00:00:42
##forth
<xentrac>
are you sure 2 < and 1- are what you want there?
00:01:35
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : FACTORIAL ( n1 - $n2) DUP 2 < IF DROP 1. ELSE DUP 1- RECURSE ROT 1 M*/ THEN ; 5 FACTORIAL D.
00:01:36
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : FACTORIAL ( n1 - $n2) DUP 2 < IF DROP 1. ELSE DUP 1- RECURSE ROT 1 M*/ THEN ; 1 FACTORIAL D. 2 FACTORIAL D.
00:02:27
##forth
<xentrac>
!gforth : fac dup 2 < if drop 1. else dup 1- recurse rot 1 m*/ then ; : factorials 0 do fac . loop ; 11 factorials
00:03:28
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth SOURCE TYPE
00:03:40
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
SOURCE TYPE
00:04:23
##forth
<vms14>
we should request the bot to print errors too
00:04:34
##forth
<xentrac>
yes, and not mangle UTF-8
00:04:42
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah it goes bad when stderr is involved
00:05:38
##forth
<xentrac>
!gforth : fac dup 2 < if drop 1. else dup 1- recurse rot 1 m*/ then ; : factorials 0 do i fac d. loop ; 11 factorials
00:05:39
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
1 1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 40320 362880 3628800
00:11:19
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth WARNINGS OFF : ! 1. ROT 1 MAX 1 ?DO I 1 M*/ LOOP ; 1 ! D. 2 ! D. 3 ! D. 30 ! D.
00:11:20
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
1 1 2 8841761993739701954543616000000
00:11:50
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth WARNINGS OFF : ! 1. ROT 1+ 1 MAX 1 ?DO I 1 M*/ LOOP ; 1 ! D. 2 ! D. 3 ! D. 30 ! D.
00:11:50
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
1 2 6 265252859812191058636308480000000
00:13:00
##forth
<veltas>
Also maybe turn warnings off
00:15:07
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth BASE ON 1 . 10 . 100 . 1000 .
00:15:08
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
1 -1 1 -1
00:17:58
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth 10 DUP [IF] DUP . 1- 5 >IN ! [THEN]
00:17:59
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
00:31:10
##forth
<veltas>
I was thinking "why is Forth so hard", then I just realised I don't even know how to do the above factorial program in C without breaking out bignums or GCC extensions
00:31:32
##forth
<xentrac>
yeah, standard C doesn't have double precision integer math
00:32:19
##forth
<xentrac>
your nonrecursive factorial is certainly a great deal more readable
00:32:41
##forth
<veltas>
Which is roughly my proof of why Forth isn't a functional programming language
00:33:37
##forth
<veltas>
The nonrecursive one doesn't stack overflow either, but it does throw an exception on gforth when the number overflows
00:44:58
##forth
<xentrac>
that's interesting! C isn't very good at that either
00:47:28
##forth
<xentrac>
I think the reason it's hard to write it that way with an arithmetic for loop in most functional languages is that in Forth the return value of each iteration of the loop is the argument to the next iteration of the loop, which seems pretty functional to me.
00:47:47
##forth
<xentrac>
!gforth : 广州市 37 ; 广州市 .
00:47:48
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
37
00:50:52
##forth
<veltas>
I think all x86 forths get this for free with M*/ as DIV raises an exception if the result overflows
00:51:12
##forth
<veltas>
C gets this too, but because it doesn't do mixed precision you only see this for e.g. INT_MIN/-1
00:53:02
##forth
<xentrac>
hm!
00:53:13
##forth
<xentrac>
thought-provoking
01:20:24
##forth
<veltas>
Also the mixed precision DIV runs slower, which isn't too surprising
01:21:00
##forth
<veltas>
Might depend on how old your CPU is but the ones I looked at the stats for it was definitely slower
01:23:13
##forth
<xentrac>
interesting, I'd've expected it not to be on i386 and amd64
01:23:56
##forth
<xentrac>
since they have a native divide-double-precision-by-single-precision instruction, and their division isn't constant-time, running faster for smaller divisors
01:24:23
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah I mean in general case, it's faster depending on the value yeah
01:24:41
##forth
<veltas>
Well except for some crap atom processors probably
01:24:59
##forth
<veltas>
and really old stuff that's not worth thinking about
01:26:02
##forth
<xentrac>
I mean, I assume you're talking about the case where the high word of the dividend is 0
01:26:39
##forth
<xentrac>
because, when it's not, it isn't meaningful to say "runs slower" than single-precision division, because single-precision division gives the wrong answer!
