00:01:20
##forth
<tpbsd>
as bugs go, it's a minimal one, not like the one I had last which occurred when I altered a Sqlite3 database field name and caused a hard to debug loss of index
00:02:07
##forth
<tpbsd>
thats the problem when one goes back to work on a project thats been inactive for 2 years
00:04:07
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: : LOAD "ini.fth"
00:04:07
##forth
<forthBot>
Unknown word in definition: "ini.fth"
00:04:08
##forth
<forthBot>
Error: Definition discarded due to error
00:04:21
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: LOAD "ini.fth"
00:04:22
##forth
<forthBot>
File ini.fth with moon loaded
00:04:28
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: MOON
00:04:28
##forth
<forthBot>
Phase de la lune pour Mon June 3 2025
00:04:29
##forth
<forthBot>
🌒 Croissant montant
00:04:29
##forth
<forthBot>
Une jeune lune, un nouveau depart a Paris !
00:04:30
##forth
<forthBot>
48% illuminée
00:05:11
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: SEE MOON
00:05:12
##forth
<forthBot>
: MOON TODAY ." Phase de la lune pour " 2DUP ZELLER WEEKDAY-NAME 32 EMIT 2 PICK MONTH-NAME 32 EMIT DAY @ DUP 10 < IF 32 EMIT THEN NUM-TO-STR 32 EMIT YEAR @ NUM-TO-STR CR 7200000 MILLI + 1000 / 86400 / 20224 - DUP MOON-PHASE 4 SPACES DUP MOON-ICON 32 EMIT DUP MOON-PHASE-NAME CR 4 SPACES MOON-MESSAGE CR MOON-PERCENT DROP 2DROP ;
00:15:52
##forth
* veltas in Homer Simpson's voice "mmm, croissant moon"
00:20:15
##forth
<veltas>
GCC is so large I actually find it a bit hard to comprehend how large it is
00:21:38
##forth
<veltas>
C-specific type-checking is performed by a single 18000 line C++ file, skimming it is what made me make my remark about the difficulty of programming
00:22:24
##forth
<veltas>
Because it's surprisingly readable yet seems so difficult to manoeuvre and maintain
00:23:08
##forth
<veltas>
Makes me appreciate the team that maintain it, but also reminds me why I like things like Forth that attempt to provide a simpler alternative
00:23:20
##forth
<veltas>
But is it really an alternative, maybe there's a middle-ground
00:23:33
##forth
<anthk_>
veltas: tcc it's nice
00:23:44
##forth
<anthk_>
and cproc/cparser are good enough
00:24:06
##forth
<veltas>
tcc doesn't help with a lot of useful things GCC detects, and doesn't optimize much
00:25:41
##forth
<veltas>
It's remarkable what it can do given its reduced size though
00:27:10
##forth
<tpbsd>
gah, I'd characterize that bug as 'not humany possible to grok'
00:27:41
##forth
<tpbsd>
I only work with stuff made by single people teams
00:28:28
##forth
<tpbsd>
mainly ... as I dont know all the devs involved with everything
00:28:39
##forth
<tpbsd>
ie XSLT
00:28:51
##forth
<tpbsd>
1.0
00:29:28
##forth
<tpbsd>
lol, but then Im a retired electronics tech, I never claimed to be a programmer :)
00:34:18
##forth
<anthk_>
sysadmin here
00:34:28
##forth
<veltas>
Don't worry it's off-topic anyway
00:34:42
##forth
<anthk_>
but I woudn't touch current dev systems even from a galaxy further away
00:35:21
##forth
<veltas>
I'm mostly moaning that my laptop can't really handle building GCC, or even cloning the git repo
00:35:42
##forth
<veltas>
And that's really because I can't stand new laptops, too thin, hot, easy to break etc
00:35:47
##forth
<anthk_>
I like to play with toy languages from t3x/eforth+subleq and that's it
00:35:50
##forth
<veltas>
And I like my 4:3 screen
00:36:09
##forth
<anthk_>
and I know I could pass a C#/Java course in a community college at light speed
00:36:53
##forth
<anthk_>
but the current dev envs suck a lot, and don't let me start on LLM's poisoning everything
00:37:00
##forth
<tpbsd>
and I like building developer tools for Mecrisp-Stellaris a Forth for small embedded cortex-m chips
00:37:47
##forth
<veltas>
Are allocations zero-initialised on mecrisp-stellaris?
