2025-06-03 00:01:20 <tpbsd       > as bugs go, it's a minimal one, not like the one I had last which occurred when I altered a Sqlite3 database field name and caused a hard to debug loss of index
2025-06-03 00:02:07 <tpbsd       > thats the problem when one goes back to work on a project thats been inactive for 2 years
2025-06-03 00:04:07 <cleobuline  > forthBot: :  LOAD "ini.fth"
2025-06-03 00:04:07 <forthBot    > Unknown word in definition: "ini.fth"
2025-06-03 00:04:08 <forthBot    > Error: Definition discarded due to error
2025-06-03 00:04:21 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  LOAD "ini.fth"
2025-06-03 00:04:22 <forthBot    > File ini.fth with moon loaded
2025-06-03 00:04:28 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  MOON
2025-06-03 00:04:28 <forthBot    > Phase de la lune pour Mon June  3 2025
2025-06-03 00:04:29 <forthBot    >     🌒  Croissant montant
2025-06-03 00:04:29 <forthBot    >     Une jeune lune, un nouveau depart a Paris !
2025-06-03 00:04:30 <forthBot    > 48% illuminée
2025-06-03 00:05:11 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  SEE MOON
2025-06-03 00:05:12 <forthBot    > : MOON TODAY ." Phase de la lune pour  " 2DUP ZELLER WEEKDAY-NAME 32 EMIT 2 PICK MONTH-NAME 32 EMIT DAY @ DUP 10 < IF 32 EMIT THEN NUM-TO-STR 32 EMIT YEAR @ NUM-TO-STR CR 7200000 MILLI + 1000 / 86400 / 20224 - DUP MOON-PHASE 4 SPACES DUP MOON-ICON 32 EMIT DUP MOON-PHASE-NAME CR 4 SPACES MOON-MESSAGE CR MOON-PERCENT DROP 2DROP ;
2025-06-03 00:15:52 <veltas      > 
ACTION in Homer Simpson's voice "mmm, croissant moon"

2025-06-03 00:20:01 <veltas      > Sometimes I am a little hamstrung by my laptop https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=120511
2025-06-03 00:20:15 <veltas      > GCC is so large I actually find it a bit hard to comprehend how large it is
2025-06-03 00:21:38 <veltas      > C-specific type-checking is performed by a single 18000 line C++ file, skimming it is what made me make my remark about the difficulty of programming
2025-06-03 00:22:24 <veltas      > Because it's surprisingly readable yet seems so difficult to manoeuvre and maintain
2025-06-03 00:23:08 <veltas      > Makes me appreciate the team that maintain it, but also reminds me why I like things like Forth that attempt to provide a simpler alternative
2025-06-03 00:23:20 <veltas      > But is it really an alternative, maybe there's a middle-ground
2025-06-03 00:23:33 <anthk_      > veltas: tcc it's nice
2025-06-03 00:23:44 <anthk_      > and cproc/cparser are good enough
2025-06-03 00:24:06 <veltas      > tcc doesn't help with a lot of useful things GCC detects, and doesn't optimize much
2025-06-03 00:25:41 <veltas      > It's remarkable what it can do given its reduced size though
2025-06-03 00:27:10 <tpbsd       > gah, I'd characterize that bug as 'not humany possible to grok'
2025-06-03 00:27:41 <tpbsd       > I only work with stuff made by single people teams
2025-06-03 00:28:28 <tpbsd       > mainly ... as I dont know all the devs involved with everything
2025-06-03 00:28:39 <tpbsd       > ie XSLT
2025-06-03 00:28:51 <tpbsd       > 1.0
2025-06-03 00:29:28 <tpbsd       > lol, but then Im a retired electronics tech, I never claimed to be a programmer :)
2025-06-03 00:34:18 <anthk_      > sysadmin here
2025-06-03 00:34:28 <veltas      > Don't worry it's off-topic anyway
2025-06-03 00:34:42 <anthk_      > but I woudn't touch current dev systems even from a galaxy further away
2025-06-03 00:35:21 <veltas      > I'm mostly moaning that my laptop can't really handle building GCC, or even cloning the git repo
2025-06-03 00:35:42 <veltas      > And that's really because I can't stand new laptops, too thin, hot, easy to break etc
2025-06-03 00:35:47 <anthk_      > I like to play with toy languages from t3x/eforth+subleq and that's it
2025-06-03 00:35:50 <veltas      > And I like my 4:3 screen
2025-06-03 00:36:09 <anthk_      > and I know I could pass a C#/Java course in a community college at light speed
2025-06-03 00:36:53 <anthk_      > but the current dev envs suck a lot, and don't let me start on LLM's poisoning everything
2025-06-03 00:37:00 <tpbsd       > and I like building developer tools for Mecrisp-Stellaris a Forth for small embedded cortex-m chips
2025-06-03 00:37:47 <veltas      > Are allocations zero-initialised on mecrisp-stellaris?
