2023-11-07 04:07:53 <veltas      > MrMobius: Watching this space!
2023-11-07 04:09:13 <veltas      > thrig is right quoting Intel for UEFI, it's based on EFI which they came up with
2023-11-07 04:09:16 <veltas      > KipIngram: ^
2023-11-07 04:10:41 <veltas      > And UEFI is fine :P
2023-11-07 04:14:30 <veltas      > A bot for this channel would be great
2023-11-07 06:15:32 <veltas      > What do people think of IF...THEN vs IF...ENDIF etc?
2023-11-07 06:22:56 <olle        > Lua says `end` :)
2023-11-07 06:32:09 <veltas      > And IF...END then ?
2023-11-07 06:32:49 <dave0       > veltas: i like THEN :-)
2023-11-07 06:33:08 <olle        > Way too idiosyncratic
2023-11-07 06:33:09 <dave0       > for no particular reason!
2023-11-07 06:43:04 <veltas      > dave0: I also like it, just wondering what others think
2023-11-07 09:06:47 <KipIngram   > veltas: I've nothing againST UEFI per se; it would have just been nice to see Forth get a toehold of the stature it would have had if all of our PCs used OpenFirmware.  :-)
2023-11-07 09:07:10 <KipIngram   > I'm fine with IF ... THEN, but could be just because I'm used to it.
2023-11-07 09:07:40 <KipIngram   > That said, I don't actually use any of those structures anymore.
2023-11-07 09:07:58 <KipIngram   > I do all of that sort of stuff with conditional returns.
2023-11-07 09:09:16 <KipIngram   > I factor the ... inside the conditional into a word, and put a conditional return right at the start of it.  I either return immediately or go ahead and run the word and then return.
2023-11-07 09:12:01 <KipIngram   > It may be just a personal thing, but since I adopted those practices I've somehow found that it's a lot easier for me to look at my old code and quickly recollect what's going on.
2023-11-07 09:12:25 <KipIngram   > My definitions are shorter and feel more "on point" to me.
2023-11-07 09:13:40 <KipIngram   > Of course, it could just be that I've gotten better at it.  Even though I've written quite a few Forth systems over the years, it was really only a small number of years ago I began actually writing significant amounts of Forth code.  For a long time I was more focused on "building" rather than "using."
2023-11-07 09:17:10 <veltas      > UEFI isn't C-specific, you could use Forth instead
2023-11-07 09:18:02 <veltas      > It's all linked at runtime with function pointer tables, you don't even need to jump through linker hoops to get other languages working
2023-11-07 09:18:03 <tocisz      > KipIngram: what do you mean by conditional return? Can you give an example?
2023-11-07 09:19:08 <KipIngram   > Sure.  For example, one of these words is 0=; and it returns if the top of stack is zero.  So, here would be a comparison:
2023-11-07 09:19:27 <KipIngram   > : foo  ... IF ...code... THEN ;
2023-11-07 09:19:29 <KipIngram   > vs.
2023-11-07 09:19:49 <KipIngram   > : bar  0=; ...code... ;
2023-11-07 09:19:59 <KipIngram   > : foo  ... bar ;
2023-11-07 09:20:33 <KipIngram   > So, if the flag is zero, bar returns immediately and doesn't execute ...code...  If the flag is true, the 0=; doesn't return and we do execute ...code...
2023-11-07 09:21:11 <KipIngram   > Simple idea.  I have the whole matrix you can imagine of possibilities.  Conditionals are < <= = 1= > >= and you may or may not have an implicit 0 operand.
2023-11-07 09:21:28 <KipIngram   > There are also signed and unsigned variants where appropriate.
2023-11-07 09:22:39 <KipIngram   > I have a mechanism that will let me define "temporary" words but later remove those words from the word list, so that they become "invisible."  In the case above I'd use that mechanism on bar, so it wouldn't sit around forever and clutter my dictionary.
2023-11-07 09:22:47 <tocisz      > ok, nice, first time see it, so I guess you defined them by yourself... thanks!
2023-11-07 09:23:05 <KipIngram   > Yes, I'd never seen this as a general mechanism before.
2023-11-07 09:23:17 <KipIngram   > But I'd be surprised if no one has ever done it before.
2023-11-07 09:23:29 <KipIngram   > To get a temp word I use .: instead of :
2023-11-07 09:23:46 <KipIngram   > It sets a flag in the header, and I later run a word called .wipe that unlinks words with that flag set from the name list.
2023-11-07 09:24:19 <KipIngram   > I tend to use a lot of "helper" words that are needed only until i get the main word I'm coding defined.  Then I toss all the helper names in the trash.
2023-11-07 09:24:49 <KipIngram   > Like, my code for NUMBER has around twenty short definitions, but all of them except NUMBER itself are temporary.