00:38:30
##forth
<tpbsd>
no theyre whatever randomness the memory location had in it
00:39:04
##forth
<tpbsd>
but Mecrisp-Stellaris enforces a initial value
00:39:04
##forth
<anthk_>
oh, the t3xforth guy has a haskell-lite language
00:39:05
##forth
<anthk_>
fun
00:39:39
##forth
<veltas>
tpbsd: Is it easy to erase the memory before doing anything else?
00:40:05
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, there is no such thing as 'erasing' memory :)
00:40:23
##forth
<anthk_>
after trying these languages made for PhD's on Math, back to Forth looks like Elementary School
00:40:41
##forth
<veltas>
tpbsd: That's just what the forth standard refers to clearing a region of memory as
00:40:44
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, some flash chips use 'FF' as the 'erase' some use '00'
00:41:10
##forth
<tpbsd>
so it depends on the memory controller and flash
00:41:21
##forth
<veltas>
All of the flash I've worked with uses FF as the erased state
00:41:34
##forth
<tpbsd>
Mecrisp-Stellaris works on at least 65 different cortex-m models
00:41:48
##forth
<veltas>
But I'm referring to RAM in this case really, although I get this could apply to program memory too
00:42:01
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, it's not consistent however, across all makes and models
00:43:04
##forth
<tpbsd>
I use ram and flash interchangeably because memory is always limited, in my case to 64KB flash and 8KB ram
00:43:41
##forth
<tpbsd>
I develop words in RAM and when proven they go into FLASH on each project
00:44:50
##forth
<tpbsd>
and because I use SWD (jtag) at 1mb/s for uploads to the mcu, I upload again after every code change as it only takes about 0.2 seconds
00:45:11
##forth
<tpbsd>
and because it's so fast, I have a beep pn compile error or warning
01:18:20
##forth
<tpbsd>
replacing RCC_CSR_LSIRDY? with "1 1 lshift $40021024 bit@" in the source gave the expected correct result, so its a Plang2 bug for sure
01:19:26
##forth
<tpbsd>
Ive always seen finding bugs are like reading a good murder novel as one finds the bug, the killer is revealed !
02:05:11
##forth
<forthBot>
Environment for cleobuline inactive, freeing...
07:35:40
##forth
<tpbsd>
ha fixed bug ff3534, and it was exactly as I suspected. I ommited to escape a '@' in the XSL
10:03:49
##forth
<vms14>
hey forthwrights, how much do you hate this syntax?
10:04:41
##forth
<vms14>
just bounce a rectangle
10:55:25
##forth
<veltas>
I don't hate it
10:59:30
##forth
<vms14>
nor like it either I guess
11:01:05
##forth
<vms14>
I have realized at the end that Forth is an interface to the hardware
11:01:35
##forth
<vms14>
and that's not my use case, as what I want is an interface to the browser
11:02:10
##forth
<vms14>
which js is, but I tried to somehow get some concepts from Forth
11:02:53
##forth
<vms14>
mainly threading is done by collecting js functions instead of memory addresses
11:03:47
##forth
<vms14>
everything is a js function and immediate words can return one and will be appended to the compilation
11:04:44
##forth
<vms14>
I have to learn how to document though
11:06:13
##forth
<vms14>
runs a repl in node and loads <oh> tags in the browser
11:06:53
##forth
<vms14>
you can <oh src="some url"></oh> to make it fetch the file and evaluate it
11:07:12
##forth
<vms14>
and there ir a repl with websockets but you need a client
11:09:41
##forth
<vms14>
I tried to find a good compromise between forth and the fact that is being written in a high level lang with no memory access and a garbage collector
11:10:19
##forth
<vms14>
downgrading js by faking memory with an array did not make sense since I want just a layer on top of js that interoperates as much as possible
11:13:16
##forth
<vms14>
temporary words are inspired in KipIngram's temporary words
11:36:59
##forth
<veltas>
I didn't say I don't like it
11:37:15
##forth
<veltas>
I don't have a strong opinion about it
11:37:45
##forth
<veltas>
Forth to me is a retro programming language, that's mostly why I'm interested, so I'm more interested by stuff that looks old or has a retro style
11:38:04
##forth
<veltas>
But that's just what I'm interested in, don't worry about my opinion, what do you want to do
11:43:20
##forth
<vms14>
well I was concerned a bit because I guess I did not really capture the essence of Forth in this language
11:44:12
##forth
<vms14>
but it's hard maybe since they are in different worlds
11:56:20
##forth
<veltas>
The best way to 'get' Forth properly is to go use the old Forths, and read their source code / manuals
11:56:35
##forth
<veltas>
And probably requires some understanding of low level architecture
11:57:14
##forth
<veltas>
But if you just want an RPN language that looks like Forth, implemented in a high-level language, you'll end up with a very different beast
11:57:47
##forth
<veltas>
But whether it's a good or bad idea, or worth doing, depends on your goals
13:05:18
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: LOAD "ini.fth"
13:05:18
##forth
<forthBot>
File ini.fth with moon loaded
13:26:23
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: like most other human endeavors, programming ranges from trivially easy to beyond human capability
13:26:47
##forth
<xentrac>
haha, the moon is a mounting croissant
13:28:03
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: MOON
13:28:03
##forth
<forthBot>
Phase de la lune pour Tue June 3 2025
13:28:04
##forth
<forthBot>
🌓 Premier quartier La lune guide vos soirees !