01:27:25
##forth
<veltas>
You've certainly assumed things there :P
01:28:12
##forth
<xentrac>
it's a bad habit
07:54:29
##forth
<vms14>
guys do you know about postscript?
07:54:41
##forth
<vms14>
is it as hard as forth?
07:57:12
##forth
<vms14>
I mean forth forces you to factor your code in small pieces because if you don't you are fucked up
07:57:48
##forth
<vms14>
ps is a much higher level language, but so is my abomination
07:58:16
##forth
<vms14>
and both my abomination and forth are extremely hard unless you factor
11:30:55
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." \rabc"
11:30:55
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." abc"
11:31:05
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." \rNOTICE ##forth :test"
11:31:14
##forth
<pgimeno>
that's one vulnerability
11:32:12
##forth
<user51>
!gforth s" strace gforth" system
13:39:11
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth s" ps aux" system
13:40:37
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth ." \rNOTICE ##forth :test"
13:40:38
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
\rNOTICE ##forth :test
13:42:01
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
the bot has been patched
13:42:03
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
:)
13:57:38
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth .\" \rNOTICE ##forth :test"
13:57:51
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth .\" \r\nNOTICE ##forth :test"
13:58:01
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth .\" \nNOTICE ##forth :test"
13:58:22
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : T .\" \rNOTICE ##forth :test" ; T
13:58:30
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
veltas: it's being pinged out by the server
13:58:37
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
I don't know the cause
13:59:02
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." \x41"
13:59:04
##forth
<veltas>
Probably something you've changed with input is dropping your pings? Or dropping your pongs?
13:59:14
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." x41"
13:59:33
##forth
<veltas>
pgimeno: I missed that the bot isn't even in the channel right now
13:59:35
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
yeah I am debugging
13:59:37
##forth
<pgimeno>
oh right
13:59:55
##forth
<vms14>
ghodawalaaman btw please make it show the errors when you can
13:59:59
##forth
<user51>
nick gforth_eval_bot
14:00:07
##forth
<user51>
oh, darn :)
14:00:34
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
vms14: yeah I will redirect stderr to stdin so that we can see the error messages
14:00:40
##forth
<vms14>
:D
14:00:46
##forth
<vms14>
I cannot help you with bash
14:00:48
##forth
<veltas>
to stdout you mean?
14:00:52
##forth
<vms14>
but I can with perl
14:01:16
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
veltas: oh yes, stdout
14:01:48
##forth
<veltas>
vms14: 2>&1
14:03:22
##forth
<vms14>
yeah, but I mean in general
14:03:43
##forth
<vms14>
gforth! ." :D"
14:03:53
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth ." :D"
14:03:53
##forth
<vms14>
lol
14:04:12
##forth
<xentrac>
vms14: I suspect you will consider PostScript very easy
14:04:16
##forth
<vms14>
I'm waking up yet
14:04:27
##forth
<vms14>
xentrac I have no idea
14:04:37
##forth
<xentrac>
hahaha, good job pgimeno
14:04:52
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : TEST .\" \rNOTICE ##forth :test" ; TEST
14:05:10
##forth
<xentrac>
and good job ghodawalaaman
14:05:15
##forth
<vms14>
my main concern was because of rpn
14:05:16
##forth
<pgimeno>
veltas: oh no you crashed vms14!
14:05:29
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
lol
14:05:50
##forth
<vms14>
rpn is quite unintuitive and I find it very hard to do even the most simple things
14:06:03
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
emanuele6 said there is something wrong with "[[ $line =~ $regex ]] || echo "Something weird happened" >> log;" but I don't know what's wrong in the line
14:06:30
##forth
<xentrac>
vms14: it may be helpful to use an HP calculator to do some calculations
14:06:34
##forth
<vms14>
so I wonder if ps being rpn will also have the same problem
14:06:44
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah looks like I did
14:06:53
##forth
<xentrac>
RPN is a thing you can learn
14:07:12
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : TEST .\" \r\nNOTICE ##forth :test" ; TEST
14:07:23
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth : TEST .\" test" ; TEST
14:07:24
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
test
14:07:30
##forth
<veltas>
Seems legit
14:07:39
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth 1 2 + .