2023-11-07 09:27:33 <KipIngram   > Those conditional returns are fairly easy to code up on any Forth if you feel like playing with them.  Mine are primitives for efficiency, but for tinering around Forth definitions would be fine.
2023-11-07 09:28:12 <KipIngram   > It's a large number of words, to cover that whole matrix of cases.  I wrote a Python script to generate the asm source.
2023-11-07 09:29:34 <tocisz      > KipIngram: makes sense, BTW I'm new here, so... is/are "your" forth(s) open source and available somewhere to look at?
2023-11-07 09:30:12 <KipIngram   > :-)  Not yet.  I plan to do that, but I want to get it more "complete" first.  I get poked at in a friendly way over that.
2023-11-07 09:30:43 <KipIngram   > But I don't code very fast, and I don't want to put a partial system up and have someone else finish it before I do.  Probably childish of me, but... it's my baby.
2023-11-07 09:30:59 <KipIngram   > I do plan to share eventually.
2023-11-07 09:31:20 <KipIngram   > I've recently laid out a whole new plan and am about to begin anew.
2023-11-07 09:33:00 <tocisz      > I only played with Mecrisp a bit so far (e.g. https://tomasz-cichocki.pl/posts/003-Digital-pendulum), so I'm a forth novice :)
2023-11-07 09:33:51 <KipIngram   > I haven't used mecrisp across, but I'm very impressed with it.  Looks like a great approach.
2023-11-07 09:34:32 <KipIngram   > I've recently acquired a  half dozen or so units of a little gadget called the MAX2655.  Little 0.75"x2.5' or so board with pins to allow it to be soldered into larger boards.
2023-11-07 09:34:49 <KipIngram   > Cortex M4 processor and a whole flock of nice peripheral features.
2023-11-07 09:35:09 <KipIngram   > I want my next system to be able to run on that and serve as an "OS" for all that functionality.
2023-11-07 09:35:42 <KipIngram   > Then if I build some project i can just solder one of those onto the main project board and immediately start writing project-specific Forth code.
2023-11-07 09:36:30 <KipIngram   > it's got Bluetooth among its peripherals; ultimately I want to be able to open a console connection to it using Bluetooth.
2023-11-07 09:58:23 <KipIngram   > tocisz: Forth takes a little getting used to.  It's easy to understand the basic ideas; it's one of the simplest languages around.  But getting "comfy" coding with it just takes some practice.
2023-11-07 10:00:25 <thrig       > almost like a natural language
2023-11-07 10:03:00 <KipIngram   > Yes, that seems fair.
2023-11-07 10:03:21 <KipIngram   > But it's a fairly large step from "common" languages.
2023-11-07 10:03:41 <KipIngram   > I'd say C -> Forth would be a harder step than, say, C -> Python.
2023-11-07 10:03:47 <KipIngram   > The differences run deeper.
2023-11-07 10:03:52 <thrig       > there are some wacky ones out there
2023-11-07 10:04:15 <KipIngram   > Maybe like how French to German would be a bigger step than French to Spanish.
2023-11-07 10:09:03 <veltas      > Learning forth well enough to know a lot of the standard glossary and write programs isn't that hard
2023-11-07 10:09:13 <veltas      > It doesn't take that long, especially for C programmers
2023-11-07 10:09:22 <veltas      > Learning to write forth well is just a continuous exercise
2023-11-07 10:15:12 <veltas      > I don't include myself in that camp
2023-11-07 11:21:25 <skvery      > KipIngram You mean MAX32660
2023-11-07 11:23:18 <KipIngram   > I'm referring to a different thing - the processor may be MAX32660, but the product I actually bought is MAX32655THR.
2023-11-07 11:23:53 <KipIngram   > that's the digikey part #.
2023-11-07 11:24:06 <KipIngram   > Well, it's the way Digikey lists it.
2023-11-07 11:25:16 <KipIngram   > I'm sorry - MAX32655FTHR.
2023-11-07 11:25:18 <KipIngram   > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/analog-devices-inc-maxim-integrated/MAX32655FTHR/17885194?s=N4IgTCBcDaILYEMAeBmMA2ArJgZgFwAsAnEAXQF8g
2023-11-07 11:25:37 <KipIngram   > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/MAX32655FTHR.pdf
2023-11-07 11:26:04 <KipIngram   > And it is the whole board I'm targeting for an OS - the Soc processor and everything else built in.
2023-11-07 11:28:25 <skvery      > I see mecrisp is ready-made for the Analog Devices ADuCM4050
2023-11-07 11:31:50 <skvery      > But does it have the same memory programming model as the Maxim devices?  Native mecrisp is great, because it is very clost to the wires and very fast for an interpreter.  Even has a threading model.
