2024-06-28 00:16:07 <vms14       > do forthwrigths have the need of writing everything by themselves?
2024-06-28 00:16:39 <vms14       > like for example if you are going to make a website, you want to make your own server, your own libraries and you end wanting doing your own language?
2024-06-28 00:17:08 <vms14       > i do have this sort of problem with everything i want to do and this is in part why forth seems the solution to my problems
2024-06-28 00:18:21 <vms14       > because it seems a language i could manage to implement, or at least i can steal some of its ideas to make a language easy to implement
2024-06-28 00:49:51 <zelgomer    > vms14: imo, that's the reason to use forth. if you're not going to diy there are better options freely available.
2024-06-28 00:56:44 <crc         > vms14: that describes me pretty well. I don't *need* to write everything myself, but I prefer to at least be able to fully understand and maintain the tools I use whenever possible.
2024-06-28 00:57:27 <crc         > and I do mostly use things I've written myself, for my own use
2024-06-28 01:19:38 <KipIngram   > vms14: It's basically the modus operenti advocated by Chuck, and an awful lot of us "like it quite a lot."
2024-06-28 01:19:42 <KipIngram   > Even if we don't always do it.
2024-06-28 01:19:48 <KipIngram   > The idea is pleasing.
2024-06-28 01:20:20 <KipIngram   > Chuck's argument is that each problem should be solved optimally, without force-fitting libraries that were created without the full problem spec in mind etc.
2024-06-28 01:20:29 <KipIngram   > Write exactly the code you need and absolutely nothing more.
2024-06-28 01:20:40 <KipIngram   > No baggage, no waste, etc.
2024-06-28 01:20:51 <KipIngram   > I think it fits best onto embedded programming.
2024-06-28 01:21:07 <KipIngram   > If you're writing an OS for a computer, then by definition you're likely planning to do multiple general things with it.
2024-06-28 01:22:10 <KipIngram   > For me part of the "I want to do it myself" inclination comes frm the fact that almost always people who provide things for you have some sort of ulterior motive.  Get you into their ecosystem, or whatever.
2024-06-28 01:22:19 <KipIngram   > But THEIR goal is not the solution of your problem.
2024-06-28 01:22:34 <KipIngram   > And the further up the food chain you go, the more of that you get.
2024-06-28 01:22:47 <KipIngram   > Microsoft doesn't make its decisions based on best service to the customer.
2024-06-28 01:22:55 <KipIngram   > More like best exploitation of the customers.
2024-06-28 01:23:27 <KipIngram   > You can't really trust any of them to privacy or any such thing.
2024-06-28 01:38:04 <KipIngram   > to protect your privacy
2024-06-28 02:24:46 <traveler    > vms14: Like KipIngram said, the idea is pleasing. I'll add that having total control over your tools is very empowering. You don't have to wait for Salesforce to add a feature for your niche use-case. You can *use* the machine, not *get used* by a software manufacturer.
2024-06-28 02:25:07 <traveler    > That said, I'm only a dabbler. I still use tons of stuff that other folks created.
2024-06-28 02:26:27 <traveler    > I'm using weechat on Debian right now. I can't really imagine writing my own OS, but I could write my own IRC client if that's what I wanted.
2024-06-28 03:17:36 <KipIngram   > Well said.  I think I have enough knowledge to put all the pieces of an OS together, but mustering the time and energy is a different matter.  I think about it, but we'll see if I ever get it done.  In any case it would be a "basic" OS - nothing like all the bloaty bells and whistles in the major OS offerings.
