2024-06-11 10:09:53 <veltas      > Anyone going to EuroForth this year?  https://euro.theforth.net/
2024-06-11 10:17:26 <veltas      > I've got my own flavour of PACKAGE now, based on VOCABULARY and has a separate word for resuming the module if it's already defined
2024-06-11 10:17:46 <veltas      > PACKAGE automatically resumes a definition if it already exists, but I just think that's extremely janky
2024-06-11 10:18:23 <veltas      > So I've got MODULE/RESUME-MODULE, to END-MODULE, and EXTERNAL/DEFINITIONS controls visibility
2024-06-11 11:20:49 <veltas      > To be clear, I won't be going, even though it's only 3 hours away.  Can't sort anything out for child, also it's not exactly cheap.
2024-06-11 11:42:36 <rendar      > veltas, are you from UK?
2024-06-11 11:44:17 <GeDaMo      > I like "Spam stop Please compute the following assignment and enter the result: 2 dup + ." :P
2024-06-11 11:47:57 <veltas      > rendar: Yeah
2024-06-11 11:48:19 <rendar      > yeah ~600 is not cheap
2024-06-11 12:56:04 <veltas      > Zlib licence just about fits into a block
2024-06-11 12:56:18 <veltas      > Anyone know any other good open source licenses that fit in a block?
2024-06-11 12:56:28 <veltas      > MIT just doesn't fit
2024-06-11 13:03:36 <hello-operator> `This work is placed in the public domain`
2024-06-11 13:05:21 <GeDaMo      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
2024-06-11 13:13:33 <veltas      > I don't do public domain dedications anymore because I get harassed for using them
2024-06-11 13:14:41 <veltas      > and supposedly they don't hold up in some countries as well as maintaining limited copyright like e.g. MIT
2024-06-11 13:16:35 <veltas      > Also I do think that MIT/zlib/etc are more useful because they guarantee the code is understood to be 'owned', and the owner wants it to be 'open'.
2024-06-11 13:19:50 <veltas      > The hot/sweaty debate is about whether something like MIT or GPL is 'better' or more 'useful'
2024-06-11 13:20:15 <veltas      > But I'm all too aware that lots of people are outright allergic to GPL so that's the main reason I avoid it
2024-06-11 13:24:13 <hello-operator> You get harassed for using public domain? :O
2024-06-11 13:24:25 <hello-operator> By whom!?
2024-06-11 13:24:44 <veltas      > Not even kidding, people are crazy
2024-06-11 13:24:50 <veltas      > Licenses are very political apparently
2024-06-11 13:26:13 <hello-operator> Yeah, but you're up against a bunch of dweebs with noodle arms, what are they going to do? Write an angry tweet?
2024-06-11 13:26:30 <hello-operator> XD
2024-06-11 13:47:23 <drakonis    > https://xorvoid.com/forsp.html how neat
2024-06-11 13:59:02 <hello-operator> I tend to use MIT/Unlicense/WTFPL/Public Domain. But none of them fit into a screen.
2024-06-11 14:00:01 <GeDaMo      > drakonis: indeed, neat
2024-06-11 14:03:10 <veltas      > hello-operator: I think WTFPL fits into a screen with different formatting
2024-06-11 14:03:17 <veltas      > And maybe others too
2024-06-11 14:07:50 <hello-operator> How about "DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW"? That fits in a single block.
2024-06-11 14:08:30 <hello-operator> GPL is for commies anyway
2024-06-11 14:09:14 <veltas      > I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that it's not actually very easy or possible to dedicate stuff to public domain, or write your own copyright licence
2024-06-11 14:09:31 <veltas      > So it makes sense to use well-known licenses with precedent, that fit your criteria
2024-06-11 14:09:52 <veltas      > But I could just be paranoid, and defending a load of lawyers trying to self-justify
2024-06-11 14:12:13 <hello-operator> Yeah, I know, I'm just joking. You're right. I know Germany does not recognize the Public Domain, but I also know SQLite (released under Public Domain) is used there and widely, so it might be technically true but I don't think it actually matters in practice.
2024-06-11 14:13:26 <hello-operator> https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/5736/sqlite-is-illegal-in-germany-really
2024-06-11 14:14:04 <veltas      > Just read their page on copyright https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
2024-06-11 14:14:17 <veltas      > Reading it confirms in my head that it's a lot of trouble to do it that way
2024-06-11 14:14:36 <veltas      > Like Germans literally need to pay for right to use it with a proper licence lawfully
2024-06-11 14:14:53 <veltas      > Whereas they don't need to do that for projects with e.g. MIT Licence, so it seems crufty
2024-06-11 14:20:54 <veltas      > It definitely matters, because companies, more than ever, now have to justify all their uses of licensed software.  Eventually this will likely cause issues in companies that operate under German law.
2024-06-11 14:22:15 <veltas      > It mean seem like German pedantry but there is a fundamental problem with public domain dedications, that they are dishonest, because even in countries where the dedication is sufficient as a license, the copyright is still owned
2024-06-11 14:22:25 <veltas      > so it's not actually public domain
2024-06-11 14:23:31 <veltas      > The decision about ownership is unfortunately something controlled by states, and since states don't provide a vector for that dedication, it's not possible to 100% waive ownership
2024-06-11 14:23:52 <veltas      > The next-best thing is to have a licence that aligns with this reality while being as permissive as possible
2024-06-11 14:29:49 <dave0       > i published some old code that just says "unlimited distribution"
2024-06-11 14:35:48 <veltas      > So no license to change/modify?
2024-06-11 14:39:45 <dave0       > not sure
2024-06-11 14:40:26 <dave0       > does unlimited mean you can distribute modified copies?
