01:14:55
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: HELLO
01:14:55
##forth
<ForthBot>
Bonjour mon amour !
01:15:43
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: STRING TEST
01:15:56
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: " Ceci est un test " TEST !
01:16:19
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: TEST @ PRINT
01:16:19
##forth
<ForthBot>
Ceci est un test
01:31:16
##forth
<crc>
veltas: + should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation
01:34:22
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: " + should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation " TEST !
01:34:32
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: TEST @ PRINT
01:34:32
##forth
<ForthBot>
+ should correspond to entries in the glossary section of the documentation
01:59:43
##forth
* crc updates forth.chat/bots.txt to provide a quick mention of ForthBot and my future [bot]konilo
02:00:52
##forth
<xentrac>
:-)
02:17:23
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: STRING SOURCE
10:43:36
##forth
<veltas>
crc: Is the + there to link when you generate HTML? Does it do anything in konilo itself?
10:44:46
##forth
<veltas>
Quick poll everyone: vi or emacs controls? Not the editor itself, just which keyboard controls do you prefer?
12:13:44
##forth
<crc>
nothing in konilo itself, it's just part of how the manual browser identifies glossary entries as opposed to manual pages
12:14:31
##forth
<crc>
given issues I have with multi key combinations being hard to type as a result of rsi, I'd lean towards vi type controls
12:21:52
##forth
<veltas>
Do you still mostly use the line editor in konilo?
12:28:49
##forth
<crc>
yes. I use the tuhi version of it (which redraws the display after each edit) some of the time, but mostly just the basic one in the konilo image.
12:33:44
##forth
<veltas>
tuhi for modifying code and the basic one for writing?
12:51:02
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: Emacs, generally, except on a cellphone
12:52:23
##forth
<xentrac>
I'm pretty comfortable with either as actual editors but if I'm using some kind of command line it's pretty annoying if some of the time b moves my cursor back a word instead of inserting a b
12:54:00
##forth
<xentrac>
Kakoune's documentation makes the excellent point that in an editor most of the time you are editing or navigating, not entering text. so it makes sense to optimize the interface to navigating and editing rather than typing
12:54:34
##forth
<xentrac>
but there are other cases where that isn't true
13:41:11
##forth
<crc>
veltas: mostly writing & editing with the basic editor; my main use of tuhi is for reading code (it's quick to flip through blocks, and I can toggle coloration if I want a quick visual overview of the structure)
13:43:30
##forth
<crc>
the basic editor has advantages in not needing a DEC/ANSI terminal, so I can more easily use it on hosts lacking that (e.g., the current hardware prototype, the iOS application, or the classic Macintosh version)
13:51:49
##forth
<crc>
There's also a 'rem' editor, which I sometimes use for fixes where I don't want to retype an entire line. That one has a movable cursor. I've only used it on rare occasions.
13:54:53
##forth
<crc>
and the 'abe' editor my son & I are working on, which is for byte-level blocks (so four characters per memory cell)
13:55:00
##forth
<crc>
this gives a 60 line x 64 chars/line block size (leaving the first line unpacked for compatibility with the standard assortment of tools for finding blocks by title)
13:55:34
##forth
<crc>
it's modeled after tuhi
14:27:18
##forth
<veltas>
60 lines is quite tall
14:27:34
##forth
<veltas>
Is that just the max, or does it always pack into that size?
14:29:01
##forth
<veltas>
xentrac: A counter-point to that theory about prioritising navigation is that both reading and editing code requires keeping as sophisticated a mental model as possible, in the hardest coding tasks
14:29:17
##forth
<veltas>
So you want to reduce the overhead and effort as much as possible in both cases, and make it as seamless as possible
14:29:59
##forth
<veltas>
However how you best achieve that may well be subjective, I've found both emacs and vi to be effective, I just happen to use vim primarily
14:30:55
##forth
<veltas>
Familiarity is a big legit factor
14:44:57
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: SOURCE @ PRINT
14:46:19
##forth
<crc>
I normally have it display a subset of the 60 lines, which can be scrolled/paged. (Most of time I'm only using an 80x20-25 line display)
14:47:20
##forth
<crc>
I find the large block size to be unwieldy. I'm much more comfortable with traditional 16x64 blocks.
