2024-08-17 00:13:20 <zelgomer    > my cheapo radioshack multimeter has a transistor tester
2024-08-17 00:27:36 <veltas      > I think with Forth the performance tradeoff for simplicity is the way to go
2024-08-17 00:28:28 <veltas      > It does limit what you can do with it, but it's just not the Forth way to tie yourself up in knots trying to get extra performance
2024-08-17 00:33:57 <unjust      > KipIngram: building a stack machine out of BJTs only?
2024-08-17 00:45:01 <unjust      > i'm only half joking - it would be interesting if someone did that, but that'd also be an impressive undertaking
2024-08-17 00:48:51 <unjust      > but while i was trying to find out if anyone's actually done that, i came across this that uses 74 series logic instead: http://mynor.org/my4th
2024-08-17 01:33:30 <xentrac     > KipIngram: you can usually just use a multimeter in diode-test mode to figure out which junction is which
2024-08-17 01:36:59 <xentrac     > Tony Kuphaldt's textbook explains how: https://workforce.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electronics_Technology/Book%3A_Electric_Circuits_III_-_Semiconductors_(Kuphaldt)/04%3A_Bipolar_Junction_Transistors/4.03%3A_Meter_Check_of_a_Transistor_(BJT)
2024-08-17 01:37:42 <xentrac     > "If a multimeter with a “diode check” function is used in this test, it will be found that the emitter-base junction possesses a slightly greater forward voltage drop than the collector-base junction. This forward voltage difference is due to the disparity in doping concentration between the emitter and collector regions of the transistor: the emitter is a much more heavily doped piece of
2024-08-17 01:37:48 <xentrac     > semiconductor material than the collector, causing its junction with the base to produce a higher forward voltage drop."
2024-08-17 01:39:31 <xentrac     > I updated the minimal roguelike to have color: https://asciinema.org/a/672405
2024-08-17 01:47:37 <xentrac     > KipIngram: it's also true that cheap US$4 multimeters typically have a transistor-tester function which tells you the β
2024-08-17 01:53:40 <unjust      > xentrac: did you pick (((ordinal + 7) % 8) + 0x30) for the colour code because '$' would then be gold or as close to gold as possible, and just ran with whatever '@', '!', '.' and '*' ended up as?
2024-08-17 01:55:28 <xentrac     > yes
2024-08-17 01:55:33 <xentrac     > exactly!
2024-08-17 01:55:46 <xentrac     > except it's decimal 30
2024-08-17 01:55:54 <xentrac     > because ANSI is dum
2024-08-17 01:57:07 <xentrac     > if I'd ended up with '@' being dark gray like '!' I would have had to do something more complicated
2024-08-17 01:58:57 <unjust      > sorry, i'm also dumb - even though i had just read the code... in my head i automatically mixed in 0x30 + (digit) because i saw "30 +"
2024-08-17 01:59:41 <xentrac     > it's a reasonable thing to think!  but I would write that as [char] 0 + :)
2024-08-17 02:00:31 <xentrac     > about 75% of the asciinema recorded session is the victory animation.  I think I might add some output buffering to cut down on that and on the number of system calls
2024-08-17 02:00:50 <unjust      > until in some crazy parallel dimension, programming languages and charsets don't abide by some unspoken rule of contiguous digit ordinals :)
2024-08-17 02:01:09 <xentrac     > oh, I didn't mean for portability, I meant for readability
2024-08-17 02:01:34 <unjust      > i got it, but if it were the case both your approach and mine would fail
2024-08-17 02:01:45 <xentrac     > yes
2024-08-17 02:02:31 <unjust      > how are those videos encoded?
2024-08-17 02:02:37 <xentrac     > asciinema
2024-08-17 02:02:41 <unjust      > yes
2024-08-17 02:03:07 <xentrac     > ndjson
2024-08-17 02:03:25 <xentrac     > [87.630934, "o", "\u001b[30;1m!\u001b[31;1m*"]
2024-08-17 02:03:26 <xentrac     > [87.631022, "o", "*****\u001b[30;1m!\u001b[31;1m**\u001b[35;1m"]
2024-08-17 02:04:05 <unjust      > what's the second element for?
2024-08-17 02:04:15 <xentrac     > "o" means "output" I think?