14:07:49
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth 1 2 + .
14:07:58
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth 1 .
14:10:53
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth ." hello"
14:10:53
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
hello
14:11:39
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
I just added quotes(") to the BOT_NAME and also patched the printf statement
14:11:45
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
I didn't change anything else
14:12:10
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." 1 "
14:12:11
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
1
14:12:37
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth 13 emit ." NOTICE ##forth :test"
14:12:40
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth decimal 1 .
14:12:50
##forth
<veltas>
pgimeno: I already did that
14:13:04
##forth
<veltas>
.\" with \r
14:13:10
##forth
<pgimeno>
ok
14:13:24
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth 65 emit ." NOTICE ##forth :test"
14:13:36
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." NOTICE ##forth :test"
14:13:46
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." NOTICE forth test"
14:13:47
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
NOTICE forth test
14:13:57
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." NOTICE forth :test"
14:13:58
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
NOTICE forth :test
14:14:01
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." NOTICE #forth :test"
14:14:08
##forth
<pgimeno>
it doesn't like the #
14:14:16
##forth
<pgimeno>
!gforth ." #"
14:14:34
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah but it also dislikes `1 .` over `." 1 "`, which should be the same
14:14:57
##forth
<veltas>
!gforth ." 1" space
14:15:36
##forth
<vms14>
yesterday was working fine
14:15:52
##forth
<vms14>
rip
14:16:17
##forth
* ghodawalaaman debugging it
14:29:00
##forth
<xentrac>
vms14: even after 40+ years I still don't find RPN as readable as infix notation, but I also don't think of it as being very hard
14:29:53
##forth
<vms14>
yeah it's also the fact that I have to get used to
14:30:54
##forth
<xentrac>
do you do calculations?
14:30:54
##forth
<vms14>
but my toy language sucks for more than a hello world and I like to blame rpn
14:32:04
##forth
<xentrac>
that is a thing you could productively do on an HP-48GX or HP-12C to wire RPN into your brain
14:32:15
##forth
<xentrac>
but it has to be something you're interested in
14:32:43
##forth
<xentrac>
do you do any kind of science or engineering thing that involves numerical calculations
14:35:35
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth 1 1 + .
14:35:36
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
2
14:35:41
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
finally!
14:35:47
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
Thank you emanuele6
14:35:59
##forth
<user51>
!gforth ping localhost
14:38:29
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth s" ping localhost" system
14:38:31
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
PING localhost(localhost (::1)) 56 data bytes
14:38:55
##forth
<vms14>
xentrac no, but I like to play with the js version of my abomination
14:39:05
##forth
<vms14>
since it can mess with the dom and the canvas
14:39:10
##forth
<vms14>
and draw rectangles!
14:41:08
##forth
<xentrac>
vms14: graphics involves a lot of math but not a lot of ad-hoc calculations of the kind I'm talking about
14:43:22
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth something
14:48:42
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth 1 2 + .
14:48:43
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
3
14:51:35
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
!gforth unknown_word
14:51:45
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
vms14: not it outputs errors too!
14:51:49
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
s/not/now
14:59:16
##forth
<vms14>
that's cool
14:59:26
##forth
<vms14>
now I can realize whether I'm stupid or not
14:59:28
##forth
<vms14>
:D
15:02:13
##forth
<user51>
!gforth s" strace gforth -e bye" system bye
15:02:14
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
sh: 1: strace: not found
15:02:18
##forth
<user51>
ow
15:03:14
##forth
<user51>
!gforth s" file /bin/*" system
15:03:15
##forth
<gforth_eval_bot>
/bin/bash: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86
15:05:08
##forth
<user51>
huh, an echo binary. i thought it was a shell builtin.