14:53:09
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah being able to use 80x24 display would be a requirement for me
15:09:45
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: I think that pressing j to move up a line or b to move forward a word is less effort than pressing ^P or alt-F
15:11:56
##forth
<xentrac>
and pressing d} to delete to the end of a paragraph is less effort than C-SPC M-} C-w
15:12:21
##forth
<xentrac>
so I think it's meaningful to say that vi (or Kakoune) prioritizes movement and editing more than Emacs does
15:14:20
##forth
<xentrac>
by virtue of having a special editing-command mode, the effort to issue movement and editing commands is smaller
15:15:54
##forth
<xentrac>
as an analogy, I can type in Greek on my keyboard setup, but only using the Compose key. so every letter requires a sequence like Compose * p or something
15:16:51
##forth
<xentrac>
for typing an entire sentence in Greek, this is vastly more effort than switching the keyboard to Greek mode
15:19:10
##forth
<xentrac>
maybe that's subjective in the sense that a person could exist for whom the mental effort of keeping track of which mode they're in, and the work of recovering from the occasional mode error, outweighs the physical effort of pressing a sequence of three keys for every letter, but I doubt it
15:20:12
##forth
<xentrac>
just to be clear, though, I strongly prefer Emacs for programming and for writing prose when I have an actual keyboard
15:20:49
##forth
<xentrac>
I pretty much only use Vim for writing email and programming on my cellphone these days
15:28:50
##forth
<user51>
I'm using Vim, but I can't say I'm too happy with it.
15:48:27
##forth
<cleobuline>
ForthBot: CAT
15:48:28
##forth
<ForthBot>
/_/
15:50:52
##forth
<user51>
just a matter of time until half the logs are cowsay variants :P
17:35:10
##forth
<crc>
user51: if past experience still holds, use of the bots will drop off. None of the interactive ones people have run here over the years ever lasted
17:46:01
##forth
<xentrac>
!dpans exit
17:46:07
##forth
<xentrac>
[bot]dpans: exit
17:46:14
##forth
<xentrac>
[bot]dpans: help
17:46:38
##forth
<xentrac>
no response in privmsg either
17:51:16
##forth
<crc>
dpans: exit
17:51:31
##forth
<crc>
I'll update it to respond to the bot nick tonight
18:04:20
##forth
<xentrac>
aha
18:17:02
##forth
<cleobuline>
dpans: : test ." ceci est un test " ;
18:17:02
##forth
<[bot]dpans>
not found
18:18:20
##forth
<crc>
Dpans is for looking up ans words
18:18:31
##forth
<crc>
Dpans: ."
18:18:41
##forth
<crc>
dpans: ."
18:18:41
##forth
<[bot]dpans>
6.1.0190 ." "dot-quote" CORE
18:18:42
##forth
<[bot]dpans>
Interpretation: Interpretation semantics for this word are undefined.
18:18:42
##forth
<[bot]dpans>
Compilation: ( "ccc<quote>" -- )
18:18:42
##forth
<[bot]dpans>
Parse ccc delimited by " (double-quote). Append the run-time semantics
18:36:38
##forth
<user51>
Dpans sounds like 'DeepAns' to me.. someone train an LLM on the forth standard.
19:14:28
##forth
<ryoshu>
which forth standard is relevant? ans forth 1994 or that forth-standard.org
19:18:58
##forth
<crc>
ans/iso mostly; the newer 20xx effort is an incremental update of that and isn't done
19:19:13
##forth
<Zarutian_iPad>
all and none
19:19:33
##forth
<crc>
and then the older ones if working with systems targeting them
19:19:52
##forth
* crc is one of those who doesn't bother with the standards at all
19:20:57
##forth
<ryoshu>
Forth 2012 Standard, and Forth200x committee.
19:21:07
##forth
<ryoshu>
doesn't sound good as we have 2025 now
19:45:16
##forth
<crc>
doesn't really matter; most systems won't target it anyway :)
20:29:02
##forth
<
xentrac>
I'm finding this "ambar charkha" idea pretty inspiring: https://metaphorracha.com/blogs/news/what-is-ambar-charkha "The Ambar Charkha transcends being merely a spinning tool; it embodies a powerful movement. It symbolizes an economy in which technology is dedicated to empowering people. It is a tool that can be built and repaired in rural India, keeping craftsmanship and self-reliance at the forefront of
20:29:08
##forth
<xentrac>
our rich textile traditions."
20:29:37
##forth
<user51>
Uh, I was just asking an LLM about goin meta :)