2023-11-07 11:33:59 <skvery      > With mecrisp the basic forth routines are implemented in assembler, making it fast enough for almost anything.  You can also code time critical stuff in assembler if needed.
2023-11-07 11:40:07 <KipIngram   > I'm not just looking for a "way to use the MAx32655" in future projects.  That's part of it.   But also the process of building my own tool is a big part of the hobby for me.
2023-11-07 11:40:15 <KipIngram   > So I don't want to grab something existing and use it.
2023-11-07 11:40:23 <KipIngram   > I want to code it myself, entirely from scratch.
2023-11-07 11:51:45 <skvery      > Well the source code is available for the AD chip.  You are definitely very close to the bones with mecrisp.
2023-11-07 11:53:47 <skvery      > You just need to make sure that the eprom programming model can accomodate mecrisp.
2023-11-07 11:55:36 <skvery      > ...or othewise you will have to use mecrisp across.  I prefer mecrisp native that works without the compile - flash - run cycle.
2023-11-07 12:39:41 <KipIngram   > Yes, I'm planning something that will compile to RAM.  My board has 128kB of RAM - that's very ample for a Forth system.
2023-11-07 12:40:05 <KipIngram   > I'm also expecting this to be the most compact system I've written to date.
2023-11-07 12:41:00 <thrig       > ... when there is nothing left to remove
2023-11-07 12:45:40 <veltas      > I'm used to 128K of RAM chips, that's the sort of size I have at work
2023-11-07 12:45:44 <veltas      > Feels like tons of space
2023-11-07 12:46:02 <veltas      > Until people ask questions like "can we put Linux on it?"
2023-11-07 12:46:24 <thrig       > dat mmu
2023-11-07 12:46:43 <Zarutian_iPad59> eh, 128K isnt enough for a framebuffer
2023-11-07 12:48:00 <veltas      > I think traditionally framebuffers went on video cards anyway
2023-11-07 12:52:44 <veltas      > Mind you that's 128K of RAM plus like 1MB flash for program and constant data
2023-11-07 12:53:12 <thrig       > the original C compiler fit in 12K
2023-11-07 12:54:41 <veltas      > Shouldn't be surprising, C's designed for "one pass" although that compiler had a number of stages
2023-11-07 12:56:01 <veltas      > C's definitely capable of being broken into very small pieces to work on at a time, it's not exactly Rust
2023-11-07 12:56:28 <thrig       > besides the llvm dependency
2023-11-07 12:56:34 <thrig       > or in addition to
2023-11-07 12:57:04 <veltas      > What for? C?
2023-11-07 12:57:22 <GeDaMo      > https://github.com/rswier/c4/blob/master/c4.c
2023-11-07 12:58:39 <veltas      > There's no harm in writing readable code
2023-11-07 12:58:47 <veltas      > Even if it's longer than 4 functions
2023-11-07 13:03:04 <thrig       > when did github break viewing files
2023-11-07 13:03:15 <veltas      > In last year some time I think
2023-11-07 13:04:02 <veltas      > It's amazing, the whole point of github is that it's easy to view files and it hosts git repos. Now it just hosts git repos. Next they'll probably get rid of that
2023-11-07 13:04:12 <thrig       > the content is now {{ message }}
2023-11-07 13:04:24 <thrig       > lipstick and no pig
2023-11-07 13:08:08 <veltas      > "Microsoft is proud to announce that we have open-sourced Source Depot and have converted all repos on GitHub to Source Depot format. From now on GitHub shall use the brand SourceDepotHub ..."
2023-11-07 13:10:10 <thrig       > didn't microsoft move to git after not really dogfooding their own VCS
2023-11-07 13:10:33 <veltas      > Microsoft put Windows in one git repo that's like 300GB
2023-11-07 13:10:42 <thrig       > bloat
2023-11-07 13:10:49 <veltas      > Honestly I think git is great but that was a mistake
2023-11-07 13:10:57 <thrig       > granted there's i18n, but, still, bloat
2023-11-07 13:11:17 <veltas      > Bloat but also it probably has loads of history
2023-11-07 13:11:42 <thrig       > they did lose some source code, based on how some CVE were fixed
2023-11-07 13:14:31 <veltas      > MS peaked in the 90's I think
2023-11-07 13:16:50 <KipIngram   > I try to forget the exist.
2023-11-07 13:29:56 <KipIngram   > s/the/they/
2023-11-07 13:31:44 <thrig       > kinda hard when a dev board mandates windows
2023-11-07 13:34:54 <MrMobius    > ya I get soooooo annoyed when people tell me they can do anything on Linux and theres no reason for me to still be on windows
2023-11-07 13:35:22 <MrMobius    > meanwhile, different Linux guys are griping that their EEPROM programmer doesn't work
2023-11-07 13:35:34 <KipIngram   > I don't understand at all why everyone keeps using Windows when Linux is free.