13:28:04
##forth
<forthBot>
49% illuminée
13:28:34
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: have you considered remoting in from your nice 4:3 laptop to a larger desktop machine with more RAM and an SSD?
13:29:13
##forth
<cleobuline>
forthBot: SEE MOON
13:29:13
##forth
<forthBot>
: MOON TODAY ." Phase de la lune pour " 2DUP ZELLER 1 + 7 MOD WEEKDAY-NAME 32 EMIT 2 PICK MONTH-NAME 32 EMIT DAY @ DUP 10 < IF 32 EMIT THEN NUM-TO-STR 32 EMIT YEAR @ NUM-TO-STR CR 7200000 MILLI + 1000 / 86400 / 20205 - DUP MOON-PHASE 4 SPACES DUP MOON-ICON 32 EMIT DUP MOON-PHASE-NAME 32 EMIT MOON-MESSAGE CR 4 SPACES MOON-PERCENT DROP 2DROP ;
13:31:16
##forth
<xentrac>
it's true, you can only see the lune in the soirée; it's not visible in the morning in this phase
13:31:47
##forth
<xentrac>
il n'y a pas de lune le matin
13:47:40
##forth
<vms14>
you might want to factor it a bit :0
14:11:08
##forth
<cleobuline>
may be some adjustment to do
14:48:31
##forth
<cleobuline>
ma tarte au pommes est au four ...
14:48:57
##forth
<cleobuline>
My apple pie is in the oven
15:12:08
##forth
<cleobuline>
The oven was too hot it's a bit burned at the edge
15:29:13
##forth
<forthBot>
Environment for cleobuline inactive, freeing...
15:43:42
##forth
<veltas>
xentrac: I may have to if I continue down the GCC rabbit hole
16:02:35
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: I'm a bit out of touch but I imagine you canbuy a 16-core machine with 32 gigs of RAM for a few hundred dollars? is that in your budget?
16:03:44
##forth
<xentrac>
maybe especially if you don't care about the graphics card
16:23:31
##forth
<veltas>
I've got such a machine, I just don't use it
16:23:52
##forth
<veltas>
Well, 4 cores, but it will still build faster than my laptop
16:27:02
##forth
<veltas>
Threadripper is cheap now apparently
16:28:17
##forth
<xentrac>
how cheap can you get a recentish machine in your area?
17:01:43
##forth
<veltas>
Probably £100-£200
17:02:23
##forth
<xentrac>
holy shit that's cheap
17:02:27
##forth
<veltas>
That's out of my budget really, I spend my money on stuff like the house we're buying this year, and the one bad holiday we're taking for under £700
17:03:35
##forth
<veltas>
Things are very expensive in the UK, so even if I can buy a recentish used/refurbished machine for $300, that's not really a priority. I have to save that money for stuff like a house.
17:04:06
##forth
<xentrac>
yeah, hice require fixing
17:06:59
##forth
<veltas>
I'm firing up my desktop and I'll report back on how quick it builds GCC
17:07:28
##forth
<veltas>
My laptop has two cores but it literally overheats and runs out of RAM if I use more than one thread, so it should be a lot faster on this later gen desktop
17:19:47
##forth
<anthk_>
veltas: enable zram
17:22:40
##forth
<veltas>
Interesting, I'll have to look into that
17:22:42
##forth
<user51>
Two cores? That sounds pretty old, I was running a C2D until late 2019.
17:23:00
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah it's a C2D, T5600 I think
17:23:44
##forth
<veltas>
I cannot describe how cozy this laptop is
17:25:02
##forth
<user51>
Thinkpad?