2024-08-17 02:04:42 <xentrac     > there's a --stdin option to also record the input, but I didn't have it enabled
2024-08-17 02:05:27 <unjust      > thanks for the snippet
2024-08-17 02:05:39 <xentrac     > sure, I wasn't sure if that might be too much to paste
2024-08-17 02:05:55 <xentrac     > you can see why I think output buffering would help
2024-08-17 02:07:04 <xentrac     > I'm not going to claim to be Jon Blow or anything but I'm pretty sure I spent a significant amount of my childhood playing games that were less cool than this
2024-08-17 02:07:06 <unjust      > one thing that sucks about escape sequences is that printf(3)'s field width doesn't take what's unprintable into account
2024-08-17 02:07:41 <unjust      > ie. %-20s
2024-08-17 02:07:47 <xentrac     > it also doesn't take backspaces or proportional fonts into account
2024-08-17 02:08:07 <xentrac     > I think probably elastic tabstops with nested tables is the solution
2024-08-17 02:08:48 <xentrac     > tabs terminate a column, all cells in a column are the same width, and ^K and ^L start and end a table nested inside a cell
2024-08-17 02:08:59 <unjust      > i don't think i've seen that before
2024-08-17 02:09:08 <xentrac     > I don't think anyone has implemented it yet
2024-08-17 02:09:41 <unjust      > used to play this as a young kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csBkEO01idM
2024-08-17 02:10:21 <xentrac     > heh, I straced a run of the game just now to see how many times it's calling write()
2024-08-17 02:10:31 <xentrac     > slightly larger screen size so slightly longer
2024-08-17 02:10:42 <xentrac     > it made 2.4 million system calls
2024-08-17 02:10:59 <unjust      > what percentage of them were write(2) to stdout?
2024-08-17 02:11:06 <xentrac     > almost all of them, and almost all for a single byte
2024-08-17 02:11:31 <xentrac     > write(1, "\33", 1)                      = 1
2024-08-17 02:11:31 <xentrac     > write(1, "[", 1)                        = 1
2024-08-17 02:11:34 <xentrac     > write(1, "!", 1)                        = 1
2024-08-17 02:11:36 <unjust      > i remember being pretty impressed when i saw sierra games on a PC for the first time, after playing text based adventure games on a commodore
2024-08-17 02:12:44 <xentrac     > yeah!
2024-08-17 02:13:58 <xentrac     > there's still an active interactive fiction niche community, which has come out with one of the most interesting programming languages, Inform 7
2024-08-17 02:15:40 <unjust      > i didn't know there was a community for that sort of thing
2024-08-17 02:16:32 <xentrac     > yeah, there's a yearly competition and stuff: https://ifcomp.org/about/prizes
2024-08-17 02:17:19 <xentrac     > some of them have some graphics, others are just text
2024-08-17 02:17:56 <unjust      > are those generally 2D?
2024-08-17 02:19:18 <xentrac     > https://svlin.itch.io/dr-ludwig-and-the-devil is 1D, just text
2024-08-17 02:19:42 <xentrac     > that's the first-prize winner of last year's IFComp apparently
2024-08-17 02:22:43 <xentrac     > https://radiosity01.itch.io/lunium isn't exactly 2D in the way the Sierra adventures were; it's more like 2D in the way Goodnight Moon is 2D
2024-08-17 02:22:52 <xentrac     > though significantly more gothic
2024-08-17 02:23:01 <unjust      > pretty cool
2024-08-17 02:25:23 <unjust      > i think i could do something similar to dr-ludwig-and-the-devil interface in this stack lang experiment i did with javascript last year https://risingedge.co.za/eczema/
2024-08-17 02:26:40 <xentrac     > yeah, probably!  natural-language-parser-based text adventures are surprisingly tricky though
2024-08-17 02:27:14 <xentrac     > it's easy for them to degrade into word-guessing games
2024-08-17 02:28:02 <xentrac     > I remember the one I used to play a lot on HDOS ("A Remarkable Experience", REMARK.ABS, now apparently lost in time like tears in rain) only handled one- and two-word phrases: VERB or VERB NOUN
2024-08-17 02:29:00 <xentrac     > one of my first difficulties with it was that I couldn't figure out how to pick things up
2024-08-17 02:29:09 <xentrac     > because of course PICK UP LAMP was three words
2024-08-17 02:29:32 <xentrac     > it understood GET and TAKE but I was 6 and took a long time to think of such synonyms
2024-08-17 02:29:33 <unjust      > i remember TAKE was often a viable choice
2024-08-17 02:29:40 <unjust      > TAKE ROCK ... THROW WINDOW
2024-08-17 02:29:45 <xentrac     > yes, haha
2024-08-17 02:29:46 <unjust      > BURN POSTBOX
2024-08-17 02:29:55 <thrig       > text game interfaces have quirks and take some learning
2024-08-17 02:30:43 <amby        > xyzzy
2024-08-17 02:30:44 <thrig       > AppleScript had the same problem "just use English! oh, but not that English, it has to be ..."
2024-08-17 02:30:44 <unjust      > amby: i knew a xyzzy
2024-08-17 02:30:58 <xentrac     > did you know a strtrs?