2023-11-07 13:35:53 <KipIngram   > And I hate how companies put out products that are "Windows only."
2023-11-07 13:36:03 <MrMobius    > EEPROM programmer/dev board/CPLD programmer/random MCU compiler
2023-11-07 13:36:15 <KipIngram   > Yeah, lots of things.
2023-11-07 13:37:02 <MrMobius    > I actually have two computers and ssh into Ubuntu from windows. No way I'm giving up windows until my embedded stuff works there which will be never
2023-11-07 13:37:18 <KipIngram   > I'll find a way to do without it.
2023-11-07 13:48:57 <KipIngram   > The 32655 will self-program if you drop an image in the right foormat on the disk device it presents.
2023-11-07 13:49:05 <KipIngram   > So, I don't need any programming tool.
2023-11-07 13:49:17 <KipIngram   > And my intent is to produce the image from Python.
2023-11-07 13:49:36 <KipIngram   > I intend to do this with no other tools than that.
2023-11-07 13:50:06 <KipIngram   > And then once it's working of course the Forth itself will be able to program flash sectors.
2023-11-07 13:50:41 <KipIngram   > I have a couple of SDKs instealled, but using them heavily isn't the real plan.
2023-11-07 13:51:42 <KipIngram   > And the Python will also include an emulator for the vm portion of the thing.  So I'll be able to develop Forth code for it without using the board at all (though I don't plan to emulate the peripherals).
2023-11-07 13:52:06 <KipIngram   > But just getting the main part of the system written - the interpreter, compiler, etc. - I'll be able to do that under emulation.
2023-11-07 14:03:48 <KipIngram   > It looks like they've adjusted our Slack settings at work to automatically mark us inactive if we don't interact with Slack for half an hour.
2023-11-07 14:04:22 <KipIngram   > As though that's the only thing that counts as work - I'm often in other windows doing other things - mostly console windows moshed into my test stands.
2023-11-07 14:04:55 <KipIngram   > I wrote a script this morning that uses Apple's osascript tool to inject a single keystroke into my Slack window every 20 minutes.
2023-11-07 14:05:23 <KipIngram   > I used a similar method a year ago or so to defeat the automatic screen lock timer.
2023-11-07 14:05:43 <thrig       > look at me, boss! I'm busy!!
2023-11-07 14:06:11 <KipIngram   > I ran a dozen tests over the weekend, which did involve spinning the stands to new ones Saturday night.
2023-11-07 14:06:23 <KipIngram   > I work whenever I need to to keep the equipment churning.
2023-11-07 14:06:44 <KipIngram   > I have no concerns about whether I "work enough.'
2023-11-07 14:07:42 <KipIngram   > Yesterday a colleague mistakenly unplugged the network cable from one of my canisters.  It finished that step but was then unable to move to the next one.
2023-11-07 14:07:50 <KipIngram   > I had to sort that out this morning and get those jobs restarted.
2023-11-07 14:08:41 <KipIngram   > Worst part of it time-wise was that it happened to be the stand I use to monitor ALL of my ongoing jobs.  There's a tmux window ssh'd into wherever for each job.
2023-11-07 14:09:00 <KipIngram   > so i had to spend the better part of 10 minutes opening new tmux windows and tailing all the session logs.
2023-11-07 14:09:52 <KipIngram   > I really should look into automating that initial tmux setup and the ssh connections and so on.
2023-11-07 14:10:30 <KipIngram   > I've requested three more test stand on the 2024 capital budget plan; that will make things even busier unless I push my automation further along.
2023-11-07 14:12:08 <KipIngram   > There are opportunities for that, though.  As it is now, I manually cp -r a directory specifying a test into a drive's operating directory, send a command from another machine to start that test, and it runs all the way through.
2023-11-07 14:12:28 <KipIngram   > Then I manually harvest the data into my database, manually clear the residue out of the stand, and manually run a report.
2023-11-07 14:12:42 <KipIngram   > So several of those steps at the end can be automated without too  much trouble.
2023-11-07 14:13:13 <KipIngram   > Ideally i'd just say "run <testname> <drive>" from my control machine and then just find the report placed somewhere for me later.
2023-11-07 14:13:27 <KipIngram   > Even better would be a job queue for each drive.
2023-11-07 14:13:54 <KipIngram   > I also patch firmware manually and format drives manually.
2023-11-07 14:14:53 <KipIngram   > The existing automation is mostly focused on guiding a job through all of the steps and keeping the two canisters that participate in a job together properly synchronized.
2023-11-07 14:36:11 <KipIngram   > Ok, there is a downside of the Brave browser.
2023-11-07 14:36:23 <KipIngram   > You can't edit the keyboard shortcuts.  You just get what you get.