15:07:12
##forth
<xentrac>
usually both
15:07:19
##forth
<xentrac>
for hysterical raisins
15:13:29
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
vms14: btw you can join #bsah if you want to spam gforth commands ^^
15:13:49
##forth
<vms14>
that's cool
15:13:55
##forth
<vms14>
I will try to remember that channel
15:14:01
##forth
<vms14>
or at least that it exists
15:14:10
##forth
<vms14>
I have gforth installed though
15:14:23
##forth
<vms14>
so I would test there and then showcase my abilities here
15:14:25
##forth
<vms14>
xd
15:14:31
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
yeah it's better to run command locally :)
15:14:56
##forth
<vms14>
still the bot is really helping this channel a lot
15:15:04
##forth
<vms14>
you can see how active it has become
15:15:26
##forth
<vms14>
and it keeps the forth topic more focused
15:16:16
##forth
<ghodawalaaman>
yeah, I have really learned a lot about forth in this week
15:20:54
##forth
<xentrac>
> An impossibly large buffer error is even worse, because these errors often linger in the background, quietly overwriting your state with evil; if a misaligned memory access is like a criminal burning down your house in a fail-stop manner, an impossibly large buffer error is like a criminal who breaks into your house, sprinkles sand atop random bedsheets and toothbrushes, and then waits for you to slowly
15:21:00
##forth
<xentrac>
discover that your world has been tainted by madness.
16:31:40
##forth
<veltas>
xentrac: Re your HN post about space in Barcelona, I'd say steel framed buildings are quite cheap to build if you don't get to the typical 'skyscraper' level. But any building is built to make a profit so it depends on the local market
16:32:12
##forth
<veltas>
ghodawalaaman: Yeah I agree with vms14, a bot is extremely helpful, it will be a huge aid to new learners
16:35:00
##forth
<veltas>
xentrac: I think life and cynicism with government is just turning me into a libertarian at this point, just let the market figure it out
16:36:19
##forth
<veltas>
Don't try to regulate this stuff. I'm not saying don't protest or form unions, that's part of the market IMO, I'm just saying the solution exists in money, not enforcement of non-violent disputes
16:40:28
##forth
<vms14>
yeah, get rich first, then the world will obey you
16:40:36
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: I thought so too, so I was surprised that the one case I analyzed didn't end up quite cheap. but it did exceed the typical skyscraper level by a lot. Any idea how I could get reliable information about the costs of a more typical building?
16:40:38
##forth
<vms14>
if you are poor then f u
16:42:18
##forth
<xentrac>
vms14: living in poverty due to a severe local deficiency of capitalism, I long for a less regulated environment with more capitalism and more productivity and wealth for everyone
16:42:22
##forth
<veltas>
Not sure, my only knowledge is short prefab steel commercial buildings
16:43:08
##forth
<vms14>
where do you live?
16:43:13
##forth
<xentrac>
Argentina
16:43:17
##forth
<vms14>
oh
16:43:25
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: built at a factory and transported fully built to an installation site where they're placed on top of pre-poured concrete?
16:43:32
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah
16:43:47
##forth
<veltas>
And that's insanely cheap compared to a 'house', and better quality IMO
16:43:50
##forth
<veltas>
And will last longer
16:44:06
##forth
<xentrac>
it's true that they're insanely cheap
16:44:09
##forth
<veltas>
There's a lot of interesting engineering problems in this
16:44:13
##forth
<vms14>
I didn't hear too much about argentina, just something like the economy is not good
16:44:19
##forth
<xentrac>
the ones I've used have not been better quality
16:44:25
##forth
<vms14>
but at least it's not venezuela
16:44:31
##forth
<xentrac>
yes, I agree
16:45:10
##forth
<vms14>
I heard some people save money here to then come to argentina and live like a king
16:45:15
##forth
<xentrac>
note that Venezuela is worse specifically because of being more regulated and even less capitalist than Argentina
16:46:13
##forth
<xentrac>
where are you?
16:47:19
##forth
<vms14>
Barcelona
16:49:02
##forth
<veltas>
In the UK it's getting less and less attractive to let property, partly because of gov policy. So a lot of landlords are actually just selling up. Been great for first time buyers, loads going on market
16:49:06
##forth
<xentrac>
heh, amusingly the comment of mine veltas was commenting on is largely about Barcelona
16:49:30
##forth
<veltas>
However the poorest won't be able to afford a property so will have to rent, and now there's less options and what's left has gone up!
16:52:21
##forth
<veltas>
Comes down to this, imagine this person: "I have the money to solve this problem, and the means, and I am motivated by the profit I could make: but the government won't let me do it that way, and it's not profitable otherwise"
16:52:53
##forth
<vms14>
xentrac I'm very disconnected from the world
16:53:09
##forth
<vms14>
usually it's in irc where people tells me what happens in my country xd
16:54:30
##forth
<veltas>
This has got to be one reason why so much investment is in stuff like AI, because all the 'real problems' are so regulated it's not worth touching them
16:55:10
##forth
<dzho>
some friends have noted elsewhere that there are diminishing returns to building up: The higher you go, the more elevator space is needed to accomodate the additional floors.