2024-08-17 02:31:00 <unjust      > nah
2024-08-17 02:31:49 <unjust      > there was someone with that handle around on another irc server though
2024-08-17 02:33:20 <xentrac     > of the two mentions of "A Remarkable Experience" Google can find on the web, one is this comment I wrote: https://hackaday.com/2021/10/27/vcf-east-2021-preserving-heathkits-8-bit-computers/#comment-6396555
2024-08-17 02:33:26 <xentrac     > the other is https://heathkit.garlanger.com/software/library/HoyleHoyle/
2024-08-17 02:33:36 <amby        > oh
2024-08-17 02:33:44 <amby        > speaking of things with only two references on the web
2024-08-17 02:33:51 <amby        > does anyone here know anything about the misc m17
2024-08-17 02:34:26 <amby        > it gets a whole chapter in that one book on stack machines but i can only find one other reference to it on the internet
2024-08-17 02:34:31 <amby        > which links back to that chapter
2024-08-17 02:34:43 <xentrac     > I haven't heard of it
2024-08-17 02:34:49 <xentrac     > which I guess means I haven't read the whole book
2024-08-17 02:35:03 <amby        > https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.html this one
2024-08-17 02:35:03 <unjust      > amby: did you write to Phil Koopman for more info?
2024-08-17 02:35:11 <amby        > i havent, but i have considered it
2024-08-17 02:36:13 <unjust      > he may have some random additional stuff about it in his home dir's public_html based on the results i see from a google search of: misc m17 site:cmu.edu
2024-08-17 02:36:27 <unjust      > but probably not much apart from references in papers
2024-08-17 02:38:06 <unjust      > this one is the ripest @ https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/forth/sdnc90b.pdf
2024-08-17 02:38:17 <unjust      > it doesn't seem to contain the OCR'ed text
2024-08-17 02:38:32 <unjust      > but look at the page 12/13 for a breadcrumb
2024-08-17 02:39:02 <amby        > it cites the "MISC M17 Technical Reference Manual" but seemingly nothing more than that
2024-08-17 02:39:12 <unjust      > yup ... MISC (1988) MISC M17 Technical Reference Manual, MISC Inc., Aurora Colorado
2024-08-17 02:39:22 <xentrac     > there might be records of a Colorado corporation by that name
2024-08-17 02:39:25 <unjust      > heh
2024-08-17 02:39:42 <unjust      > was just about to suggest looking for that and phoning people who might have worked there in 1987/1988
2024-08-17 02:39:44 <xentrac     > which might give you someone else to talk to other than Koopman
2024-08-17 02:40:00 <amby        > i have a feeling MISC Inc might have been what chuck moore did before greenarrays
2024-08-17 02:40:04 <xentrac     > but talking to Koopman seems like the first step
2024-08-17 02:40:23 <xentrac     > I think in 01987 he was doing Computer Cowboys
2024-08-17 02:40:36 <amby        > i'll send koopman an email tomorrow if i remember
2024-08-17 02:40:42 <amby        > it's coming up on 2am here
2024-08-17 02:40:46 <xentrac     > the MuP21 came out in 01990
2024-08-17 02:41:20 <unjust      > where are you amby?
2024-08-17 02:41:24 <amby        > uk
2024-08-17 02:42:13 <unjust      > tried looking up "Minimum Instruction Set Computer, Inc." rather than MISC Inc. ?
2024-08-17 02:42:18 <amby        > yep
2024-08-17 02:42:43 <xentrac     > unfortunately none of "MISC", "Technical", "Reference", or "Manual" is a very rare term
2024-08-17 02:43:51 <xentrac     > but none of the obvious combinations turn up anything interesting on https://archive.org/details/texts
2024-08-17 02:43:57 <amby        > https://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm this page has a link that leads to a 404
2024-08-17 02:44:01 <amby        > to the wayback machine!
2024-08-17 02:44:10 <xentrac     > you could probably also ask Chuck
2024-08-17 02:44:40 <xentrac     > he's still alert and coherent as of a few months ago anyway
2024-08-17 02:44:52 <xentrac     > even if he is running Windows
2024-08-17 02:45:42 <amby        > the link redirects to another page that links back to the ultratechnology page
2024-08-17 02:47:31 <xentrac     > https://web.archive.org/web/20050309142610/http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/jbayko/cpu7.html#Sec7Part3 has some info
2024-08-17 02:48:04 <xentrac     > https://web.archive.org/web/20040609042033/http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/jbayko/cpu7.html#Sec7Part3 seems to be the same ting
2024-08-17 02:48:14 <amby        > yeah thats the link i was talking about
2024-08-17 02:48:21 <unjust      > there is a small amount of information about MISC M17 in ukrainian
2024-08-17 02:48:29 <xentrac     > cool!