2023-11-07 14:36:58 <KipIngram   > In particular, tab right is ctrl-page-up and tab left is ctrl-page-down.  I'd rather have that be ctrl-k and ctrl-j, which is what I had on Chrome.
2023-11-07 14:37:24 <KipIngram   > Page up and page down are "way off over yonder."
2023-11-07 14:38:01 <KipIngram   > I had ctrl-P programmed to close a tab; in Brave it's ctrl-w.  That one isn't so bad; I'm getting used to it already.
2023-11-07 14:38:46 <KipIngram   > There are probably extensions, but when I went to Brave's extension store they popped up a big box that said "Brave does not review extensions."
2023-11-07 14:38:54 <KipIngram   > Well, then I'm not really comfortable using any.
2023-11-07 14:44:04 <KipIngram   > Maybe I should do this emulator / image generator in C instead of Python.  The emulation would certainly be higher performance if I do that.
2023-11-07 15:49:51 <veltas      > KipIngram: C is easier than Python for me
2023-11-07 15:50:03 <olle        > Put it on a tshirt lol
2023-11-07 15:50:58 <veltas      > I'm just not used to Python and I find myself doing all the same stuff I'd do in C in a less familiar syntax
2023-11-07 15:52:28 <veltas      > I remember a few years ago I used Python to convert some source code files and was running into issues where the files didn't decode correctly as utf-8 or something and I was just thinking I literally wouldn't even know or care in C
2023-11-07 15:54:02 <KipIngram   > I've gotten pretty famfiliar with it.  It's appeal to me has to do with the ease with which it lets me slice and dice strings and also the *extremely* vast array of packages around for it.  Those things together make it great for the "quick and dirty" tooling I often find myself writing for work related stuff.
2023-11-07 15:54:14 <KipIngram   > Together bash and Python are the total backbone of my work coding.
2023-11-07 15:54:47 <veltas      > I love how the syntax error example is something you can't even really do in C and if you did it has a much better error message https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/errors.html
2023-11-07 15:55:02 <veltas      > Better than "invalid syntax"
2023-11-07 15:55:30 <veltas      > I think C has more libraries than Python although I'm not sure
2023-11-07 15:55:45 <veltas      > It's a lot, it's one of the big ecosystems
2023-11-07 15:57:13 <KipIngram   > I'm sure it does.  I don't know for sure why Python just seemed so straightforward and intuitive to me.
2023-11-07 15:57:31 <KipIngram   > I certainly like C.  I just don't find myself doing that much of it, so i'm a little less "fluid
2023-11-07 15:57:35 <KipIngram   > with it.
2023-11-07 15:57:59 <KipIngram   > But like I said, it feels like a better tool for this emulator/generator project I want to undertake.
2023-11-07 15:58:09 <Zarutian_iPad> 
ACTION uses tcl or js for the sameish purposes

2023-11-07 16:00:02 <KipIngram   > I'll want to have a big array that serves as my emulator's RAM, and C will probably let me manipulate that array with less hoop jumping than Python will.  I'm sure it could be done in Python, but I think it would be more clunky.
2023-11-07 16:02:53 <Zarutian_iPad> it is faster too. I wrote a small FCPU-16 and FCPU-32 emulator a way back in C and found it rather faster than the one I had written in js
2023-11-07 16:03:28 <KipIngram   > Yes, it'll definitely be a win on emulation performance.
2023-11-07 16:03:57 <veltas      > KipIngram: pass
2023-11-07 16:04:47 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: JS is probably right choice today for most scripting, I don't know that ecosystem at all though
2023-11-07 16:04:52 <veltas      > No it's awk for me ;)
2023-11-07 16:05:14 <veltas      > Lua's actually my favourite but it's made all the wrong decisions
2023-11-07 16:05:33 <KipIngram   > No js here either.  I've used awk a few times, but it's always cut and paste bits I find online.  I don't know how to even start "writing" awk.
2023-11-07 16:05:52 <veltas      > The tutorial for GNU awk is a good starting place
2023-11-07 16:06:22 <veltas      > It's literally just a C scripting language, it's clearly meant for short scripts but you can abuse it to longer programs as well
2023-11-07 16:06:33 <veltas      > With regex too
2023-11-07 16:07:48 <veltas      > It's such a UNIX language too, it's aimed at processing really simple text streams
2023-11-07 16:08:18 <KipIngram   > That would likely fit my work pretty well.