17:25:42
##forth
<user51>
I've got a UXGA T601 which I like, except that it's too impractical these days.
17:26:04
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah ThinkPad T60
17:26:34
##forth
<user51>
Huh. I've had a bug where irssi wouldn't display the last line in the chat, even on a 80x24 terminal. Fullscreen/unfullscreen fixed it. Nicer than reconnecting :)
17:27:35
##forth
<user51>
There's some Chinese mobos made with new intel CPUs which I've considered, but thought that the reliability is a huge bet.
17:27:42
##forth
<user51>
51nb, bet you've heard about 'em.
17:30:07
##forth
<anthk_>
user51: try catgirl instead of irssi
17:31:18
##forth
<identity>
can vouch for catgirl, probably the best terminal IRC client i used
17:31:38
##forth
<user51>
I also have the smaller sibling X61. That's definitely a nice laptop even if a bit smaller. Too much letterboxing on that aspect ratio.
17:36:14
##forth
<user51>
veltas: You could fit a T61 board there, and get 8GB of RAM, and the newer boards support newer 45nm CPUs, and you can put a quad core there if you're feeling adventerous, and if you think about going nuclear, there are 2048x1536 panels for 15" T60 originally from R50p. The end result is probably a museum piece.
17:48:49
##forth
<veltas>
Sounds like a perfect way to burn my nuts off
17:49:22
##forth
<veltas>
That irssi bug I would guess was actually a bug in your terminal emulator
17:50:50
##forth
<xentrac>
could also be a stray escape sequence putting it in the wrong mode
18:00:06
##forth
<user51>
veltas: I believe it might have something to do with my new bashrc line 'export TERM=vt220', but it was easily fixed with f11, and hasn't occoured again. It also happened specifically on this channel, and not my other ones.
18:02:30
##forth
<user51>
I don't remember why I added it, but let's see if it breaks anything else. Also while looking at some of my config files I thought that prefixing a line with a blank allows it to be easily commented/uncommented. Maybe it's just me, but I like the.. what's the word for that, regularity?
18:07:39
##forth
<veltas>
Oh yeah that actually sounds like it's on you
18:07:50
##forth
<veltas>
Don't worry I'll keep everyone posted with my thrilling GCC updates
18:08:03
##forth
<xentrac>
I'll be excited
18:19:04
##forth
<veltas>
Looks like it failed to complete in 10 minutes before my son came over and pressed the power button
18:19:15
##forth
<veltas>
Because the light was flashing
18:20:10
##forth
<xentrac>
haha, I'm guessing he's a bit younger than crc's son
18:21:25
##forth
<veltas>
Looks like someone else can have the honour of fixing that GCC issue, I think I agree with my son it's more fun to just press buttons than worry about what may or may not be building on the machine
18:21:38
##forth
<xentrac>
hahaha
18:22:39
##forth
<user51>
Just disconnect the keyboard :P
18:47:40
##forth
<anthk_>
veltas: n270 user there :D
19:58:46
##forth
<veltas>
An N270 wouldn't get so hot
20:29:48
##forth
<veltas>
I've found an optimising C compiler written in C that's not terrible, which I can actually build faster on my laptop
20:29:51
##forth
<veltas>
It's called GCC 4.1
20:40:22
##forth
* crc would like to have a small, non-optimizing c compiler
20:42:08
##forth
<veltas>
tinycc mob branch
20:53:25
##forth
<crc>
veltas: thanks :)
20:56:38
##forth
<veltas>
I'm not going crazy, the syntax for inlining in C has actually changed
20:56:44
##forth
<veltas>
Mandella effect
20:56:55
##forth
<MrMobius>
veltas: any idea how much ram that version of GCC needs?
20:56:57
##forth
<veltas>
Also volatile changed years earlier
20:57:05
##forth
<MrMobius>
I wish I had a chart if version to ram req
20:57:31
##forth
<veltas>
No clue but as a rule of thumb use programs that were made within a few years of the device
20:57:59
##forth
<veltas>
I guess that's stricter in 90's and less strict in 00's as the performance of CPUs slowed down
20:58:53
##forth
<MrMobius>
curious about running a C compiler on my calculator that has 6mb RAM free. GCC is probably out of the question but just wondering for comparison's sake
20:59:47
##forth
<veltas>
What arch?