2024-08-17 02:48:33 <unjust      > https://ela.kpi.ua/server/api/core/bitstreams/7606be0c-8241-4840-983a-5ec4b26083e0/content
2024-08-17 02:49:18 <xentrac     > looks like someone's dissertation from 02021
2024-08-17 02:49:36 <xentrac     > about stack microcontrollers
2024-08-17 02:49:45 <unjust      > he probably has more info for amby than the rest of us do
2024-08-17 02:49:52 <xentrac     > Стековий мікроконтролер is the тему
2024-08-17 02:50:33 <xentrac     > oh, there's an abstract in English, titled "Annotation"
2024-08-17 02:50:55 <amby        > i'll send some emails in the morning
2024-08-17 02:51:15 <unjust      >  Структура процесора MISC M17 (structure of the misc m17 processor) is the good bit
2024-08-17 02:51:53 <xentrac     > yeah
2024-08-17 02:51:59 <amby        > this might just be the chapter from the koopman book in ukrainian
2024-08-17 02:52:08 <xentrac     > plausible
2024-08-17 02:52:17 <amby        > the block diagram looks identical, if a little stretched
2024-08-17 02:52:38 <unjust      > if nothing else, it's one extra reference to contact
2024-08-17 02:52:50 <amby        > yeah
2024-08-17 02:53:07 <xentrac     > reference 1 is Koopman's book (p. 66/90)
2024-08-17 02:53:34 <xentrac     > reference 5 is the technical manual, so the author might be unwilling to respond to queries
2024-08-17 02:53:34 <amby        > yeah
2024-08-17 02:54:14 <xentrac     > because it probably means they cited a source they didn't actually have access to, which I don't think you're supposed to do
2024-08-17 02:54:54 <xentrac     > though I'm a little unclear on this point
2024-08-17 02:55:17 <unjust      > i don't think you're meant to do that
2024-08-17 02:55:53 <unjust      > but second hand references are pretty common elsewhere
2024-08-17 02:56:09 <xentrac     > interestingly they cite it when they're talking about Arkhittektura FRISC 3
2024-08-17 02:57:01 <xentrac     > probably in error
2024-08-17 02:57:36 <unjust      > where did you see that?
2024-08-17 02:58:05 <xentrac     > §1.3, p. 23/90, right below the M17 section
2024-08-17 02:58:20 <xentrac     > Працює даний процесор з тактовою частотою до 10 MHz [5].
2024-08-17 02:58:37 <xentrac     > on p. 66/90 reference 5 is the MISC manual
2024-08-17 02:58:50 <xentrac     > reference 6 is the FRISC paper
2024-08-17 02:59:50 <unjust      > ok i see what you mean
2024-08-17 03:00:04 <unjust      > probably a typo for 6
2024-08-17 03:01:24 <unjust      > we should invite serhii stirenko to this channel
2024-08-17 03:02:16 <amby        > anyway
2024-08-17 03:02:17 <xentrac     > if he isn't busy blowing up Russians in trenches or getting blown up by them
2024-08-17 03:02:20 <amby        > bedtime for me
2024-08-17 03:03:31 <xentrac     > looking for information about A Remarkable Experience I think I found out that the author died a few years ago: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/greensboro/name/hughes-hoyle-obituary?id=16712533
2024-08-17 03:06:14 <unjust      > time to build that ouija-irc bridge
2024-08-17 03:06:36 <xentrac     > heh
2024-08-17 03:06:57 <xentrac     > it wasn't really on-topic for here probably since the game probably wasn't in Forth
2024-08-17 03:10:34 <unjust      > looks like there might be A Galatic Experience out there on github
2024-08-17 03:11:06 <unjust      > https://github.com/sebhc/sebhc/tree/master/wiki/DISKIMAGES/HUGHSHOYLEIII via https://intfiction.org/t/a-galactic-experience/13857/5
2024-08-17 03:12:03 <xentrac     > aha, cool
2024-08-17 03:13:25 <xentrac     > the directory name suggests that the author was the father who died in 02008
2024-08-17 03:17:35 <xentrac     > I don't remember the HDOS disk format very well
2024-08-17 03:21:25 <unjust      > same repo: https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/documentation/supplemental/HDOS_Disk.pdf
2024-08-17 03:22:15 <xentrac     > cool!
2024-08-17 03:23:21 <xentrac     > heh, yes, I remember the nightmarish sounds from the drive stepper motor
2024-08-17 03:24:15 <xentrac     > most of the text in the game seems to be encoded in some non-ASCII form
2024-08-17 03:24:56 <unjust      > did PETSCII get used on the heathkit?
2024-08-17 03:25:22 <xentrac     > no
2024-08-17 03:25:27 <xentrac     > haha, the /JGL flag in PIP
2024-08-17 03:26:13 <xentrac     > (JGL wrote PIP, and also, OS/2)
2024-08-17 04:15:59 <xentrac     > What's the best Forth to use on FreeDOS or UEFI?