2024-06-28 11:19:40 <veltas      > KipIngram: Forth is already an OS in a sense
2024-06-28 11:19:51 <veltas      > I've got a half-written article about this
2024-06-28 11:22:21 <veltas      > What's a cheap simpler computer that we can all get and develop a full Forth OS on, which has all the necessary basics e.g. Ethernet so you can access internet or write a server, serial or video+keyboard access, maybe even a mouse
2024-06-28 11:22:50 <veltas      > I don't know what the most realistic avenue
2024-06-28 11:22:51 <veltas      > is
2024-06-28 11:23:02 <veltas      > But it's definitely not a retro-style computer because those are too small
2024-06-28 11:23:10 <veltas      > in terms of RAM etc
2024-06-28 11:45:04 <GeDaMo      > Pi Zero W?
2024-06-28 11:47:54 <GeDaMo      > WiFi rather than Ethernet but I think you can add external Ethernet devices
2024-06-28 11:52:32 <veltas      > Ethernet probably makes more sense for a general purpose computer / server
2024-06-28 11:52:39 <veltas      > https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805346421328.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt
2024-06-28 11:52:44 <veltas      > Something like this maybe?
2024-06-28 11:54:02 <veltas      > If we're going to write a whole webstack e.g. like vms has been banging on about this is a sensible route
2024-06-28 12:01:56 <veltas      > Arguably should just use telnet for basic terminal, at boot with default config or if an administration jumper is present
2024-06-28 12:02:13 <veltas      > But serial will be easier for development
2024-06-28 12:02:44 <veltas      > firewalled of course
2024-06-28 12:54:10 <gorobbert   > I have been considering this for a while https://milkv.io/duo-s
2024-06-28 13:48:00 <veltas      > Seems like you get a lot more with the aliexpress one
2024-06-28 13:48:29 <veltas      > The Milk V Duo-S looks like a great board, just not one I'd choose to make a general purpose computer from
2024-06-28 13:48:55 <veltas      > They cost a similar amount somehow, and the aliexpress one is just a lot more powerful, larger, more connectivity etc
2024-06-28 13:49:13 <veltas      > The Duo-S is correct for some embedded apps probably
2024-06-28 14:10:29 <crc         > veltas: I've been working with a Teensy4.1 for my current forth computer project (https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy41.html)
2024-06-28 14:17:20 <veltas      > Again I think geared more towards either retro computing or embedded computing
2024-06-28 14:17:33 <veltas      > I'm more interested in a computer's computer
2024-06-28 14:28:24 <crc         > what resources are needed?
2024-06-28 14:29:11 <GeDaMo      > USB (keyboard, mouse) display (probably HDMI), storage
2024-06-28 14:29:25 <veltas      > Not sure about display though
2024-06-28 14:29:28 <veltas      > Serial might be enough
2024-06-28 14:29:52 <veltas      > Depends on whether we want graphics
2024-06-28 14:30:40 <veltas      > I suppose we do
2024-06-28 14:30:53 <GeDaMo      > I suppose you could have an LCD controlled directly from the device
2024-06-28 14:32:37 <crc         > Apart from serial, an LCD is what I've been experimenting with, along with a PS2 keyboard (haven't tried interfacing to a mouse yet)
2024-06-28 14:34:31 <crc         > I also have a https://www.tindie.com/products/lilygo/lilygo-ttgo-vga-v14-controller/ but have not set up a development toolchain for it yet
2024-06-28 14:35:20 <crc         > (I'm planning to see if I can make use of this to provide i/o functionality, and run the forth system on the teensy)
2024-06-28 14:37:12 <veltas      > Interesting
2024-06-28 14:44:37 <veltas      > That VGA thing is quite cool, but it's more like an old framebuffer + PS/2 I/O
2024-06-28 14:44:45 <veltas      > It's definitely more on the retro end
2024-06-28 14:45:37 <GeDaMo      > How easy is it to get displays with VGA?
2024-06-28 14:45:51 <veltas      > Quite easy
2024-06-28 14:46:10 <veltas      > I am more interested in working on a 'real computer' that's just open, with more normal interfaces
2024-06-28 14:46:12 <KipIngram   > veltas: Right, it absolutely is, or at least is "intended to be" as far as its philosophy goes.  I've just never written one that goes that deep - I've only done systems that run under a parent OS.