16:55:49
##forth
<dzho>
No one wants to live where they have to wait a long time for an elevator. Not to mention the various safety problems with that.
16:55:59
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: yeah, the Burj Khalifa had to use super fast elevators so it could use fewer of them
16:56:01
##forth
<veltas>
The race upwards in the US during the 20's was because it was actually financially worth it, because there's a lot of business benefitting from being 'close'
16:56:10
##forth
<veltas>
And basically no regulation
16:56:16
##forth
* dzho nods
16:56:32
##forth
<veltas>
100 years on there's no such incentive, technology enables the closeness without the physical proximity
16:56:47
##forth
<vms14>
I'm not brave enough to live in a skyscraper I guess
16:57:08
##forth
<veltas>
The "work from home" phenomenon has been playing out for 100 years, it's cheaper to learn distance communication, and that's been evolving continuously in that time
16:57:12
##forth
<vms14>
just an elevator with glass where you can see the outside traumatizes me xd
16:57:16
##forth
<dzho>
What a lot of this kind of conversation in English tends to avoid is how car dependent have become a lot of the countries where English is the primary language, with the US being the worst.
16:57:20
##forth
<veltas>
In the 20's a lot of people were still using horses to get around
16:57:33
##forth
<veltas>
That's part of it dzho
16:57:48
##forth
<veltas>
Cars but also metros have helped get us out of skyscrapers
16:58:22
##forth
<dzho>
Densities like that of Amsterdam, which doesn't really have skyscrapers, do pretty well.
16:58:40
##forth
<veltas>
Regulation and land prevented that
16:59:16
##forth
<veltas>
Skyscrapers are a US phenomenon, they were campaigned against but the supreme court found that there was no govt right to regulate that kind of building
16:59:29
##forth
<veltas>
Whereas in the UK it was just outright illegal, and I'm assuming amsterdam too
16:59:31
##forth
<vms14>
we have a giant dildo in barcelona
16:59:40
##forth
<veltas>
But the US benefitted from the lack of regulation
16:59:41
##forth
<dzho>
eventually regulations did go into effect, see all the talk about "zoning"
16:59:50
##forth
<vms14>
I always think some female giant will come some day and use it
16:59:55
##forth
<veltas>
lol
17:00:03
##forth
<dzho>
oof
17:00:46
##forth
<dzho>
the phallic character of towers and various monuments have long been noted.
17:01:37
##forth
<veltas>
The shape is to do with profit and the sudden availability of cheap steel to build up in small desirable places
17:01:55
##forth
<veltas>
So related to the phallus I guess because that's also about 'profit' and 'desirable places'
17:02:21
##forth
<veltas>
Lowers the tone of the conversation a bit though
17:02:50
##forth
* dzho nods
17:02:55
##forth
<veltas>
vms14: Maybe I have an innocent mind, but it doesn't look particularly lewd to me
17:03:23
##forth
<veltas>
You can just complain about it being ugly, that's fair, it is quite ugly
17:03:30
##forth
<dzho>
anyway, there is a lot that goes into this issue, some of it definitely technical, but so much more of it now is strictly political
17:03:33
##forth
<veltas>
But these buildings are built for profit, not looks
17:03:38
##forth
<dzho>
political/social
17:03:46
##forth
<veltas>
My opinion is it's worth removing the politics and just making it about money
17:03:49
##forth
<dzho>
like, we know how to build what we need
17:04:01
##forth
<dzho>
money is an implementation of politics
17:04:15
##forth
<veltas>
Yes but I'm saying remove as much politics as possible
17:04:50
##forth
<dzho>
well
17:05:29
##forth
<dzho>
I guess I try to draw a distinction between immediate and obvious partisanship and the way social connections and politics overlap
17:06:07
##forth
<dzho>
because there's no getting around that these are inherently social questions: how do people live, and live near each other?
17:06:31
##forth
<veltas>
I'm just becoming very open to libertarian arguments about how to do that
17:06:40
##forth
<dzho>
hmm.
17:07:02
##forth
<dzho>
libertarianism tends to focus on the individual more than generally seems useful in these circumstances, to me.
