2024-02-08 18:47:40 <tillfur     > anybody here?
2024-02-08 19:20:12 <coyote      > maybe
2024-02-08 19:24:53 <crc         > we missed him by a little while
2024-02-08 19:26:40 <thrig       > patience, how long will that take
2024-02-08 19:39:40 <vms14       > crc missed who?
2024-02-08 19:39:54 <vms14       > i miss KipIngram, but seems he is around
2024-02-08 19:40:11 <Zarutian_iPad> tillfur came and went
2024-02-08 19:40:20 <crc         > tillfur asked if anyone was here, but left before anyone replied
2024-02-08 19:40:55 <vms14       > haha might think it's a dead channel
2024-02-08 19:46:43 <dsmith      > "I'm not dead yet"
2024-02-08 19:48:22 <dsmith      > So is anyone here using forth for anything in production?  Or anything interesting?
2024-02-08 19:50:18 <vms14       > only crc, who uses it's own forth implementation: retro-forth
2024-02-08 19:50:52 <vms14       > i'm just learning the basics, trying to finish the starting forth book
2024-02-08 19:51:25 <vms14       > there is a good forth code example?
2024-02-08 19:51:43 <vms14       > i was told good forth code reads like english
2024-02-08 19:52:02 <vms14       > good forth programmers choose their names wisely and their code is easy to read
2024-02-08 19:52:48 <user51_     > Seems like people have different perspectives on that
2024-02-08 19:53:14 <user51_     > Look for the c.l.f thread about fizzbuzz for some examples.
2024-02-08 19:55:59 <vms14       > well maybe i have been lied
2024-02-08 19:56:01 <user51_     > As for me, I'd say "Forth is personal".
2024-02-08 19:56:06 <crc         > I don't think that code needs to read like english, but readability does matter
2024-02-08 19:56:19 <vms14       > well, that's actually the best definition for forth
2024-02-08 19:56:26 <vms14       > is personal
2024-02-08 19:56:53 <vms14       > you do the stuff as you want, forth just gives you almost total control
2024-02-08 19:57:06 <vms14       > a freedom that is hard to find in other languages
2024-02-08 19:57:42 <user51_     > COBOL and LOLCODE are also supposedly close to English.
2024-02-08 19:58:20 <user51_     > Now that I think about it, it seems totally doable to have a forth interpret LOLCODE.
2024-02-08 19:59:29 <vms14       > for example the starting forth book says in chapter 12 that programming forth is more of an art than programming in any language
2024-02-08 19:59:48 <thrig       > "close to English" can be bad if you have to guess at what English is meant for say AppleScript
2024-02-08 20:00:52 <vms14       > and that good forth style includes: simplicity, a lot of short words rather than few large ones, well chosen names and well laid blocks of code clearly commented
2024-02-08 20:06:48 <vms14       > i'm just a noob learning forth so i cannot really tell nothing about forth
2024-02-08 20:07:18 <vms14       > the only thing i can say for now is that learning forth feels like learning programming again
2024-02-08 20:07:40 <vms14       > i had that feeling with lisp, but here the feeling is much stronger
2024-02-08 20:08:03 <vms14       > i barely have an idea of what i'm doing when writing forth code
2024-02-08 20:08:24 <vms14       > yet for me it looks like forth has a lot of hidden power
2024-02-08 20:08:33 <vms14       > and i want to see it
2024-02-08 20:09:59 <dsmith      > I used it for a few projects in the early '90s
2024-02-08 20:11:53 <dsmith      > The thing that made forth really "click" for me was a bumper sticker comic in a forth dimensions: "forth love? if honk then"
2024-02-08 20:12:12 <KipIngram   > :-)
2024-02-08 20:30:30 <user51_     > KipIngram: Nice to have you back  :)
2024-02-08 21:23:28 <vms14       > where does the power of forth reside?
2024-02-08 21:24:27 <vms14       > is forth as powerful as i think? i feel it's similar to the power of lisp, or even more since it can be "easily" written by yourself
2024-02-08 21:25:30 <vms14       > is forth a language hard to master?
2024-02-08 21:26:25 <vms14       > i wonder why forth couldn't escape from embedded devices and alike, since it seems people choose another language for other tasks
2024-02-08 21:32:03 <vms14       > i'm overrating it?
2024-02-08 21:37:07 <KipIngram   > I think Lisp is "more powerful" in a computer science sense, but Forth offers more flexible control over the hardware resources of your system, while still being capable of enough "grace and elegance" to be regarded as a high level language.
2024-02-08 21:37:33 <KipIngram   > It really depends on what you care about - if you're interested in certain things, you'd prefer Lisp; if other things then Forth.
2024-02-08 21:38:06 <KipIngram   > I actually think of them as having similar degrees of "inner simplicity."
2024-02-08 21:38:37 <KipIngram   > Lisp draws much less distinction between code and data, whereas those are fairly separate things in Forth.
2024-02-08 21:38:44 <thrig       > there's a debate going on over in scheme over "batteries included" or "keep it simple"
2024-02-08 21:38:56 <KipIngram   > user51_: Thanks; just been a busy few days.
2024-02-08 21:39:47 <KipIngram   > Between work, distractions, and wretched American politics I was just looking in other directions for a bit.
2024-02-08 21:41:04 <vms14       > well i loved lisp so much because of metaprogramming, i like to do stuff by myself and to create my own tools and alike. lisp just helps you a lot in building your own stuff
2024-02-08 21:41:34 <vms14       > but once i discovered forth i've lost interest on lisp in favor of forth
2024-02-08 21:41:43 <dsmith      > Lisp (Scheme actually, I don't know CL much) and Forth are *very* similar to me in many ways, but violently different in others.