2024-08-17 15:11:30 <amby        > well emailing koopman didn't work
2024-08-17 15:11:42 <amby        > "550 permanent failure for one or more recipients"
2024-08-17 16:15:34 <MrMobius    > he sets it like that for people he doesn't like
2024-08-17 16:43:28 <zelgomer    > i wish i could find text on people's experiences with destructive versus non destructive tests or branches. i know this discussion has come up several times, and i keep flip flopping on how i want mine to work. and i know that in machineforth chuck switched to having test words like 0= that set cpu flags and then nondestructive conditional branches that only loop at the flags. but i just haven't seen any
2024-08-17 16:43:34 <zelgomer    > objective analysis of how those shake out in practice.
2024-08-17 17:18:58 <user51      > Any suggestions on testing the execution of threads?
2024-08-17 17:27:29 <user51      > Here's a simple one: http://0x0.st/X4UH.txt
2024-08-17 17:29:08 <user51      > I printed a line per return to see if there's no unexpected stuff going with the rstack, then counted it.  I just added one more line of nesting to the test.  That led me here: https://oeis.org/A000522
2024-08-17 17:29:29 <KipIngram   > Well, I'd just write a background thread that copied one variable into another every so often.  Then set the "input" variable and confirm the output variable changes.
2024-08-17 17:29:35 <KipIngram   > Or something equally simple.
2024-08-17 17:29:48 <KipIngram   > You could just have it increment a counter, which you then checked.
2024-08-17 17:30:40 <KipIngram   > I've done such things in one of my systems.
2024-08-17 17:30:55 <KipIngram   > Since Forth will let you at virtually anything you want to get at, without any silly artificial "protections," there are a lot of options.
2024-08-17 17:32:00 <user51      > Actually, I don't have any meat on this -- just a simple word that prints the number of times it's been executed, : and ;.  That's why I asked specifically about the threading, sorry if it wasn't clear.
2024-08-17 17:39:11 <KipIngram   > No, I'm sorry - I just didn't get exactly what you needed.
2024-08-17 17:40:25 <KipIngram   > One of my cats (the one I'm most fond of) is sick and at the animal hospital.  Pretty worried about him; that may be part of it.  Kind of distracted.
2024-08-17 17:42:33 <user51      > Hope he gets well soon  :)
2024-08-17 18:08:53 <user51      > Well, seems like it's fine so far -- it's flawed, but at least it works.  Getting to the stage I can just add words to the kernel is great.
2024-08-17 18:11:37 <user51      > I've probably made some unusual decisions, for example there's no explicit RETURN, just a cell filled with zeroes.  Basically, NULL-terminated.
2024-08-17 18:15:22 <KipIngram   > :-)  I would just think of that as 0 being the "opcode" for return.
2024-08-17 18:16:37 <KipIngram   > Thanks re: the cat.  I hope he DOES get well.  He's pretty sick.  But now that I've taken all the action I can take I feel at least somewhat relieved.  Now it's up to him.
2024-08-17 18:19:10 <user51      > Yep.  The worst feeling is when something could've been done, but didn't.
2024-08-17 18:20:06 <KipIngram   > Exactly.
2024-08-17 18:22:06 <xentrac     > MrMobius: ha
2024-08-17 18:24:18 <xentrac     > zelgomer: I think for objective analysis of testing methods you have to do experimental psychology, because the people writing and using the tests are first-order considerations
2024-08-17 18:24:51 <xentrac     > I think 0 is a better opcode for "break into the debug interpreter"
2024-08-17 18:26:08 <xentrac     > hmm, this line in Gforth drops me into a single-stepping interpreter: : hi ." hello, world" cr ; dbg hi
2024-08-17 18:26:23 <xentrac     > but the only command that works in it is ?, help
2024-08-17 18:27:05 <xentrac     > oh I guess s, stop, also works
2024-08-17 18:27:20 <xentrac     > and so does d, done
2024-08-17 18:28:06 <xentrac     > but u (unnest), n (nest), space, and enter all result in various kinds of crashes
2024-08-17 18:28:10 <xentrac     > am I holding it wrong?
2024-08-17 19:01:19 <thrig       > https://xkcd.com/1172/
2024-08-17 19:12:04 <KipIngram   > lmao...
2024-08-17 19:12:09 <KipIngram   > That's brilliant.
2024-08-17 19:23:03 <unjust      > xentrac: using gforth instead of gforth-itc maybe?
2024-08-17 19:44:10 <zelgomer    > xentrac: sorry by tests i meant the logical operators. e.g., should ='s effect be ( a b - f) or ( a b - a b f) ?
