2024-06-10 01:03:47 <rendar      > zelgomer, dunno, rand.pop_alphabet is used in python, and somewhere else
2024-06-10 01:50:44 <zelgomer    > if you like _ then use _
2024-06-10 01:52:11 <zelgomer    > i'm used to it because i'm primarily a c guy, but tbh when i really think about it, i tend to convince myself that i prefer - when it's an option
2024-06-10 02:56:50 <KipIngram   > You  know, I knew the joysticks on game controllers were analog inputs, but I didn't realize that the lower triggers on the front were as well.
2024-06-10 11:38:41 <divya       > The terminal stuff has been so much in C damn. I mean it explains since the origin was with the UNIX.
2024-06-10 12:03:06 <veltas      > What do you mean 'so much in C'?
2024-06-10 12:04:46 <divya       > Every library seems to have been in C.
2024-06-10 12:08:14 <veltas      > Oh yeah
2024-06-10 12:08:29 <veltas      > C is the defacto standard systems language
2024-06-10 12:08:32 <veltas      > That and C++
2024-06-10 12:08:44 <veltas      > So all low-level OS / systems stuff is in C or C++
2024-06-10 12:09:01 <divya       > Yeah, but I feel they could be done better in Forth, no?
2024-06-10 12:09:04 <veltas      > Doesn't mean you can't use Forth
2024-06-10 12:09:57 <veltas      > The ABI on all platforms is defined for architectures so you can use any language, even assembly, with the system functions
2024-06-10 12:10:02 <veltas      > Even if they're implemented in C
2024-06-10 12:10:21 <veltas      > C is a good way of presenting that interface
2024-06-10 12:10:33 <veltas      > If Forth is really a good choice for the system then that's on Forth programmers to prove by implementing a system
2024-06-10 12:11:06 <divya       > Hmm, so I should use the C ABI. I guess gForth already does have C FFI
2024-06-10 12:12:05 <veltas      > You don't need to use the C ABI for all your words, by the way
2024-06-10 12:12:11 <veltas      > Just need a FFI
2024-06-10 12:12:28 <veltas      > Like gforth yeah
2024-06-10 12:13:57 <divya       > Hmm would reimplementation be of anything better?
2024-06-10 12:19:38 <veltas      > Depends what you're trying to do
2024-06-10 12:19:49 <veltas      > If you want to write applications for an OS, then reimplementing the libraries seems a bit pointless
2024-06-10 12:20:06 <veltas      > As the OS is sort of like a big library anyway
2024-06-10 12:21:00 <veltas      > But you can do what you want, most of us are just doing this recreationally
2024-06-10 12:28:31 <divya       > Hmm
2024-06-10 12:51:59 <KipIngram   > divya: Forth could do all of that, but you're biting off an awful lot of work.  I think part of the problem is that the really ideal approach is a completely different setup (i.e., not just "implement the existing interface in Forth"), so when you're done with it what do you have?  You've got a terminal interface, but nothing that knows how to talk to it.
2024-06-10 12:52:27 <KipIngram   > If you do emulate the current interface to it all, then you're not really doing things the way Chuck says to - you're "overdesigning" to some extent.
2024-06-10 12:52:38 <KipIngram   > Not solving the problem in the simplest possible way.
2024-06-10 13:14:17 <veltas      > Well you can bind to C interface or define another binary interface that's easy to port to different platforms
2024-06-10 13:14:49 <veltas      > But defining that tastefully is not too easy
2024-06-10 13:25:11 <divya       > KipIngram: That seems fair.
2024-06-10 14:47:54 <zelgomer    > what language a library is written in shouldn't matter so much to you, what matters is the abi. if you're targetting a platform with a c ecosystem, then it makes sense to deliver your lib with a c abi.
2024-06-10 15:16:57 <divya       > I am just targetting to make some applications for the UNIX/Linux terminals mostly
2024-06-10 15:20:58 <zelgomer    > yeah, sorry, i meant the royal "you". what i was trying to say was that yes, libraries you find on unix-like OSes should have C abis regardless of what language they're written in. it is the native and lowest common denominator interface that all applications can bind with.
2024-06-10 15:29:48 <divya       > Indeed.
2024-06-10 16:05:30 <KipIngram   > I'm hoping someday to build a system from scratch (processor in FPGA, my own graphics and storage hardware, etc.)  And part of that will be to write all the software, so I'd be doing some sort of terminal package at some point, in Forth.  And then I'd need to write the apps that use it.
2024-06-10 16:05:43 <KipIngram   > I probably won't even try to start, other than thinking about it, until I'm retired.
2024-06-10 16:06:11 <KipIngram   > Obviously such a thing won't rival modern processors in speed, but if I can get it "good enough to pleasantly use," for a variety of activities I'll be really happy.
2024-06-10 16:06:22 <lispmacs[work]> how close are you to retirement?
2024-06-10 16:06:26 <KipIngram   > Doing IRC would likely be an early application, since it's console.
2024-06-10 16:06:42 <KipIngram   > I'm 61.  I'm thinking 5-6 more years.
2024-06-10 16:57:57 <rendar      > KipIngram, if are you even planning a retirement trip in Italy let me know! :)
2024-06-10 17:02:22 <KipIngram   > :-)  I will.
2024-06-10 17:02:31 <KipIngram   > There are a few places I'd like to see potentially.
2024-06-10 17:02:41 <rendar      > which ones?
2024-06-10 17:02:55 <KipIngram   > Historically significant first world countries?
2024-06-10 17:03:01 <KipIngram   > Italy would qualify.
2024-06-10 17:03:09 <rendar      > cool
2024-06-10 17:04:01 <rendar      > we can eat the best pizza + pasta you ever had in your life and test my Forth!
2024-06-10 17:06:32 <KipIngram   > :-)  Sounds groovy.  What part of the country do you live in?
2024-06-10 21:14:56 <veltas      > Pizza, pasta and forth, think I'll invite myself along to that