2024-02-08 21:42:22 <vms14       > today i don't give a fuck about lisp cause my attention is in forth
2024-02-08 21:42:41 <dsmith      > How you work with the language. How you build up code. Making DLS, are very similar.
2024-02-08 21:42:45 <vms14       > like forth has what i wanted from lisp and more
2024-02-08 21:43:27 <dsmith      > For example, you can define new control structures in both
2024-02-08 21:48:33 <KipIngram   > dsmith: Yes, that sounds much like how I see it.
2024-02-08 21:49:12 <KipIngram   > And I'm a hardware / embedded guy by training, so Forth just "speaks" to me more.
2024-02-08 21:49:31 <KipIngram   > It really feels like the most natural way one could approach embedded work.
2024-02-08 21:50:41 <crc         > re: forth being relegated largely to embedded things; there are a bunch of factors in this
2024-02-08 21:51:18 <crc         > forth is well suited for an individual or small team, but there's not really any tooling or established practice for scaling this to larger groups
2024-02-08 21:51:19 <dsmith      > KipIngram, Yep!
2024-02-08 21:51:49 <crc         > there's not a really widely agreed-on default system, so little differences can make porting across systems annoying even among those targeting ANS or similar standards
2024-02-08 21:52:17 <KipIngram   > crc: Yes, and to some extent its very philoosoph is counter to such standardization.
2024-02-08 21:52:30 <KipIngram   > With its emphasis on "custom tailoring" every application.
2024-02-08 21:52:42 <crc         > forth traditionally hasn't had good host interactions; it always feels a bit disconnected from the rest of the system (this is especially true on modern gui platforms & web stuff)
2024-02-08 21:52:52 <KipIngram   > Maybe it appeals to people with a rebellious streak.
2024-02-08 21:53:20 <KipIngram   > And yes - I've never seen a "graceful" Forth GUI.
2024-02-08 21:53:53 <KipIngram   > Hasn't stopped me from trying to imagine one, but it sure would change a lot of things.
2024-02-08 21:55:50 <thrig       > also history and the unix+c thing happened
2024-02-08 21:56:13 <crc         > I dabble with GUI stuff. I've not hit on anything that feels right so far though.
2024-02-08 21:58:07 <crc         > I always end up preferring text interfaces over GUI for most purposes
2024-02-08 22:02:25 <vms14       > Forth is the ultimate language for building extensions. Programming in Forth is generating higher levels of abstractions, until you have a language well fitted to solve your problem.
2024-02-08 22:02:39 <dsmith      > Yep
2024-02-08 22:02:45 <vms14       > i guess this is mostly what i like from it
2024-02-08 22:02:55 <vms14       > https://bernd-paysan.de/why-forth.html
2024-02-08 22:02:59 <vms14       > comes from there
2024-02-08 22:04:01 <vms14       > it's mainly what i liked from lisp too
2024-02-08 22:04:45 <vms14       > how the language is extended in order to become a language that feels like it was made for the task you have to solve
2024-02-08 22:05:40 <vms14       > you have a tiny program and an extended language, which is different from the approach most programming languages take
2024-02-08 22:05:50 <vms14       > yet in lisp this also happens
2024-02-08 22:06:10 <vms14       > if the language is missing something you just add it
2024-02-08 22:06:23 <vms14       > in other languages you fuck yourself
2024-02-08 22:09:28 <vms14       > haha special purpose wheels
2024-02-08 22:09:55 <vms14       > There aren't much libaries in Forth, as Forthers like it more to reinvent the wheel instead of designing one and make this one reusable. Special purpose wheels tend to be written much faster, use lesser resources, and fit to the applications.
2024-02-08 22:11:03 <vms14       > :0
2024-02-08 22:11:05 <vms14       > So IMHO Forth is an elitary language, designed and written for the best, or gifted, not for the masses.
2024-02-08 22:12:15 <vms14       > don't know what to think about this since i did not learn forth properly to argue about anything yet
2024-02-08 22:12:59 <vms14       > but could explain why forth is so unknown by the world
2024-02-08 22:13:32 <vms14       > i've also seen this kind of claim with lisp
2024-02-08 22:14:50 <vms14       > i agree with this part though
2024-02-08 22:14:52 <vms14       > It is often cheaper to rewrite a program once you understood what you really wanted instead of living with something that is broken by design.
2024-02-08 22:15:17 <vms14       > i prefer to start from scratch than to go patching stuff
2024-02-08 22:16:01 <dsmith      > It's easier to hold stuff in your yead that way.  Easier to make new things than to learn soemthing that already exists.
2024-02-08 22:16:13 <dsmith      > s/yead/head/
2024-02-08 22:25:37 <vms14       > haha i like that phrase
2024-02-08 22:25:38 <vms14       > if C gives you enough rope to hang yourself, Forth is a flamethrower crawling with cobras.
2024-02-08 22:25:53 <vms14       > https://hackaday.com/2017/01/27/forth-the-hackers-language/
2024-02-08 23:30:41 <vms14       > why is FORGET marked as obsolete word in the forth standard?
2024-02-08 23:30:48 <vms14       > what replaces it?
2024-02-08 23:31:13 <vms14       > https://www.forth.org/svfig/Win32Forth/DPANS94.txt
2024-02-08 23:33:55 <vms14       > oh, marker