2024-08-17 20:19:43 <xentrac     > ahh
2024-08-17 20:20:58 <xentrac     > oh, sorry!  I think even in machineforth 0= consumes the operands
2024-08-17 20:22:06 <xentrac     > I'm not convinced that the stack is a good place for booleans, but I don't see why comparisons should be different from other operations in consuming their operands
2024-08-17 20:23:37 <skvery      > xentrac accumulator flags should be visible?
2024-08-17 20:41:48 <zelgomer    > xentrac: yeah but machineforth's jz doesn't consume. sorry, i was blending two examples in the original question. machineforth has nondestructive branches; i and some others here have written forths with nondestructive logical testers. i can't decide whether either or both of these are actually better.
2024-08-17 20:43:02 <zelgomer    > when i look back over code i've written, i get the feeling it's a wash. in the destructive cases, i sometimes have to dup. in the nondestructive case, i would sometimes have to add drop.
2024-08-17 20:44:36 <zelgomer    > i wish there was better, emperically supported guidance here
2024-08-17 20:45:42 <zelgomer    > i guess for now i think i will stick with what most people would expect, and only deviate from conventions when i can demonstrate an improvement
2024-08-17 21:12:48 <xentrac     > skvery: ?
2024-08-17 21:13:26 <xentrac     > I feel like if the number of cases is equal destructive would be better
2024-08-17 21:14:03 <zelgomer    > fewer words compiled, true
2024-08-17 21:14:12 <xentrac     > when destructive is bad, 0= if foo then becomes dup 0= if foo then
2024-08-17 21:14:36 <xentrac     > when nondestructive is bad, 0= if foo then becomes 0= if drop foo else drop then
2024-08-17 21:15:50 <xentrac     > the really annoying case is when you want something like x @ 0 > x @ limit < and
2024-08-17 21:16:13 <xentrac     > except where x @ and limit are on the stack
2024-08-17 21:17:10 <xentrac     > because then you end up with something like over 0 > >r < r> and which is pretty hard to read
2024-08-17 21:18:29 <xentrac     > right now the thing I'm exploring is how this would look with Henry Baker's COMFY-80/COMFY-65 control-flow operators, where > and 0= etc. are actually conditional branches whose destination comes from the compilation context, so you can write if x @ 0 > x @ limit < then foo fi
2024-08-17 21:18:41 <xentrac     > but I have to get back to work now
2024-08-17 21:19:39 <zelgomer    > so you get short circuiting, that's nice. but what purpose is "if" serving there?
2024-08-17 22:37:56 <veltas      > zelgomer you'll appreciate this https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250
2024-08-17 22:38:11 <veltas      > Python is a joke now
2024-08-17 22:40:33 <unjust      > i think skvery meant something like the flags register you'd find on many conventional mcus/mpus, so are there any forth implementations out there that have something like an F register that comparators (and arithmetic operations for things like sign or carry) update instead of pushing to the result to the data stack?
2024-08-17 22:42:44 <zelgomer    > "the steering council" ffs
2024-08-17 22:42:59 <zelgomer    > but python has always been a joke, so there is that
2024-08-17 22:43:52 <veltas      > Feels like public shaming as well putting this post out
2024-08-17 22:44:04 <veltas      > What a strange attitude these people have
2024-08-17 22:44:53 <veltas      > If I took issue with someone's conduct that much, and couldn't reconcile it privately, I would privately suspend them... and then talk more about it only if they publically complained about it
2024-08-17 22:45:39 <unjust      > why is a code of conduct even necessary?
2024-08-17 22:45:48 <veltas      > It feels like they're just opening themselves up to civil suits etc, the whole code-of-conduct council thing is very naiive
2024-08-17 22:45:57 <zelgomer    > exactly. why can't tim have his own opinions about things?
2024-08-17 22:46:53 <veltas      > It sounds to me like they guy was dissenting and causing trouble, but ignoring that the reasons they gave for suspending him are proper wrong-think tier
2024-08-17 22:47:09 <veltas      > And totally inappropriate to comment on publicly
2024-08-17 22:47:12 <darkling    > A COC is there so that the rules, whatever they are, are explicitly stated up front. This means that it's harder for someone to claim victimhood if they're found to have broken those rules.
2024-08-17 22:47:16 <veltas      > This should have been dealt with privately
2024-08-17 22:47:35 <veltas      > darkling: Problem is a lot of these codes are open to interpretation
2024-08-17 22:47:46 <veltas      > And clearly quite political/ideological
2024-08-17 22:47:49 <darkling    > Sure, everything is.
2024-08-17 22:48:09 <darkling    > Note I said "harder", not "impossible".