20:59:52
##forth
<MrMobius>
SH4
21:00:39
##forth
<MrMobius>
someone tried porting tinycc but ran into endian problems since calculator is big endian
21:01:55
##forth
<MrMobius>
so I'm almost done with my Fotmeth environment for it :)
21:01:59
##forth
<MrMobius>
Forth
21:03:20
##forth
<xentrac>
I like "Fotmeth"
21:04:10
##forth
<xentrac>
MrMobius: have you looked at pcc? it originally ran on PDP-11 in 64K
21:04:25
##forth
<xentrac>
some OpenBSD person was reviving it a few years ago
21:04:45
##forth
<MrMobius>
xentrac: I'll take a look. thanks
21:04:52
##forth
<veltas>
The Fot'meth is the weapon of choice for the Flingon warrior
21:05:08
##forth
<veltas>
I was just about to mention pcc but I thought that's a bit frugal for 6MB
21:05:13
##forth
<xentrac>
the Tweakon warrior
21:05:18
##forth
<MrMobius>
lol
21:05:31
##forth
<veltas>
You could also look at DOS era open sores compilers
21:06:37
##forth
<veltas>
Pass
21:06:45
##forth
<MrMobius>
veltas: Ya that might work. There is a neat presentation where a guys uses GCC to compile 8086 then translates that to 6502 and runs the output on a Commodore 64
21:07:02
##forth
<veltas>
The Cppcon talk?
21:07:21
##forth
<xentrac>
DOS era open-source compilers are probably DJGPP which is just GCC again
21:08:01
##forth
<MrMobius>
too bad Turbo C isn't open source
21:08:20
##forth
<crc>
pcc is available in the openbsd package set
21:08:24
##forth
<xentrac>
Turbo C might be written in assembly
21:08:42
##forth
<xentrac>
crc: how well does it work, and how much RAM does it need?
21:10:16
##forth
<veltas>
Thus begins the era of us all maintaining forks of old C compilers
21:18:05
##forth
<crc>
xentrac: not sure how to check RAM use on openbsd, but it compiles ilo without any problems. the generated binary is not as fast as clang w/optimizations, but is fast enough for my purposes.
21:19:49
##forth
<anthk_>
pcc?
21:20:13
##forth
<veltas>
The Portable C Compiler
21:20:31
##forth
<anthk_>
yes, I know it
21:20:41
##forth
<veltas>
Cool
23:09:38
##forth
<xentrac>
veltas: if we can avoid getting too cranky at each other maybe we can cooperate
23:11:32
##forth
<veltas>
How dare you accuse me of being cranky
23:11:44
##forth
<xentrac>
I meant myself mostly
23:11:45
##forth
<veltas>
I'm going to start my own compiler, with blackjack, and hookers
23:12:45
##forth
<xentrac>
but probably anyone who would maintain their own fork of an old C compiler has things they value more highly than agreeing with others
23:13:14
##forth
<veltas>
That was a joke, in case it's not clear! :P
23:17:15
##forth
<tpbsd>
I've noticed over the years that us Forth types are the most independent, opinionated and argumentative people on the Internet
23:18:09
##forth
<tpbsd>
it must be because of our Forth mindset and dedication to solving problems ?
23:19:04
##forth
<tpbsd>
I think that Forth people never become real friends, they just learn to tolerate each other
23:19:28
##forth
<veltas>
As much as I want to spiral into self-doubt, this is actually really common with any kind of intellectual group
23:20:19
##forth
<tpbsd>
I havent ever met a Forth person with self doubt before ! we are always convinced of our correctness !
23:20:25
##forth
<veltas>
lol
23:21:31
##forth
<tpbsd>
it's like 'paying for a argument', with Forth people one gets the best value for money in an argument because it's only the truth at stake, not personalities (imho)
23:21:52
##forth
<veltas>
Believe it or not we're actually the *more sociable* part of the online Forth community, you should see comp.lang.forth
23:22:33
##forth
<tpbsd>
I was on CLF from 2014
23:22:36
##forth
<veltas>
To be fair the Facebook group has cool stuff, but apparently the leaders are mental
23:22:46
##forth
<tpbsd>
that place is a den of lions and vipers
23:23:39
##forth
<tpbsd>
and poor old CLF has at least one person that a total genius or totally nuts, Ive never been able to figure him out
23:24:11
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, I agree, it's very sociable here, politeness rules, it's a great channel
23:24:15
##forth
<veltas>
A lot of the serious people are on CLF and seem to just be there for historical reasons, stuck without any better idea of where to go
23:24:37
##forth
<veltas>
Some of them went to Facebook though e.g. Rather and Brodie
23:25:19
##forth
<veltas>
gforth discussion is all done on the mailing list in the true GNU style
23:25:57
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, remember Alexander Viro ? he ruled COLA when I joined, I was too reserved to day anything for three months (which was Usenet rule back then anyway)
23:26:31
##forth
<tpbsd>
Alexander would shred idiots in minutes flat
23:26:42
##forth
<xentrac>
COLA?
