2025-05-21 00:02:27 <vms14       > sbcl should be good at performance
2025-05-21 00:03:29 <vms14       > I'm not sure of why I have lost all interest in lisp the day I saw forth
2025-05-21 00:04:03 <vms14       > at the end what interests me the most from programming is metaprogramming reflection and the bottom up approach
2025-05-21 00:04:18 <vms14       > I guess forth gives you a level of freedom that is unmatched
2025-05-21 00:04:40 <vms14       > the only rules are the ones you create yourself
2025-05-21 00:04:58 <vms14       > in lisp you live in the lisp world. it's a cool world, but will never be yours
2025-05-21 00:05:06 <vms14       > in forth you create your own world
2025-05-21 00:06:23 <vms14       > it's only you the stack the memory and the text interpreter
2025-05-21 00:22:32 <veltas      > Lispers are quite cynical, they only ever tell me about cons
2025-05-21 00:30:54 <xentrac     > haha
2025-05-21 00:32:14 <xentrac     > anthk_: if you want low-power computing you need almost the same code you need to go the absolute fastest, because every wasted instruction is wasted energy, not just wasted time
2025-05-21 00:32:56 <xentrac     > although things like 64-bit registers are an exception; going to 64 bits nearly doubles power consumption for almost no gain
2025-05-21 00:33:52 <xentrac     > also paging: hitting an MMU on every memory access is a waste of energy
2025-05-21 00:46:51 <vms14       > I guess it's not forth itself what I really like but the concatenative language concept
2025-05-21 00:47:13 <vms14       > the fact that it is so easy to read a word and evaluate it and from there I can expand in any direction
2025-05-21 00:47:28 <xentrac     > I forget, was it you that said yesterday that you tried Joy?
2025-05-21 00:47:40 <vms14       > and the core logic of the interpreter is so simple that it fits in my mind
2025-05-21 00:47:49 <vms14       > xentrac no, I never tried joy or factor
2025-05-21 00:48:09 <vms14       > ONLY FORTH
2025-05-21 00:48:19 <vms14       > ALSO PERL
2025-05-21 00:48:54 <vms14       > and forth I have yet to learn more than just the basics
2025-05-21 00:51:02 <xentrac     > heh
2025-05-21 06:50:52 <anthk_      > morning
2025-05-21 06:50:52 <anthk_      > perl is slow
2025-05-21 06:51:10 <xentrac     > aye
2025-05-21 07:52:39 <xentrac     > just as with : 1+ < ;
2025-05-21 08:33:19 <veltas      > : <= > 0= ;
2025-05-21 08:50:27 <veltas      > Found out that Peter Pan is another UK copyright exception, public domain everywhere except here where Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital have a perpetual right to collect royalties on it.
2025-05-21 08:50:57 <veltas      > Specifically written into our 1988 copyright act
2025-05-21 08:53:20 <anthk_      > the ACE had an error disabling word but I can't find it
2025-05-21 08:53:27 <anthk_      > which disables error checks
2025-05-21 12:04:40 <xentrac     > veltas: yes, : <= > 0= ; has the same problem
2025-05-21 12:04:59 <xentrac     > I know about the Peter Pan problem
2025-05-21 12:07:41 <veltas      > Well I think it's okay really, rather they have perpetual copyright than e.g. Disney
2025-05-21 12:08:40 <veltas      > My <= def was more a suggestion for how I would implement it, rather than trying to address the overhead issue
2025-05-21 12:09:33 <veltas      > My STC Forth attempts have allowed inlining short code words like > and 0= so there would be less calling overhead, but still some overhead.
2025-05-21 12:10:52 <veltas      > 0= is one of those words that inlines really nicely on many archs with a TOS register
2025-05-21 12:10:52 <veltas      > Especially if you don't use -1 as true
2025-05-21 12:10:57 <veltas      > 1+ is probably the best of such words though
2025-05-21 12:11:15 <veltas      > I can inline that to a single instruction even on Z80
2025-05-21 12:24:47 <anthk_      > INC?
2025-05-21 12:37:35 <veltas      > Yeah, on Z80 you can increment 16-bit regs in one instruction
2025-05-21 12:56:47 <xentrac     > veltas: the problem with copyright, from my point of view, is not that it benefits someone by providing them with royalties, but that it hurts everyone
2025-05-21 12:57:14 <xentrac     > by restricting what they can do with their own computers
2025-05-21 13:31:47 <veltas      > Do you agree with the FSF position?
2025-05-21 13:32:22 <veltas      > Personally I'm not particularly pro/anti from a moral standpoint, instead I just don't know what the best choice is
2025-05-21 13:32:35 <veltas      > It seems to help some companies perform but I wonder if it's all "fake money"
2025-05-21 13:32:43 <veltas      > But fake money makes the world go round
2025-05-21 13:33:31 <veltas      > So I don't really have a principled stance, I understand the arguments but don't particularly agree with any of them
2025-05-21 13:36:17 <veltas      > I have a very high opinion of free software and open source software
2025-05-21 13:42:14 <xentrac     > I have a lot in common with the FSF but I doubt I agree with them on everything
2025-05-21 13:43:11 <xentrac     > but I see copyright (in keeping with, perhaps, my US upbringing) as a system to incentivize creation and publication, rather than the enforcement of some kind of natural right like Zola
2025-05-21 13:43:39 <xentrac     > a tradeoff to promote the public interest, with benefits and drawbacks
2025-05-21 13:44:14 <xentrac     > the benefit is that copyright holders get paid in a way that creates a financial incentive to create.  the drawback is that it prevents socially beneficial copying
2025-05-21 13:44:29 <xentrac     > well, and encourages legal disputes about which copying is legal
2025-05-21 13:44:40 <xentrac     > that's another drawback
2025-05-21 13:46:01 <xentrac     > in that light, paying Disney or Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital is beneficial, although the latter is probably less beneficial in that they probably aren't going to commission any new novels themselves
2025-05-21 13:46:50 <xentrac     > but preventing someone from putting Peter Pan on their laptop is harmful
2025-05-21 14:16:33 <veltas      > Peter Pan specifically or any copyrighted work?