2024-08-17 22:48:15 <veltas      > Read the post if you haven't darkling and tell me if you think that it's not chilling
2024-08-17 22:48:25 <veltas      > That's really the key point
2024-08-17 22:48:45 <unjust      > i think overall they just make it less appealing to contribute to projects that punt them
2024-08-17 22:49:03 <zelgomer    > why do there need to be rules about how an open source contributor conducts themselves? it's fucking code, people. taking their code does not mean you agree with them politically. if hitler had created the best operating system ever, i would be using it.
2024-08-17 22:49:23 <veltas      > Rules are reasonable
2024-08-17 22:49:42 <veltas      > But these are too political/PC
2024-08-17 22:50:21 <veltas      > Exactly my thoughts unjust
2024-08-17 22:50:48 <darkling    > zelgomer: I beg to differ. There are, for example, authors who I no longer wish to give my money or attention to, based on their past (and recently revealed) behaviour, for example.
2024-08-17 22:51:16 <zelgomer    > who are you giving money to for open source software?
2024-08-17 22:51:21 <zelgomer    > i think you might be doing it wrong
2024-08-17 22:51:49 <veltas      > That's your prerogative darkling
2024-08-17 22:52:09 <unjust      > a few years ago i got some patches included in linux, i started getting spam from american university students asking for how i ensure. what people now call DEI princples, are upheld in professional and open source projects may i work on - they didn't get it that i don't care who or what you are, as long as your contribution is technically valid
2024-08-17 22:52:25 <zelgomer    > my prerogative is to quit funding the us federal government, but it seems i don't get much of a choice in that matter
2024-08-17 22:52:34 <unjust      > s/may i/i may/
2024-08-17 22:53:29 <zelgomer    > unjust: you think that was part of some course assignment, or?
2024-08-17 22:53:41 <zelgomer    > activism?
2024-08-17 22:53:43 <unjust      > zelgomer: yes, i believe it was some sort of social studies program
2024-08-17 22:53:48 <veltas      > Is it not a DEI principle to work with people regardless of their backgrounds?
2024-08-17 22:53:54 <zelgomer    > jesus
2024-08-17 22:54:26 <veltas      > Jesus is relevant to this discussion, indeed
2024-08-17 22:54:30 <unjust      > veltas: it's a game of, some animals are more equal than others
2024-08-17 22:55:31 <unjust      > before anyone assumes there's some racist slant on that comment: https://studymind.co.uk/questions/all-animals-are-equal-but-some-are-more-equal-than-others-how-far-is-this-idea-important-in-animal-farm/
2024-08-17 22:55:56 <zelgomer    > regardless of what they claim, dei principle is subjugation and replacement by statists
2024-08-17 22:56:25 <veltas      > I mean if you stated your DEI principle was to work with people regardless of their ethnicity etc don't you think that would have got them off your back?
2024-08-17 22:57:21 <unjust      > veltas: i would have thought so, but they were gunning for the prioritization of people from "previously disadvantaged" backgrounds
2024-08-17 22:57:38 <zelgomer    > should have told them you don't work with commies
2024-08-17 22:57:55 <veltas      > How do you know?
2024-08-17 22:58:34 <veltas      > I've known a communist who I think you would get on with zelgomer
2024-08-17 22:58:56 <veltas      > I guess if they didn't admit to being a communist lol
2024-08-17 22:58:57 <zelgomer    > not if he's a commie
2024-08-17 22:59:06 <unjust      > zelgomer: that would have been funny if they had made some kind of response to that
2024-08-17 22:59:06 <zelgomer    > i would find out
2024-08-17 22:59:49 <veltas      > This guy voted Brexit, which is rare for a far left person
2024-08-17 23:00:04 <zelgomer    > broken clock
2024-08-17 23:00:46 <veltas      > I voted against Brexit
2024-08-17 23:01:40 <veltas      > The reaction to the result changed my understanding of politics considerably
2024-08-17 23:02:14 <unjust      > how have prices and the availability of goods to the average person been affected since leaving the EU?
2024-08-17 23:02:44 <zelgomer    > veltas: reveals that brits haven't thought they were in control of their own destiny for a very long time
2024-08-17 23:02:53 <veltas      > That's a loaded question unjust ;)
2024-08-17 23:03:42 <veltas      > zelgomer: My side lost and I said "okay, we lost, fair enough"; and watched everyone who supposedly defends democracy try to overturn it and lie about it
2024-08-17 23:04:11 <veltas      > So now I am less naive about the process
2024-08-17 23:05:50 <veltas      > unjust: I think it's been bad for our economy, but I'm no expert so my opinion is useless.  If it affected price of goods I'd barely notice.