17:07:29
##forth
<dzho>
the kinds of buildings we are talking about require cooperation
17:08:25
##forth
<dzho>
and a stable time horizon for planning, implementation, and use
17:08:35
##forth
<veltas>
I definitely agreed with that at some point, I just think that we're pretty good at cooperating without a big authority pantomime
17:09:30
##forth
<veltas>
Those skyscrapers wouldn't have been built if the US didn't have an extremely libertarian view on property when they started
17:09:36
##forth
<veltas>
Obviously things have changed a lot since then
17:10:53
##forth
<dzho>
things changed almost immediately: The Empire State Building was built pretty much just before the crash of 1929 and ensuing great depression.
17:10:53
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah that's why it's the famous one, it's the last 'tallest' building from that period
17:11:35
##forth
<dzho>
then again, I thought we were talking about housing, and very few of Manhattans huge towers are, or ever were, housing.
17:12:02
##forth
<dzho>
On the other hand, you've got the still very big but not skyscraper apartment buildings for instance lining Central Park
17:12:20
##forth
<veltas>
I think it's all related, but yes it's true that those developments were mostly commercial space
17:12:40
##forth
<veltas>
Companies had the most money to spend, and the most reason to be right in the epicentre
17:12:52
##forth
<veltas>
Demand changes, just because there was a crash doesn't mean we should accept the system that would have prevented the boom
17:14:22
##forth
<dzho>
and I'm saying there are always going to be politics involved. Maybe those politics are authoritarian politics, where someone comes in and says "we will build this here regardless of the impact on everyone around"
17:14:27
##forth
<dzho>
but those are still politics
17:14:48
##forth
<veltas>
Is it authoritarian if you own that land though?
17:14:56
##forth
<dzho>
how much of the land?
17:15:11
##forth
<dzho>
what if everyone who owns adjacent land denies transit rights?
17:15:56
##forth
<dzho>
"no I'm sorry trucks carrying that much steel will degrade the road too much"
17:16:21
##forth
<veltas>
Question is who owns the road
17:16:44
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: land tenure often does not convey that degree of control
17:16:57
##forth
<dzho>
xentrac: well, that's because politics apply
17:17:24
##forth
<veltas>
There's actually a lot of interesting theory about how to achieve that without a government, and in an "anarcho capitalist" way
17:17:26
##forth
<dzho>
right-of-passage is a thing in some countries, but not in the US
17:17:45
##forth
<veltas>
I am not an "anarcho capitalist" but there are actually answers to those kinds of questions
17:18:26
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: in terms of safety problems of skyscrapers, you have to consider the safety problems that come from homelessness or tiny houses
17:18:49
##forth
<veltas>
It's interesting at first anyway, and then it's boring because you understand it isn't an issue and move on
17:20:39
##forth
<dzho>
except it is an issue. tolls into Manhattan are at this very moment a huge issue.
17:21:04
##forth
<dzho>
the fantasy of maintaining rights-of-way "without government" are just that.
17:21:30
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: the difference between politics with money and politics with votes is that with money you only need to find 10 or 100 or 1000 people willing to take a risk on your project, and with votes you need to convince half the electorate, which may be tens of millions of people
17:21:37
##forth
<dzho>
there is always a "government" of some form or another. Calling the governing entity a "government" or a "corporation" or an owner doesn't change that.
17:22:43
##forth
<veltas>
Let me find my youtube proof videos ;)
17:22:50
##forth
<dzho>
I often joke that those who prefer small government should love New York, because it has lots of small government!
17:23:22
##forth
<dzho>
seriously, the authorities that manage a lot of the transportation infrastructure in and out of Manhattan are infamous in this regard.
17:23:28
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: here in Buenos Aires a large fraction of the housing stock is buildings of ten to thirty stories. things that would have been called "skyscrapers" in the 01920s and that Barcelona can't build (except in exceptional cases)
17:23:45
##forth
<xentrac>
similarly for Manhattan, I think
17:24:42
##forth
<dzho>
xentrac: interesting
17:25:47
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: yes, politics generally apply to the social construction of property rights, especially land tenure, because it *is* a social construction. there are no objective facts about who owns what property in what degree except the facts about what's inside people's brains
17:26:00
##forth
* dzho nods
17:26:14
##forth
<dzho>
I see we've lost vms14
17:27:13
##forth
<dzho>
anyway, I'm much more interested in the transportation side of this
17:27:20
##forth
<veltas>
Has an argument about how to do roads without a government
17:27:21
##forth
<xentrac>
what's that, veltas?