2024-06-28 14:46:27 <KipIngram   > But there's nothing about it that wouldn't go the rest of the way.
2024-06-28 14:47:03 <veltas      > That's why I want to do something with e.g. that aliexpress abomination
2024-06-28 14:47:30 <KipIngram   > Regarding small RAM and so on, that's been one of the things that's consumed the most of my thoughts on this new project.  I want something portable, which means it needs to have a design that can readily take advantage of lots of RAM, but will also still work on the smaller microcontroller boards.
2024-06-28 14:47:55 <KipIngram   > I'm not trying to go so far as to support the really tiny ones, though - I do presume that I'll have enough RAM for a complete self-contained system.
2024-06-28 14:48:32 <KipIngram   > gorobbert: I've also looked at the Milk V Duo.  Interesting and nicely affordable gadget.
2024-06-28 14:48:54 <crc         > GeDaMo: VGA is pretty easy, there are VGA to HDMI adapters as well (I use these on a lot of machines at work)
2024-06-28 14:49:12 <KipIngram   > Yeah, VGA looks like little more than bit banging, really.
2024-06-28 14:49:39 <KipIngram   > With lots of opportunities for hardware acceleration, with an appropriate CPLD or something.
2024-06-28 14:50:53 <veltas      > KipIngram: The whole small vs large RAM thing is a "YAGNI" problem, you're going to solve problems that don't need solving
2024-06-28 14:51:05 <veltas      > Embedded and general computing aren't the same problems
2024-06-28 14:51:16 <KipIngram   > I know.
2024-06-28 14:51:46 <KipIngram   > The solutions don't all necessarily have to be in the out-of-the-box system.  I just want them to be within reasonable reach.
2024-06-28 14:52:14 <KipIngram   > Also, re: VGA, when I say I hope to build a system of my own someday, including graphics, storage, etc., that will probably mean something akin to VGA for the display.
2024-06-28 14:52:33 <KipIngram   > I don't have any real visions of trying to get GPU level capabilities with something I design myself.
2024-06-28 14:52:57 <KipIngram   > So I won't ever be playing games and so on on it.
2024-06-28 14:53:01 <veltas      > I would rely on vector instructions + video controller
2024-06-28 14:53:06 <veltas      > For graphics
2024-06-28 14:53:26 <KipIngram   > But I don't want to have outside designed hardware in that system.
2024-06-28 14:53:30 <KipIngram   > I want to build it ALL.
2024-06-28 14:53:40 <KipIngram   > Including the processor.
2024-06-28 14:53:54 <veltas      > That's definitely not my goal
2024-06-28 14:54:09 <KipIngram   > I imagine it's not a goal for many people, and it's really kind of a silly goal.
2024-06-28 14:54:33 <KipIngram   > It's just something that I feel like is within my reach and I'd like to prove it to myself.
2024-06-28 14:54:35 <veltas      > I'm more interested in seeing a "Forth OS" than working on HW, which to be fair I don't know anything about
2024-06-28 14:54:58 <KipIngram   > Like traveler said last night - it's just pleasing.
2024-06-28 14:55:22 <veltas      > Whereas I'm a bit of a journeyman in SW so will focus on that
2024-06-28 14:55:27 <KipIngram   > Sure, I understand.  That's the nice thing about Forth, though, you can follow it in so many directions.
2024-06-28 14:55:45 <veltas      > I'd like to play with HW some time, but not for something grand
2024-06-28 14:56:04 <KipIngram   > I don't know if I'd even claim journeyman status on SW.  Maybe still just a fairly cometent apprentice.
2024-06-28 14:56:16 <KipIngram   > I can muck with it enough to be dangerous.
2024-06-28 14:56:24 <KipIngram   > competent
2024-06-28 14:57:06 <KipIngram   > I know my way around digital logic really well, though - that's the part of the game I came up through.