2023-11-07 16:09:24 <veltas      > It's definitely on my shortlist of "you must try this before you die" languages
2023-11-07 16:10:33 <veltas      > https://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/html_node/Getting-Started.html
2023-11-07 16:12:23 <veltas      > The examples in this one are great https://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/html_node/Very-Simple.html
2023-11-07 16:13:14 <Riviera     > awk can be learnt in 10 minutes or so
2023-11-07 16:13:17 <veltas      > If it's not clear early on, awk is sort of like javascript and excel and a database; but it's also just a very simple scripting language from 1977
2023-11-07 16:13:37 <KipIngram   > I tend to like older tools.
2023-11-07 16:13:39 <veltas      > And yeah you can actually learn awk in an hour or so
2023-11-07 16:13:51 <KipIngram   > Usually not as laden with bells and whistles.
2023-11-07 16:14:01 <KipIngram   > Since the power to support them wasn't there.
2023-11-07 16:14:24 <KipIngram   > In fact, maybe that's exactly why I like them - they're of necessity "leaner."
2023-11-07 16:16:48 <veltas      > There was a lot of emergent behaviour with awk, it was designed as a simple and dirty scripting language for processing text records and people started using it instead of C for 'systems programming'
2023-11-07 16:17:27 <Riviera     > It was designed as dirty scripting language?
2023-11-07 16:22:29 <veltas      > Yeah no local variables and its pattern/action layout at the top level, I would say it was designed for 'quick and dirty' tasks
2023-11-07 16:22:39 <veltas      > Not designed for big programs or 'engineering' or anything
2023-11-07 16:22:50 <veltas      > But it happened to be attractive for that as well ultimately
2023-11-07 16:25:13 <Riviera     > The tasks, perhaps, even though I don't think they were considered "dirty" back then, and I would likely not agree with that today. A small task does not need to be a "dirty" task. However, why I was asking: I find awk (itself) mostly really nicely designed and anything but "dirty."
2023-11-07 16:25:31 <Riviera     > Only thing that I often do not find elegant is having ranges of fields, or removing fields, stuff like that.
2023-11-07 16:25:37 <Riviera     > (Which it should excel at.)
2023-11-07 16:27:01 <Riviera     > There was only very recently---a few days ago---the 2nd edition of "the" awk book published, many years after the first edition (from 1988): https://www.awk.dev/
2023-11-07 16:29:21 <KipIngram   > Wow - that is a long time.
2023-11-07 16:30:18 <KipIngram   > I'll take a look at it, guys; it does sound like I might like it.
2023-11-07 16:30:47 <Riviera     > The book or the language?
2023-11-07 16:31:00 <KipIngram   > Never hurts to expand one's toolkit now and again.
2023-11-07 16:31:01 <Riviera     > The book is actually really nice (1st edition at least).
2023-11-07 16:31:11 <KipIngram   > The language first - if I get drawn in I'll probably get the book.
2023-11-07 16:31:21 <KipIngram   > I'll start with the link veltas offered.
2023-11-07 16:31:30 <veltas      > Sounds like a worthy addition to my library, I'll have to get that book one day
2023-11-07 16:31:45 <veltas      > The link is free at least and it's what I learned awk with
2023-11-07 16:32:18 <veltas      > I don't mean 'dirty' as an insult, I mean it in the positive sense like how Forth is 'dirty'
2023-11-07 16:32:45 <Riviera     > veltas: Sure, it's just that I find the language itself really well designed, so I wanted to clarify that.
2023-11-07 16:32:53 <Riviera     > One more thing, let me find the link:
2023-11-07 16:33:45 <veltas      > I think it's partly because it's derived from C which itself is very 'evolved' and also derived from a number of other languages, and awk restores some of the succinctness that was lost from B to C which the authors were aware of
2023-11-07 16:34:27 <Riviera     > if only for quickly checking the table of contents: https://ia903404.us.archive.org/0/items/pdfy-MgN0H1joIoDVoIC7/The_AWK_Programming_Language.pdf
2023-11-07 17:23:46 <KipIngram   > Some of the stuff on YouTube just blows my mind.
2023-11-07 17:23:48 <KipIngram   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqqkpfd7OCc
2023-11-07 17:24:07 <KipIngram   > There is so much baloney there I can hardly believe it.
2023-11-07 17:24:29 <Zarutian_iPad> what is that vid?
2023-11-07 17:24:32 <KipIngram   > The whole "free energy" thing is a peeve of mine.
2023-11-07 17:24:49 <KipIngram   > I didn't watch the whole thing - it's something about pulling energy out of the atmosphere.
2023-11-07 17:24:53 <KipIngram   > Tesla leftovers.
2023-11-07 17:25:06 <KipIngram   > Tesla is like the posterboy of that crowd.
2023-11-07 17:25:17 <Zarutian_iPad> this the "solar globe" crap I been telling yt to stop showing me ads for?
2023-11-07 17:25:36 <KipIngram   > Me?
2023-11-07 17:25:46 <KipIngram   > Oh - youtube.
