04:18:24
#retro
<
za3k>
hi! two comments. first, http://retroforth.org currently says "test", unlike https
04:19:35
#retro
<za3k>
second, i found the docs for ilo, but i remembered crc having another, higher-level VM? something like 2-d stacks or arrays of infinite arrays? am i remembering correctly?
04:31:38
#retro
<crc>
Might be parable
04:36:37
#retro
<crc>
I'll check the HTTP settings in the morning (nearing midnight here, and I've been up for around 20 hours now)
04:39:20
#retro
<crc>
I occasionally think about trying to revive parable, but I don't really have the time to develop & support a third language these days
20:08:19
#retro
<za3k>
link to Toka? hard to google the Toka language
20:09:21
#retro
<za3k>
hmm. if it was parable i was severely misremembering it (quite plausible)
20:11:41
#retro
<za3k>
CRC = cyclic rendundancy check, Toka = Toka Pona (these days)
20:17:57
#retro
<crc>
crc = my initials
20:18:39
#retro
<crc>
modern would be toki pona, not toka pona
20:20:15
#retro
<crc>
toka's main use was to implement the original assembler used for retroforth 10
20:20:47
#retro
<za3k>
i'm just saying when i google 'crc toka' i got those two things :)
20:21:20
#retro
<za3k>
wait how did my search engine switch back to google someohw...
20:23:26
#retro
* crc makes a note to put together a page w/some detail on the various languages he's done over the years
20:28:58
#retro
<za3k>
yeah an index page would be nice. i read retroforth and it literally doesn't mention your name :)
20:29:29
#retro
<za3k>
i had to click through to patreon to find out your name :)
20:29:57
#retro
<za3k>
i like the toka comment-signature format, and the name "macro" for immediate functions
20:30:56
#retro
<za3k>
i'm still learning forth so i'm very confused on the idea of is-data and how data literals work during compilations still--will learn more
21:19:04
#retro
<crc>
I'll have to dig back in my notes but I've done retro (5-12), rxforth (subset of retro9 for embedding in applications, tetraforth (became core of ron aaron's original reva forth), toka, parable, konilo, sedforth, retrolisp, a port of small c to linux, a subset of pilot, and a basic interpreter
21:19:15
#retro
<crc>
probably missing a few things in that list
21:27:04
#retro
<veltas>
BASIC?
21:41:50
#retro
<za3k>
nah just you know, an interpreter. a basic one, nothing fancy.
22:14:15
#retro
<crc>
veltas: yes BASIC
22:14:58
#retro
<crc>
it was the second language I implemented (after an unnamed, very rudimentary experimental thing)
22:15:51
#retro
<crc>
I wrote my first (never published) Forth using my BASIC
22:31:19
#retro
<veltas>
What do you think of BASIC?
22:33:21
#retro
<crc>
I like it as an introductory language. It's easy to teach, and straightforward to get started with.
22:33:50
#retro
<za3k>
I learned in QBASIC, and I would really love to find my old code but I'm sure it's long lost
22:33:54
#retro
<veltas>
I have much the same opinion of it
22:34:09
#retro
<veltas>
QBASIC was what I started with too
22:34:26
#retro
<crc>
It's difficult to build larger programs in though. Most dialects don't have good options for structuring code well.
22:34:42
#retro
<crc>
I also started with QBASIC
22:36:00
#retro
<crc>
pretty much QBASIC -> Assembly -> C -> Forth, then a much wider range of languages in the years since
22:42:24
#retro
<za3k>
other people tell me QBASIC was pretty bad as a basic, but it was the only thing i'd ever tried (and i haven't used another BASIC since) so i have no opinions
22:43:01
#retro
<za3k>
i basically still have never programmed real machine code or assembly, just toy stuff like Zachtronics
22:43:49
#retro
<za3k>
i've been coding for 20 years so this is maybe a little embarassing -- i'm pretty sure i've read like 5 different manuals on microcomputer instruction sets, just never actually done it
22:44:13
#retro
<za3k>
i'm much more confident i could do machine code than assembly though, assembling and especially linking is very mysterious to me
22:44:33
#retro
<za3k>
even C compilation+linking loses me fairly often
22:45:28
#retro
<za3k>
uh #bootstrappable might interest people here
22:48:06
#retro
<veltas>
I think it's easier to learn assembly with an old architecture first
22:48:17
#retro
<za3k>
not as much the goals as the specific bootstrap toolchains like stage0
22:48:27
#retro
<veltas>
I wasn't comfortable with assembly until I played with Z80 quite a bit
22:48:34
#retro
<za3k>
yeah -- for example I was curious about "how can i run the following bytes" and it's pretty nontrivial on a real machine
22:48:56
#retro
<za3k>
you need either NASM or to have some JIT thing that marks active pages as executable and wraps them in C function calling convention, or the like
22:49:12
#retro
<veltas>
Specifically I was playing with a ZX Spectrum
22:49:15
#retro
<za3k>
NASM = something that outputs ELF, whatever
22:49:29
#retro
<za3k>
I wonder if you can get qemu to just execute some Z80 code
22:49:34
#retro
<za3k>
that would be pretty reasonable
22:49:40
#retro
<veltas>
Yep you can
22:49:59
#retro
<za3k>
awesome! i'll make a note, i was supposed to learn assembly with someone this week but a family emergency came up with them
22:50:51
#retro
<za3k>
if you have a specific invocation that would be great (also i have no idea how to dump the memory or whatever else you might do for I/O)
22:50:53
#retro
<za3k>
whoops sorry wrong clipboard, ignore that first message
22:51:36
#retro
<veltas>
On the ZX Spectrum I spent some time playing with SDCC and ended up writing assembly too for performance
22:52:01
#retro
<za3k>
i found a commodore64 clone for sale at the store i got excited by
22:52:15
#retro
<veltas>
Eventually was wondering about writing an OS for it
22:52:23
#retro
<veltas>
I did write a Forth for it
22:52:32
#retro
<za3k>
but the keyboard was literally a solid piece of plastic just vaguely in the shape of a keyboard, you had to plug in a USB keyboard and screen and it just ran an emulator. i returned it 'cause my computer already does all those things?
22:53:08
#retro
<veltas>
Yeah just use an emulator
22:53:36
#retro
<veltas>
I had a real spectrum but sold it, I don't have a lot of living space
22:53:42
#retro
<za3k>
nooo i wanna play with fun hardware :)
22:53:47
#retro
<za3k>
yeah very reasonable
22:54:12
#retro
<veltas>
Also sold the CRT TV I had to use with it
22:54:19
#retro
<za3k>
oof yeah that's a lot of space
22:54:46
#retro
<za3k>
okay should kick myself off IRC but ya'll are cool keep being awesome
22:54:50
#retro
<veltas>
That TV was my family's main TV at some point, weird to think because it was so small in terms of screen size
22:54:56
#retro
<veltas>
Bye