2024-06-28 14:57:52 <KipIngram   > And now I've gotten this work experience that exposed a lot of the "tricks" re: flash data storage to me, so I think I could make a pretty good SSD.
2024-06-28 14:59:17 <veltas      > I definitely describe myself as an expert I just don't want to boast
2024-06-28 14:59:27 <veltas      > I'm sure there's plenty of people who can disprove that claim
2024-06-28 14:59:31 <veltas      > And lots who will confirm it
2024-06-28 14:59:35 <veltas      > Depends on who you work with
2024-06-28 14:59:50 <veltas      > But I've just got no reason to 'sell' myself in here :P
2024-06-28 15:00:13 <GeDaMo      > https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/on-microsd-problems/on-hacking-microsd-cards/
2024-06-28 15:20:55 <KipIngram   > We're all getting along well enough in the world, which implies we're good enough at something to do that.  :-)
2024-06-28 15:50:35 <veltas      > Pfft don't know about that lol
2024-06-28 15:51:27 <KipIngram   > I guess more is always nice.  :-)
2024-06-28 15:55:14 <veltas      > Right now enjoying Windows 11 at work which occasionally fucks up the whole USB stack and I have to force restart
2024-06-28 15:55:31 <veltas      > By holding power button I mean because my keyboard stops working
2024-06-28 15:55:43 <veltas      > I guess I need to see if there's a PS/2 keyboard laying around somewhere
2024-06-28 15:58:08 <veltas      > Can't even press power button to shutdown now, it does a fake shutdown
2024-06-28 15:58:25 <veltas      > Have to hold it for a proper reset
2024-06-28 16:36:20 <KipIngram   > I had to power button my notebook a few days ago.  It got itself into some sort of a snarl and my battery percentage started dropping like a rock, even plugged in.
2024-06-28 17:05:32 <crc         > I'm dreading when my work machine gets replaced with one running Windows 11
2024-06-28 17:33:18 <MrMobius    > I'm just hoping it's less shit by the time windows 10 is eol
2024-06-28 17:35:11 <crc         > I'd go back to Win7 if I could. I already dislike Win10, and my little experience w/Win11 hasn't been good.
2024-06-28 17:36:13 <GeDaMo      > https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-11-is-now-automatically-enabling-onedrive-folder-backup-without-asking-permission/
2024-06-28 17:36:30 <MrMobius    > grrrrr
2024-06-28 17:37:21 <MrMobius    > I have to say I wasn't impressed when my win10 machine suddenly wanted me to register for an Ms account after months and the Internet happened to be down
2024-06-28 17:38:51 <MrMobius    > I run Linux on an old workstation as a server for programming and keep windows on my laptop. I'm tempted to switch that to Linux too but there's always some embedded thing you need windows for
2024-06-28 17:39:29 <MrMobius    > one guy I know has a windows XP Laptop he only boots when he needs to burn an eeprom :(
2024-06-28 17:43:39 <dlowe       > wine is getting better at supporting these kinds of tools
2024-06-28 17:44:17 <dlowe       > it'd be cool to have a wine fork that focuses on getting those sorts of oddball hardware things to work
2024-06-28 17:50:58 <crc         > my problem w/work is that we use a program that only runs properly on Windows. It doesn't work under wine (I try periodically in hopes that I'll eventually be able to use FreeBSD or Linux instead of Windows)
2024-06-28 18:11:59 <crc         > I've extracted my notes on the forth computer project my son & I are working on to https://charles.childe.rs/hardware.txt
2024-06-28 18:24:54 <MrMobius    > crc: how much horsepower do you need? you could use a discrete CPU if you don't need a lot
2024-06-28 18:27:16 <MrMobius    > like a 65C816. addresses up to 16mb ram but max 14mhz
2024-06-28 18:28:28 <crc         > My system is slow at 14MHz; I've used it relatively comfortably at 40MHz, and
2024-06-28 18:28:52 <crc         > anything beyond around 100MHz is easily tolerable in my experience with it
2024-06-28 18:29:14 <crc         > (much of this is due to running on a vm with a very limited instruction set)
2024-06-28 18:32:55 <crc         > the 65C816 is 16 bit, so it'd be slower (my VM is 32-bit internally). I've run it on systems as far back as an 8088/8086, but it's very slow on those.