2024-06-11 14:51:42 <crc         > veltas: ISC license (which I use for retro & konilo) fits in a block: http://forth.works/share/hvRiGIf3Pp.txt
2024-06-11 14:53:18 <veltas      > dave0: Probably depends on the court you sue me at
2024-06-11 14:54:07 <crc         > dave0: unlimited distribution does not generally imply a permission to modify, at least under USA law
2024-06-11 14:54:26 <veltas      > This is the issue with having a badly defined license, if you own the code then you can always sue me for copyright infringment, unless we have some license in place.  If you say 'unlimited distribution' I think you could argue it means unlimited copies
2024-06-11 14:54:35 <veltas      > rather than also changing
2024-06-11 14:57:17 <veltas      > crc: Very nice, Debian/OSI-approved, FSF-approved, fits in a screen; I will use this going forwards!
2024-06-11 14:59:18 <crc         > I'd prefer to use public domain, but as you noted it's not really an option under current copyright law in various countries
2024-06-11 15:03:47 <veltas      > I would like to have a license that just says 'I will not sue you for using this software', that would be ideal, it just isn't that simple in reality right now
2024-06-11 15:04:11 <veltas      > Or rather whether or not it is that simple will cost me a fortune in legal bills to find out
2024-06-11 16:20:11 <rendar      > if i name my lang as SomethingForth and i release it commercially, could Forth, Inc. sue me?
2024-06-11 16:22:55 <crc         > "SwiftForth®, SwiftX®, and SwiftOS™ are trademarks of FORTH, Inc. ... The phrase “FORTH, Inc.”, the graphical logo, and polyFORTH™ are trademarks of FORTH, Inc."; they don't appear to claim Forth itself as a trademark
2024-06-11 16:25:26 <thrig       > check with a lawyer, though forth inc probably aren't nintendo?
2024-06-11 16:25:56 <GeDaMo      > Are there not already many SomethingForths?
2024-06-11 16:26:17 <rendar      > thrig, i agree
2024-06-11 16:26:30 <rendar      > but about i erase any Forth word, but they are still in old commits into the git repo?
2024-06-11 16:27:31 <crc         > I think they'd have a hard time enforcing a trademark on [something]forth, given the long history of forth variants named like that, and they haven't pursued any trademark enforcement onthem as far as I can tell
2024-06-11 16:30:44 <thrig       > but they don't need to, if they've got more money and lawyers and time and ire
2024-06-11 16:39:50 <crc         > https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=81019009&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch indicates there was a trademark on FORTH that was canceled in 1982
2024-06-11 16:40:22 <crc         > a few systems (like SwiftForth and arrayFORTH) do have registered and active trademarks
2024-06-11 16:41:01 <rendar      > what about i changed name a lot of commits ago, and the word Forth appears only in old files into the git repo?
2024-06-11 16:46:42 <crc         > shouldn't be an issue; Forth isn't currently trademarked for computer language usage, and has enough history to be considered generic at this point (at least under USA law, I'm much less versed on other areas)
2024-06-11 16:47:34 <veltas      > thrig: IANA but you need to actually enforce trademarks or you lose them
2024-06-11 16:48:36 <veltas      > So given that 'Forth' has been used unquestionably by many people and groups I don't think there's any chance they could enforce it, if they even claimed to own 'Forth' in context of programming/computers
2024-06-11 16:58:49 <veltas      > crc: I'm not sure if Forth Inc's trademark on Forth was ever properly active, they never filed to say what goods/services it applied to
2024-06-11 17:01:09 <crc         > I've heard that they had abandoned the attempt to trademark it back in the 80's
2024-06-11 17:03:37 <veltas      > Forth would have died sooner if they had defended a trademark on the name of the language, of which every implementation was essentially like free advertising for Forth Inc
2024-06-11 17:04:17 <veltas      > Interesting that polyForth's trademark is dead
2024-06-11 17:04:53 <veltas      > I think my next forth will be called polyforth :P
2024-06-11 17:05:10 <veltas      > Na I wouldn't really do that
2024-06-11 17:09:33 <olle        > Phorph
2024-06-11 17:13:48 <zelgomer    > Thorf
2024-06-11 17:30:47 <dlowe       > huh. Man, I'm going to have to think about this one for a while https://xorvoid.com/forsp.html
2024-06-11 17:33:55 <GeDaMo      > "Linear Logic and Permutation Stacks--The Forth Shall Be First" https://web.archive.org/web/20200112152842/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ForthStack.html
2024-06-11 19:27:14 <veltas      > I was very flattered by a comment on the hackernews thread about forsp https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40648375
2024-06-11 19:27:55 <veltas      > "I copy your code below, it's so terse and marvellous and I don't want to deprive anyone who assumes otherwise and doesn't click on your link"
2024-06-11 19:28:24 <veltas      > Of course there's many such examples in here, it's Forth that's marvellous, but I was flattered all the same and will take full credit for it
2024-06-11 19:28:28 <veltas      > and get it framed
2024-06-11 19:31:15 <veltas      > I stole KipIngram's idea really
2024-06-11 19:31:22 <GeDaMo      > It's always nice to be appreciated :P
2024-06-11 20:17:19 <KipIngram   > That... doesn't really look like what my { and } do, but maybe I'm misreading it, and in any case if something I did or said helped you have a good idea I'm glad.  :-)
2024-06-11 21:10:21 <veltas      > The cool thing about my syntax is actually that it adds nothing at all, so you can just define it as an empty immediate word eventually and the training wheels just come off
2024-06-11 21:10:30 <veltas      > And then you don't use it at all
2024-06-11 21:15:08 <veltas      > This is nice https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/potato.html
2024-06-11 21:27:01 <KipIngram   > Oh, that is interesting.  I just achieved contact with that controller a couple days ago and have been scratching my head thinking about interesting ways I might use it.  There one is...