2024-08-17 23:06:05 <veltas      > I think COVID may have had more impact
2024-08-17 23:10:21 <veltas      > Anyway this Python thing has ensured I will avoid Python and oppose it now
2024-08-17 23:10:39 <veltas      > I don't know what software projects think they're doing, getting involved in politics.  I guess they're not thinking at all
2024-08-17 23:11:00 <veltas      > It's a sign of a doomed project to do something like that
2024-08-17 23:11:12 <zelgomer    > veltas: they're getting muscled, that's what's doing
2024-08-17 23:12:32 <unjust      > what's the overall goal though? is there a movement of coc warriors trying to force any project with more than x people (whatever that number might be) making contributions to adhere to some basic set of rules?
2024-08-17 23:13:24 <veltas      > It feels like formalising Twitter witchhunts into projects
2024-08-17 23:14:19 <zelgomer    > there is a cold war and anything that influences public perception is a strategic target. the goal is to get you to fall in line and repeat laughable falshoods like that wearing a dress is what makes a man a woman. this is how you demoralize and destabilize empires.
2024-08-17 23:14:25 <veltas      > Like people who enjoy and feel empowered by social media hysteria and feel this should play a role in everything, from open source projects to the running of businesses or countries
2024-08-17 23:14:56 <veltas      > People who spend too much time in internet arguments and need to go smell fresh air and see a sunrise
2024-08-17 23:17:05 <veltas      > Of course that's probably offensive to say to someone living in a city :P
2024-08-17 23:18:24 <unjust      > though, the smell of smog and an obscured sunrise might be just as effective if the goal is to get them up and out of their armchair battlestations
2024-08-17 23:24:33 <KipIngram   > veltas: I've come to the conclusion that many people don't really believe in the values they espouse out loud.  They just use those values when it's handy, while having the real goal of just "wanting what they want" in each individual situation.  The idea that they live in a society that may require them to compromise with other people from time to time just never seems to occur to them.
2024-08-17 23:25:22 <KipIngram   > They're right, and that's just the end of it, as far as they are concerned.  Anyone who disagrees can just go to hell, apparently.
2024-08-17 23:26:19 <KipIngram   > I see this behavior on both ends of the spectrum.
2024-08-17 23:26:49 <veltas      > Yes, but I also tend to see this behavior more from left wing people among those who actually have power/influence
2024-08-17 23:26:50 <zelgomer    > of course you do. because your idea of "compromise with other people" means i give you my stuff and in return you don't shoot me
2024-08-17 23:27:22 <KipIngram   > I used to think that, but recent events here in the US have rattled that opinion quite a bit.
2024-08-17 23:27:39 <veltas      > Well I don't live in the US
2024-08-17 23:27:43 <KipIngram   > Probably started before I noticed it, but I really keyed in on it late last year.
2024-08-17 23:28:11 <KipIngram   > That's totally fair - the stuff you're front and center familiar with would be totally different from my set of stuff.
2024-08-17 23:29:09 <zelgomer    > recent events like what? like the media finally admitting that biden has been in incoherent bumbling moron for decades? or that democrats are now shooting at republicans? or that harris's platform is gun confiscation and price controls?
2024-08-17 23:29:35 <zelgomer    > the republican party is a mess, but anyone who tells says with a straight face that democrats are anything but pure evil are in on it
2024-08-17 23:32:39 <zelgomer    > > BuT mUh BiRtHiNg PeRsOnS rIgHtS!!!11
2024-08-17 23:32:43 <veltas      > Actually I'll amend what I said, it's not "left wing" that lies a lot, it's establishment.  But I personally think left wing people struggle to be anti-establishment because they don't seem to fundamentally disagree with the establishment philosophies.
2024-08-17 23:34:04 <veltas      > And they would say "no it's actually the right who are the establishment" but that's the reason why people have different opinions at all.  I think most people (statistically backed up) are dissatisfied with the establishment
2024-08-17 23:36:32 <veltas      > Changing subject a bit, I am a little disgusted with myself at the moment for just how well I'm adapting to corporate leadership/politics
2024-08-17 23:37:21 <veltas      > I think I've pretty much lost all of my prior principles and critique of corporate management/leadership styles now that I'm moving up the foodchain
2024-08-17 23:40:31 <veltas      > I now appreciate the bureaucracy, and its many benefits of being able to prevent bad work, despite the fact it prevents good work
2024-08-17 23:40:52 <veltas      > Ideally no work at all will happen, this is clearly the goal of corporations
2024-08-17 23:41:30 <zelgomer    > it's the goal of government, which big western corporations basically are at this point
2024-08-17 23:45:09 <veltas      > Obligatory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9XeyBd_IuA
2024-08-17 23:47:17 <crc         > 
ACTION is happy to have avoided corporate bureaucracy so far

2024-08-17 23:54:38 <veltas      > I definitely recommend Network to anyone who's not seen it
2024-08-17 23:55:26 <unjust      > also pirated satellite feeds from dictatorships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwHytpomC4