2023-12-13 12:23:53 <KipIngram   > You know, it just occurred to me (though it's one of those "obvious things" - I just hadn't given it direct thought) that before the internet college campuses probably represented our primary hubs of information exchange.
2023-12-13 12:24:14 <KipIngram   > Seeing as how people converged on them from all over, spent a period of time immersed in their culture, and then scattered back all over again.
2023-12-13 12:24:48 <KipIngram   > And the way it works timing wise each new group that came in overlapped with the previous groups, which gives a mechanism for maintaining an internal "state" that would evolve over time.
2023-12-13 12:24:56 <KipIngram   > A slow but sure network.
2023-12-13 12:27:50 <KipIngram   > And with slow feedback, since those that departed earlier then raised children that eventually fed into the campuses again.
2023-12-13 12:28:15 <KipIngram   > Bringing with them whatever culture their parents imparted to them.
2023-12-13 12:28:35 <KipIngram   > Especially before radio and TV that was practically the whole mechanism.
2023-12-13 12:30:55 <thrig       > information also gets passed around in pubs
2023-12-13 12:31:12 <KipIngram   > Yes, much more locally, though.
2023-12-13 12:31:34 <KipIngram   > That definitely is part of local cultures emerging and would influence those "in-going" students.
2023-12-13 12:31:56 <KipIngram   > I was just struck by the very wide geographical net the college process casts.
2023-12-13 12:32:43 <KipIngram   > The pubs would be exactly the same, geography aside.
2023-12-13 12:33:14 <KipIngram   > What got me thinking about it was the time it took for Tolkien's work to become really popular.
2023-12-13 12:33:25 <KipIngram   > it really wasn't until after he was gone, or almost gone.
2023-12-13 12:33:42 <KipIngram   > it was popular - he was "successful," but not nearly so much as he was later.
2023-12-13 12:34:02 <KipIngram   > And I found myself wondering if the "college engine" contributed to that, and it just took a while.
2023-12-13 12:34:40 <KipIngram   > My sense is that it was the 60's generation (beatniks, hippies, etc.) that really glommed onto him, so it may have required that other aspects of our culture develop before he  "took off."
2023-12-13 12:35:15 <KipIngram   > The earlier generation may have just been a little too pragmatic to totally appreciate him.
2023-12-13 12:35:36 <KipIngram   > After all, it was "fantasy" - fairy tales.
2023-12-13 12:36:39 <thrig       > the literati writing at the time was very much high fantasy
2023-12-13 12:37:19 <thrig       > err, very much *not* high fantasy
2023-12-13 12:37:39 <KipIngram   > Right - Tolkien introduced a whole new thing.
2023-12-13 12:38:06 <KipIngram   > What he professed he wanted to do was "create a mythology for England."
2023-12-13 12:38:21 <KipIngram   > Guess he didn't want the Greeks and the Norse having all the fun.
2023-12-13 12:39:16 <thrig       > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Toynbee
2023-12-13 12:39:23 <thrig       > and look for the lord of the rings review
2023-12-13 12:39:55 <thrig       > (Philip is son of Arnold, a notable historian)
2023-12-13 12:41:00 <KipIngram   > Heh.  He wasn't very impressed, was he?
2023-12-13 12:41:46 <KipIngram   > I have nothing to say about the stuff's "relevance," but I do find it entertaining and what just amazes me is how well it all holds together as a total creation.
2023-12-13 12:42:03 <KipIngram   > It's... VAST, and yet for the most part it's remarkably self-consistent.
2023-12-13 12:42:19 <thrig       > probably because he worked out the world in detail, then wrote in it
2023-12-13 12:42:29 <KipIngram   > Setting aside the fact that it did evolve over time in Tolkien's mind and we have some writing from all of those periods.
2023-12-13 12:42:36 <thrig       > similar to immersive game environments
2023-12-13 12:42:47 <KipIngram   > yes.  It wasn't JUST his profession - it was his hobby and his everything else.
2023-12-13 12:43:07 <KipIngram   > He'd already been working on it for 20 years before even The Hobbit was published.
2023-12-13 12:43:33 <thrig       > modern parallels might be "Dwarf Fortress" or similar
2023-12-13 12:43:41 <KipIngram   > He didn't initially intend for The Hobbit to be set in that world.
2023-12-13 12:43:49 <KipIngram   > It just sort of got "sucked in."
2023-12-13 12:46:36 <KipIngram   > And in fact he revised it after publication to "tune that up" a bit.
2023-12-13 12:46:48 <slacko_user13052> About the information nexus thing, historically you have to consider both religious institutions and professional societies and guilds as well as trade routes and, later you also have secret societies, which despite the name were actually very common for a time.
2023-12-13 12:47:36 <KipIngram   > That's all true too.
2023-12-13 12:47:57 <KipIngram   > And now the internet has come along and pretty much just dwarfed all of those things.
2023-12-13 12:48:08 <KipIngram   > In capacity and speed.
2023-12-13 12:48:40 <slacko_user13052> yep, and it keeps changing too. we really haven;t hit an equilibrium yet.
2023-12-13 12:49:04 <KipIngram   > That's got to be the most significant change that's happened in the last hundred years - we just "switched on" a near instantaneous information flow, planet-wide.
2023-12-13 12:49:29 <KipIngram   > And it's entirely unreegulated for the most part.
2023-12-13 12:49:43 <KipIngram   > For example, you can hop on the internet and lie your ass off pretty much with impunity.
2023-12-13 12:49:56 <KipIngram   > And if you're a persuasive person that can cause real issues.
2023-12-13 12:50:37 <slacko_user13052> well, regulation has always been a bit iffy - but especially early on the internet was nuts. This is somewhat related to what I was talking about with the equilibrium thing
2023-12-13 12:50:49 <KipIngram   > That was a problem when we invented the telegraph as well - yellow journalism erupted almost immediately.
2023-12-13 12:51:00 <KipIngram   > And it took a while to stabilize suitable libel laws to combat it.
2023-12-13 12:51:39 <slacko_user13052> yes, and lying and propoganda have been a thing since at least ancient Egypt..
2023-12-13 12:51:51 <KipIngram   > yeah - it'll never be "gone."
2023-12-13 12:52:24 <KipIngram   > Like you phrased it - we'll just "find an equilibrium" of sorts.
2023-12-13 12:52:29 <KipIngram   > Likely an ever-shifting one.
2023-12-13 12:53:37 <slacko_user13052> yes, although both the pace of advancement and the level of interest in it (for technology in general) look like they are cooling off.
2023-12-13 12:57:29 <slacko_user13052> And the 'AI' thing also needs to be considered. If everything you put online might get gobbled up by som glorified search engine which will present your work as its own when it isn't 'halucinating' there could be a pretty profound chilling effect on digital information exchange.
2023-12-13 12:57:47 <KipIngram   > Yeah, for sure.
2023-12-13 12:58:15 <KipIngram   > I'm not in the camp of people expecting AI to "wake up" and try to take over, but I still think we'll cause ourselves some real problems with it before we're done.
2023-12-13 12:58:28 <slacko_user13052> yeah, same.
2023-12-13 12:58:45 <thrig       > mostly by humans using AI to chase a quick buck, or to try to order society
2023-12-13 12:58:56 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2023-12-13 12:59:05 <KipIngram   > Or just generally dodge responsibility.
2023-12-13 12:59:15 <KipIngram   > Like leaving it to an AI to set criminal sentences.
2023-12-13 12:59:22 <slacko_user13052> heh
2023-12-13 12:59:56 <KipIngram   > What next?  Robot execution systems?
2023-12-13 13:00:31 <KipIngram   > There are certain things humans with emotions should have to step up and take the responsibility for, explicitly.
2023-12-13 13:00:36 <KipIngram   > Not saying they don't need doing.
2023-12-13 13:00:47 <KipIngram   > We just shouldn't dodge that "hard part."
2023-12-13 13:01:10 <slacko_user13052> well, the problem is that people just don;t understand computers, let alone 'AI' so thy don't know how to judge them effectively or use them safely
2023-12-13 13:02:13 <slacko_user13052> and, yes people already use technology to dodge fundamental responsibilities, which will presumably continue to get worse at least in the short term.