2023-11-07 17:25:56 <Zarutian_iPad> oh, right the "earth current" crap
2023-11-07 17:25:57 <KipIngram   > Misread yt as "ya".
2023-11-07 17:26:00 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-11-07 17:26:29 <Riviera     > I wonder why it often sounds so "affected" / "over the top" when British people speak
2023-11-07 17:26:32 <Riviera     > at least to me.
2023-11-07 17:26:41 <Zarutian_iPad> I know of earth currents, they are usually in the millivolt and milliamp ranges
2023-11-07 17:27:10 <KipIngram   > I did notice one completely overt error in the early part of the video.  He drew a pair of series connected capacitors, of equal value, and noted that they would divide the voltage between them.  Right.  But the he said if one was bigger than the other you could adjust the division, and he said the smaller capacitor would have the smaller voltage, and vice versa.
2023-11-07 17:27:15 <KipIngram   > Wrong - it's the other way around.
2023-11-07 17:27:16 <Zarutian_iPad> has to do with soil salinity wetness and such stuff
2023-11-07 17:27:19 <Riviera     > like SHOUTING every third WORD or SOMETHINGlike that
2023-11-07 17:28:18 <Zarutian_iPad> pain in the arse to deal with when doing hobby crop growing I heard
2023-11-07 17:28:30 <KipIngram   > They get equal charge by charge conservation, and if Q = CV and C goes down, then V has to go up.
2023-11-07 17:29:17 <Zarutian_iPad> yebb otherwise jacobs ladder high voltage amplifier would not work
2023-11-07 17:31:09 <KipIngram   > Yes.  I didn't see that anyone called him out on that mistake in the comments.
2023-11-07 17:31:39 <KipIngram   > But just reading the comments, and seeing all these people putzing around and acting like they're doing important work, is crazy.
2023-11-07 17:32:25 <veltas      > Riviera: I think that's a product of how it's recorded
2023-11-07 17:32:32 <Zarutian_iPad> puddling along
2023-11-07 17:32:44 <veltas      > Because that jumped out at me as well and doesn't sound natural to me
2023-11-07 17:33:06 <Riviera     > veltas: hm. But I've noticed that relatively often.
2023-11-07 17:33:33 <veltas      > I do believe actually that most microphones are tuned to american speaking, so maybe british accent is just badly tuned on these devices
2023-11-07 17:33:42 <veltas      > I've noticed the same thing
2023-11-07 17:34:05 <veltas      > It's highly annoying to listen to people on e.g. Microsoft Teams, and then they sound totally normal in person
2023-11-07 17:34:16 <veltas      > In Britain anyway
2023-11-07 17:34:38 <veltas      > Trust me we don't actually TALK like THIS here, it IS annoying i PROMISE :P
2023-11-07 17:35:11 <veltas      > I've heard americans do this as well, just less often, some words like 'AND' pick up too loud for instance
2023-11-07 17:35:17 <Zarutian_iPad> turn off the damn auto gain volume control
2023-11-07 17:35:18 <Riviera     > Hm.
2023-11-07 17:35:27 <Riviera     > veltas: Interesting  :)
2023-11-07 17:35:34 <veltas      > That's my hypothesis
2023-11-07 17:36:07 <Riviera     > veltas: I might have follow-up questions sometime. :D
2023-11-07 17:36:18 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: Microsoft Teams doesn't do auto gain, it just turns volume down and very slowly turns it up if it's loud suddenly
2023-11-07 17:36:40 <veltas      > Zarutian_iPad: The effect is someone thumbles to put mic on, it hears a lot of loud crackling, turns them way down, and then they are quiet for a while before it turns them up again
2023-11-07 17:37:04 <Zarutian_iPad> probably because most ms teams users do not mute when not talking
2023-11-07 17:37:53 <veltas      > It is very frustrating to me as previously a regular user of teamspeak and mumble having to deal with now expensive (commercially) software that just sucks in comparison
2023-11-07 17:38:17 <veltas      > Discord is better too I just forgot it existed for a second there
2023-11-07 17:38:53 <Zarutian_iPad> Google Meet is surprisingly good
2023-11-07 17:39:48 <thrig       > ... until they cancel it
2023-11-07 17:40:13 <veltas      > Mumble isn't going anywhere, it's fine, open source, ....
2023-11-07 17:40:37 <veltas      > And then for chatting we've got IRC and a load of open source client and network software .....
2023-11-07 17:41:49 <Zarutian_iPad> did Mumble add codec2 from freedv.org a few months back is that just a rumor I heard?
2023-11-07 17:44:47 <veltas      > I don't see anything about it
2023-11-07 17:47:09 <Zarutian_iPad> I am mulling if it should be an option for crappy wifi or low bandwidth connections
2023-11-07 17:48:52 <veltas      > Mumble has Opus which is supposedly 'versatile', I think the proof is in the pudding
2023-11-07 17:50:23 <Zarutian_iPad> sure, I am only musing as having mumble work over basically the equiv of spotty 3.6k mode would be amusing.