2025-05-21 14:16:59 <veltas      > I have a lot of respect for FSF but confess I don't really 'understand' their sentiment about software rights
2025-05-21 14:31:20 <anthk_      > https://mathscitech.org/articles/prop-logic this is cool =)
2025-05-21 14:40:00 <anthk_      > instead of that logic sym, I'd use tkgate, for sure
2025-05-21 14:46:35 <xentrac     > maybe there are some copyrighted works to which having access is neutral or harmful, like Hulk Hogan's sex tape or a compellingly persuasive argument for beginning to inject heroin, but I'm comfortable asserting that access to Peter Pan is beneficial to almost everyone
2025-05-21 14:46:48 <xentrac     > therefore things that impede access to Peter Pan are harmful
2025-05-21 14:48:32 <xentrac     > the question is just whether that harm outweighs the benefit from modestly encouraging the authorship of more Peter-Pan-like works; in the pre-computer age it seems clear that the harm was almost nonexistent
2025-05-21 14:50:54 <xentrac     > the FSF basically starts from the premises that individual autonomy is highly desirable and that a software-sharing community where people can help one another (for example by sharing software enhancements) is highly desirable.  everything else follows from that
2025-05-21 17:39:53 <dzho        > xentrac: could you say more about Zola and copyright? I'm somewhat aware that copyright in France has more support for the notion of the "moral rights" of an author than does US copyright.
2025-05-21 17:42:36 <dzho        > but the history of the French approach is more obscure to me than the US situation
2025-05-21 17:44:27 <dzho        > (although the US situation is fairly convoluted: Despite the Constitutional provisions for federal action on this, its expansion both in lenght-of-coverage as well as what material is covered has often been a state rather than federal thing)
2025-05-21 17:45:19 <xentrac     > I might be remembering wrong, but I thought Zola was one of the main proponents of the Berne Convention
2025-05-21 17:52:08 <dzho        > I see mention of Victor Hugo here, so maybe that's it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention#History
2025-05-21 18:00:55 <xentrac     > that's who I was thinking of!  thanks!
2025-05-21 21:39:54 <vms14       > I think I have implemented does in some way although not sure if it's broken and the implementation is very weird
2025-05-21 21:40:33 <vms14       > I'm faking memory with an array and there is here ! +! @ create allot and variable
2025-05-21 21:41:22 <vms14       > create meh 0 , 1 , : oh does 1+ ; oh
2025-05-21 21:42:05 <vms14       > meh will push it's fake memory address (the array index) and then evalate 1+
2025-05-21 21:43:38 <vms14       > meh @ returns the 1 set by the second comma
2025-05-21 21:44:43 <vms14       > but now that I'm faking memory already I should change the dictionary for a region in that memory and have words with headers like in forth maybe
2025-05-21 21:45:33 <vms14       > the dictionary is a hash table and the interpreter threads them into a bunch of subroutines
2025-05-21 21:48:36 <vms14       > but I'm doing things in a way I dislike
2025-05-21 22:56:41 <vms14       > oh in forth you cannot do that xd because does> appends to the last created word
2025-05-21 22:57:04 <vms14       > in my case it only appends to words created by create
2025-05-21 22:58:16 <vms14       > it also works like in : oh create 0 , 1 , does> 1+ ; oh meh meh
2025-05-21 22:59:44 <vms14       > if you want to test it you can give this file to perl
2025-05-21 22:59:45 <vms14       > https://paste.c-net.org/HormonesTablets
2025-05-21 23:00:00 <vms14       > it should launch a repl without readline, I use rlwrap
2025-05-21 23:00:24 <vms14       > you can type WORDS to see what it has
2025-05-21 23:00:46 <vms14       > not much yet but do loop +loop if then else etc
2025-05-21 23:01:28 <vms14       > it can : unless postpone not postpone if ; 0 unless oh then
2025-05-21 23:01:44 <vms14       > although there is no way to mark immediate words yet
2025-05-21 23:03:47 <vms14       > +loop runs abs() on the increment value and works a bit differently from forth
2025-05-21 23:04:23 <vms14       > at the end everything is a lie xd
2025-05-21 23:24:55 <cleobuli_   > now forthBot is 50 %  faster , using a hashtable for the words
2025-05-21 23:25:15 <cleobuli_   > forthBot:  MICRO 3 CUBE  DROP  3 CUBE DROP MICRO SWAP - .
2025-05-21 23:25:15 <forthBot    > Unknown word: CUBE
2025-05-21 23:25:15 <forthBot    > Unknown word: CUBE
2025-05-21 23:25:16 <forthBot    > 44
2025-05-21 23:25:33 <cleobuli_   > forthBot:  LOAD 'ini.fth"
2025-05-21 23:25:33 <forthBot    > Error: Error: LOAD: Cannot open file ''ini.fth'
2025-05-21 23:25:41 <cleobuli_   > forthBot:  LOAD "ini.fth"
2025-05-21 23:25:41 <forthBot    > File ini.fth loaded
2025-05-21 23:25:45 <cleobuli_   > forthBot:  MICRO 3 CUBE  DROP  3 CUBE DROP MICRO SWAP - .
2025-05-21 23:25:45 <forthBot    > 10
2025-05-21 23:26:08 <cleobuli_   > 20 micro second before