makes you want to see the movie, and you can't.
15:08:48
##forth
<KipIngram>
Had some nice nods to the series in it. Garth of Izar is a character in it, and the historical documentary was billed as "Narrated by John Gill," which is a nod to the episode "Patterns of Force."
17:28:16
##forth
<lisbeths>
i think patent law and copy right law has always ruled in favor of coroproations and not inventors
18:14:34
##forth
<KipIngram>
Well, that's what corporations do - they use their concentration of power to skew things in their favor. I think it's something we should do more to prevent, including discouraging them from getting that big in the first place.
18:15:04
##forth
<KipIngram>
I think we'd be far, far better off with an economy more like what we had in the 1950's and 1960's, when a lot more businesses were small and medium size "locally owned" businesses.
18:15:41
##forth
<KipIngram>
In the small town I grew up in, I could look down main street and see businesses - barbers, druggists, furniture store, etc. - all owned by the parents of the kids I went to school and played with.
18:15:59
##forth
<KipIngram>
It was a better way. Those are important upward mobility rungs on the ladder, and we've largely kicked them out these days.
18:16:34
##forth
<KipIngram>
I.e., I agree with you - corporations abuse everything. But I th ink the original concept behind the patent system was well-reasoned.
18:17:42
##forth
<KipIngram>
With smaller businesses, there's at least a CHANCE of good values held by the owner percolating through into the actions of the businesses (in fairness, bad values can too). But with corporations, everything gets mashed out except the drive for more and more profit.
18:18:21
##forth
<KipIngram>
Corporate officers aren't even ALLOWED to let their values push them in a different direction - the lawyers talk about their "ficuiary responsibility" to the shareholders. Profit, profit, profit.
18:18:45
##forth
<KipIngram>
s/ficuciary/fiduciary/
18:19:07
##forth
<KipIngram>
It makes capitalism ugly.
18:20:14
##forth
<KipIngram>
I don't think the core idea of capitalism is the problem - people engaging in voluntary interactions is the most "freedom minded" way we could do things. But if it's not regulated and watched over, it WILL tend to what we have currently, and that's no longer what's best for the people.
18:21:04
##forth
<KipIngram>
But I believe that "small entity" capitalism IS what's best for the people.
18:21:33
##forth
<KipIngram>
And it's the only system that's really freedom-based.
18:22:10
##forth
<KipIngram>
With socialism some committee decides things, and that's just another way of concentrating too much power in too few hands.
18:22:25
##forth
<KipIngram>
Human nature being what it is, it's almost certain to go sour.
20:43:36
##forth
<dzho>
a wild thing about copyright is that it stretches back, at least in legal systems rooted in English law, in government censorship.
20:43:50
##forth
<dzho>
s/in government/to government/
20:44:40
##forth
<dzho>
as in, the Statute of Anne (1709) replaced an earlier system for controlling who was allowed to print things.
21:14:01
##forth
<KipIngram>
Gotta love it.
21:15:31
##forth
<tpnix>
KipIngram, have you seen 'in the perkinning' another startrek type film by a small org ?
21:16:36
##forth
* tpnix is watching ' Prelude to Axanar' atm