2023-11-07 17:50:50 <veltas      > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-codec-results-03
2023-11-07 17:50:54 <veltas      > https://listening-test.coresv.net/results.htm
2023-11-07 17:55:00 <veltas      > Well what I can say is you'll have an easier time adding Codec2 to mumble than discord or teams
2023-11-07 18:03:39 <thrig       > I started teams once, spent some time wonder what the heck it was doing to take soon long to get up off disk
2023-11-07 18:06:14 <veltas      > I see so many bugs in teams that literally aren't possible in mumble because it's not a web browser bundled with a program
2023-11-07 18:06:29 <veltas      > But that's what people want *sigh*
2023-11-07 18:07:29 <thrig       > someone was just ranting on gopher about doing the popular thing
2023-11-07 18:12:27 <veltas      > popular thing bad, popular thing bloated, gopher good, gopher lightweight, gopher destroy many gardens
2023-11-07 18:15:10 <veltas      > Are you a gopher fan thrig?
2023-11-07 18:16:30 <thrig       > not really, but I read a few phlogs and whatnot
2023-11-07 18:17:02 <veltas      > A phlog sounds like a punishment
2023-11-07 18:18:28 <thrig       > it's basically a blog, only on gopher
2023-11-07 18:38:52 <KipIngram   > Ok, gopher looks like it could be somewhat addictive.
2023-11-07 18:39:05 <KipIngram   > Very reminiscent of "old days" networking.
2023-11-07 18:40:33 <KipIngram   > Easy to navigate and VERY fast.
2023-11-07 18:40:50 <KipIngram   > Makes the computer feel the way a computer ought to feel.
2023-11-07 18:48:04 <veltas      > thrig: Any phlog suggestions?
2023-11-07 18:48:37 <veltas      > I'm trying the bombadillo client which is nice
2023-11-07 18:48:43 <veltas      > Terminal client with vi-style bindings
2023-11-07 18:49:22 <thrig       > one group (if you could call it that) is gopher://box.matto.nl/0/pg.txt
2023-11-07 18:55:18 <KipIngram   > I just poked around with lynx, which I already had installed.
2023-11-07 18:57:39 <KipIngram   > veltas: Did you have to build bombadillo?
2023-11-07 18:58:03 <thrig       > some folks package it
2023-11-07 19:00:28 <averymt     > veltas well, flogging *is* a punishment
2023-11-07 19:29:42 <KipIngram   > Main discontent I have with lynx at the moment is that its screen layout doesn't survive me switching from full screen back to my tiled layout and then back to full screen again.
2023-11-07 19:29:58 <KipIngram   > What comes back doesn't look right and appears to take a variable length of time to fully recover.
2023-11-07 19:30:19 <KipIngram   > As long as I stay in full screen it seems to work fine.
2023-11-07 19:30:45 <KipIngram   > I guess I could just open a whole separate full screen Terminator window.
2023-11-07 19:31:18 <KipIngram   > Some entertaining stuff at gopher://1436.ninja/1/moku-pona
2023-11-07 19:38:42 <thrig       > there's also gopher://gopher.club/1/users/screwtape
2023-11-07 20:46:37 <KipIngram   > Hey - one of these Gopher docs I'm reading mentions a prominent software figure referred to as Dianora.  I used to chat on a itty bitty IRC channel started by a guy after he got banned from #C; it was the #c-banned channel.  Dianora hung out there for a while - I've had conversations with her.
2023-11-07 20:46:46 <KipIngram   > I had no idea she was significantly noteworthy.
2023-11-07 22:46:51 <KipIngram   > Guys, probably worth strolling outside and taking a look at Jupiter.
2023-11-07 22:47:05 <KipIngram   > It's insanely bright - apparently closest approach was just 3-4 days ago.
2023-11-07 22:56:12 <thrig       > I guess I could have a peep at the clouds
2023-11-07 22:59:58 <KipIngram   > It's partly cloudy here too, but there were openings.
2023-11-07 23:11:56 <KipIngram   > Good grief.  We had an election here today.  My wife and I went out and voted; we try to generally anyway, but this time there was a measure on the ballot having to do with property tax breaks for retirees.  We wanted to go support that.
2023-11-07 23:12:13 <KipIngram   > But anyway, I just read that looks like turnout in our county was 13.5%.
2023-11-07 23:12:20 <KipIngram   > THAT'S PATHETIC.
2023-11-07 23:13:06 <KipIngram   > There are people in the world who'd give most anything to have a voice in their government, and 7 out of 8 of us here didn't even bother.