23:26:56
##forth
<tpbsd>
he was one of the original Linux kernel hackers
23:27:07
##forth
<tpbsd>
Comp os Linux Advocacy
23:27:13
##forth
<xentrac>
I was only on comp.lang.forth in the 01990s I think
23:27:53
##forth
<tpbsd>
it's where Linux early adopters went as Windows ruled everywhere back then
23:28:10
##forth
<xentrac>
oh, shredding is what *.advocacy is for
23:28:34
##forth
<xentrac>
glad to hear Rather is still with it
23:28:46
##forth
<tpbsd>
yeah, she is my hero
23:29:08
##forth
<tpbsd>
Elizabeth actually supported a embeded argument I made on there once
23:29:46
##forth
<tpbsd>
it was like approval from God
23:32:22
##forth
<veltas>
There was a livestream of a zoom meeting for the Forth2020 group where both Elizabeth Rather and Chuck Moore were present, which was interesting
23:32:28
##forth
<tpbsd>
back in those days I wrote a python program that tracked all the nicks back to the source and collated them into like groups, then I outed all the trolls using multiple nicks for fake grass roots support (some had 8 fake id's) and it caused quite a stir, I was getting hate email for months
23:32:43
##forth
<veltas>
She was sort of trying to touch base with him, I can't remember. It was quite awkward.
23:33:33
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, it's sad theyre all so old, I'd vote for them to be immortally frozen at age 40 if I could :)
23:34:03
##forth
<veltas>
Tell me about it
23:34:39
##forth
<tpbsd>
Rather has a serious kick arse embedded creds
23:34:51
##forth
<tpbsd>
and my enduring respect
23:35:38
##forth
<veltas>
Were you a Python user very early on?
23:36:10
##forth
<tpbsd>
no, it was the only Python program I ever wrote, I actually dont like Python
23:36:42
##forth
<tpbsd>
and thats only because I have found it to be unreliable because of versions
23:37:06
##forth
<tpbsd>
I went to Perl instead and wrote tons of that
23:37:26
##forth
<tpbsd>
nowdays Im doing Lua because nvim
23:37:54
##forth
<veltas>
I quite like Lua despite its weird choices
23:37:57
##forth
<tpbsd>
but I really only do Forth now, and only in embedded because I'm a electronics guy not a programmer
23:38:37
##forth
<tpbsd>
Ive been addicted to Forth since 2014 after somehow ignoring it until then
23:39:15
##forth
<tpbsd>
veltas, I find lua trivially easy so far
23:39:30
##forth
<veltas>
That's what I like, trivial languages
23:39:37
##forth
<veltas>
I can't do complicated languages
23:40:14
##forth
<tpbsd>
same here as Im *not* a programmer, I only program to support my electronics habit because no one else will do it for me!
23:41:13
##forth
<tpbsd>
I do complicated electronics because I love it, but run away from complicate programming languages
23:41:43
##forth
<tpbsd>
there are people who *love* complicate programming languages, they can have them
23:42:14
##forth
<tpbsd>
same as mathematicians! they have their own unique mental processes
23:43:55
##forth
<tpbsd>
Im testing my Plang2 Mecrisp-Stellaris development system on STM32F051 RTC code atm, and Im using source written by Andrew Palm, a mathematician as a guide to the RTC peripheral
23:44:58
##forth
<tpbsd>
now STM provided dedicated bitfields to configure the time settings of the RTC, do you think Andrew used them in his source ?
23:46:01
##forth
<tpbsd>
NOPE, he insisted on clever maths and applied his configs to the whole register instead
23:47:20
##forth
<tpbsd>
example: swap 100 u/mod drop 10 u/mod 20 lshift swap 16 lshift or or
23:48:45
##forth
<tpbsd>
leaving the user to configure the RTC like this: : rtc-ymd! ( [yy]yy mm dd -- )
23:56:33
##forth
<veltas>
Yeah sometimes you actually need to take advantage of the bit vector machine you've got at your fingers
23:57:24
##forth
<veltas>
And sometimes you need to win 'em with rlwinm