17:27:25
##forth
<xentrac>
ah
17:27:55
##forth
<xentrac>
but to the extent that those social constructions promote individual agency and autonomy and welfare can vary a lot from one society to another
17:28:12
##forth
<xentrac>
*but the extent
17:28:14
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah I'm not an anarchist, but there are 'ways' to do this stuff. I think it's an interesting theoretical benchmark, I just don't think it's practical over restraint
17:28:19
##forth
<veltas>
But maybe restraint is impossible
17:28:24
##forth
<veltas>
I guess that's the crux of the issue
17:28:46
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: with respect to the transportation side, I wrote a note you might like
17:33:23
##forth
<dzho>
veltas: interesting to see he leads off with highway deaths, which is a great hook for me, because I very much believe we'd have been better off to put and keep tolls on the US interstate highway system.
17:33:40
##forth
<veltas>
I'm not an individualist, I mean I don't want to live in the woods, and I think the way I interact with society matters. But I just think we've failed to really improve much over money/property/security for resource allocation and cooperation
17:34:20
##forth
<
dzho>
then I have a record-scratch moment when he mentions "tragedy of the commons" which has a rather unsavory history, but also has gotten pretty good empirical critique from eg https://archive.org/details/governingthecommons
17:35:34
##forth
<veltas>
And spiritually I am careful about agreeing with these ideas, without 'loving' money, because I think that's morally wrong. I *want* money for what I do because I want to actually have resources for my family etc in a responsible way, not because I want shiny things or to show off
17:36:57
##forth
<veltas>
dzho: Walter Block is eccentric, and I disagree with a lot of what he's said. But that video does contain a lot of solid beginnings of an argument for how to do roads without a government, just using money/markets/etc
17:37:02
##forth
<veltas>
Which is what I was after
17:38:11
##forth
<veltas>
I would prefer a limited government, it's a lot simpler and if it's all the same then why not. Unfortunately it's hard to restrain that power, but money's actually quite good at that
17:38:35
##forth
<dzho>
veltas: sure. I mean, I was into reading all this stuff about 30 years ago but have gotten very over it :-)
17:39:00
##forth
<veltas>
You'll have to sober me up then lol
17:40:42
##forth
* user51 sends a bottle to veltas
17:40:49
##forth
<user51>
cheers
17:40:53
##forth
<dzho>
heh
17:42:47
##forth
<dzho>
xentrac: I've skimmed your page there. the first thing that came to mind is various personal transportation systems there used to be in a couple of places in the US, though there are obvious differences.
17:45:14
##forth
<xentrac>
dzho: yeah, there are a few PRT systems in the US and also Canada
17:45:25
##forth
<dzho>
Wikipedia has a worldwide list
17:46:02
##forth
<dzho>
turns out there are quite a few, but I had three in mind, two of which are defunct: Indianapolis, and Durham, NC. The other one is Morgantown, West Virginia
17:46:34
##forth
<dzho>
as for cut-and-cover depths: we need to start no higher than ~125cm down because of frost heave here
17:47:47
##forth
<xentrac>
that is, the tunnel roof needs to be 1.25m or more below ground?
17:47:53
##forth
<dzho>
yes
17:47:56
##forth
<xentrac>
so that it never freezes
17:48:32
##forth
<xentrac>
that might require you to make the trenches 2.5m deep instead of 2m
17:49:10
##forth
<dzho>
around me, that's limestone
17:49:27
##forth
<xentrac>
that's great
17:49:35
##forth
<dzho>
good news, bad news
17:50:52
##forth
<xentrac>
limestone is not as soft as dirt, but it's soft as rocks go, and it's very stable
17:50:52
##forth
<dzho>
"dig" makes me think of using a backhoe to remove soil, not drills
17:51:35
##forth
<dzho>
I was pretty excited to learn of a completed project here for overflow storm drainage. The went quite deep, I think boring through granite
17:52:04
##forth
<dzho>
the stuff you learn from noodling around on OpenStreetMap :-)
18:56:22
##forth
<user51>
does it time out if the process takes too long?
19:00:04
##forth
<vms14>
I guess it did