2024-06-28 19:36:51 <traveler    > I'm sure this has been posted here, but relevant to what veltas and KipIngram were talking about earlier: https://ploum.net/the-computer-built-to-last-50-years/
2024-06-28 19:38:26 <traveler    > If I were to do such a thing, I'd start with mecrisp on an RP2040 because that's what I'm familiar with, but there are probably better choices (e.g., the MAX chip KipIngram is working with.)
2024-06-28 19:45:32 <KipIngram   > That MAX board is basically a competent ARM, but also has a RISC V processor on it (mostly intended to do the critical Bluetooth timing).  I like it primarily, over others of the sort, because it has an awfully nice array of peripherals.
2024-06-28 19:45:48 <KipIngram   > I figure if I get all those supported once, I'll be done with those parts for future projects I use it on.
2024-06-28 19:46:06 <KipIngram   > So the idea of Forth as an OS, offering support for those things, seems nice to me.
2024-06-28 19:47:13 <KipIngram   > I have not seen that article before, traveler - it looks interesting.
2024-06-28 19:47:21 <crc         > a 50-year machine would be good. I'm kind of hoping that I'll basically achieve that in my projects (baring major advancements in life expectancy, that'd likely be enough for the rest of my life)
2024-06-28 19:47:29 <dlowe       > Framework is coming out with a RISC V mainboard and that's so exciting
2024-06-28 19:48:10 <KipIngram   > I expect the support for most of those peripherals to be fairly easy, but the Bluetooth may be challenging.
2024-06-28 19:48:25 <KipIngram   > Ultimately I'd like to be able to open a console on the MAX from my notebook via BT.
2024-06-28 19:48:54 <KipIngram   > And also if I have several of them powered up near one another, I'd like them to find each other and form up a mesh network.  Or at least be ready to if I decide I want that.
2024-06-28 19:49:22 <KipIngram   > I imagine a distributed computing scenario, with my notebook and a flock of those boards cooperating smoothly.
2024-06-28 19:49:53 <KipIngram   > For example, maybe a MAX board could LOAD a block that's on my notebook, etc.
2024-06-28 20:27:33 <KipIngram   > traveler: I love this article.
2024-06-28 23:03:49 <vms14       > anyone has the solution?
2024-06-28 23:03:51 <vms14       > Explain what an artichoke has to do with any of this.
2024-06-28 23:04:06 <vms14       > in the starting forth book, this is one of the exercises
2024-06-28 23:04:25 <vms14       > the answer on the back is "Don't ask"
2024-06-28 23:04:30 <vms14       > but i'm asking
2024-06-28 23:04:59 <vms14       > there's a meaning about this?
2024-06-28 23:05:37 <vms14       > artichoke is mentioned in one of the examples but does not seem to have any relation to anything
2024-06-28 23:06:36 <vms14       > might be this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Artichoke
2024-06-28 23:07:35 <vms14       > At first agents used cocaine, marijuana, heroin, peyote and mescaline, but they increasingly saw LSD as the most promising drug.
2024-06-28 23:11:26 <traveler    > I have no idea. Possibly an inside joke or just someone being weird on purpose.
2024-06-28 23:12:13 <zelgomer    > anybody else ever write something you feel really clever about but you can't figure out how to use it?
2024-06-28 23:13:34 <zelgomer    > if i'm going to bitbang pic icsp, i have to implement the jtag protocol. so i wrote a neat jtag state machine navigator. but the way i did it, i'm not sure how it fits into the bigger picture here...