2025-06-03 00:38:30 <tpbsd       > no theyre whatever randomness the memory location had in it
2025-06-03 00:39:04 <tpbsd       > but Mecrisp-Stellaris enforces a initial value
2025-06-03 00:39:04 <anthk_      > oh, the t3xforth guy has a haskell-lite language
2025-06-03 00:39:05 <anthk_      > fun
2025-06-03 00:39:06 <anthk_      > http://t3x.org/mlite/index.html
2025-06-03 00:39:39 <veltas      > tpbsd: Is it easy to erase the memory before doing anything else?
2025-06-03 00:40:05 <tpbsd       > veltas, there is no such thing as 'erasing' memory :)
2025-06-03 00:40:23 <anthk_      > after trying these languages made for PhD's on Math, back to Forth looks like Elementary School
2025-06-03 00:40:41 <veltas      > tpbsd: That's just what the forth standard refers to clearing a region of memory as
2025-06-03 00:40:44 <tpbsd       > veltas, some flash chips use 'FF' as the 'erase' some use '00'
2025-06-03 00:41:10 <tpbsd       > so it depends on the memory controller and flash
2025-06-03 00:41:21 <veltas      > All of the flash I've worked with uses FF as the erased state
2025-06-03 00:41:34 <tpbsd       > Mecrisp-Stellaris works on at least 65 different cortex-m models
2025-06-03 00:41:48 <veltas      > But I'm referring to RAM in this case really, although I get this could apply to program memory too
2025-06-03 00:42:01 <tpbsd       > veltas, it's not consistent however, across all makes and models
2025-06-03 00:43:04 <tpbsd       > I use ram and flash interchangeably because memory is always limited, in my case to 64KB flash and 8KB ram
2025-06-03 00:43:41 <tpbsd       > I develop words in RAM and when proven they go into FLASH on each project
2025-06-03 00:44:50 <tpbsd       > and because I use SWD (jtag) at 1mb/s for uploads to the mcu, I upload again after every code change as it only takes about 0.2 seconds
2025-06-03 00:45:11 <tpbsd       > and because it's so fast, I have a beep pn compile error or warning
2025-06-03 01:18:20 <tpbsd       > replacing RCC_CSR_LSIRDY? with "1 1 lshift $40021024 bit@" in the source gave the expected correct result, so its a Plang2 bug for sure
2025-06-03 01:19:26 <tpbsd       > Ive always seen finding bugs are like reading a good murder novel as one finds the bug, the killer is revealed !
2025-06-03 02:05:11 <forthBot    > Environment for cleobuline inactive, freeing...
2025-06-03 07:35:40 <tpbsd       > ha fixed bug ff3534, and it was exactly as I suspected. I ommited to escape a '@' in the XSL
2025-06-03 10:03:49 <vms14       > hey forthwrights, how much do you hate this syntax?
2025-06-03 10:03:51 <vms14       > https://paste.c-net.org/TabooBroker
2025-06-03 10:04:29 <vms14       > that's what it does https://vms.neocities.org/oh
2025-06-03 10:04:41 <vms14       > just bounce a rectangle
2025-06-03 10:55:25 <veltas      > I don't hate it
2025-06-03 10:59:30 <vms14       > nor like it either I guess
2025-06-03 11:01:05 <vms14       > I have realized at the end that Forth is an interface to the hardware
2025-06-03 11:01:35 <vms14       > and that's not my use case, as what I want is an interface to the browser
2025-06-03 11:02:10 <vms14       > which js is, but I tried to somehow get some concepts from Forth
2025-06-03 11:02:53 <vms14       > mainly threading is done by collecting js functions instead of memory addresses
2025-06-03 11:03:47 <vms14       > everything is a js function and immediate words can return one and will be appended to the compilation
2025-06-03 11:04:29 <vms14       > I tried to document it https://paste.c-net.org/KnucklesShopping
2025-06-03 11:04:44 <vms14       > I have to learn how to document though
2025-06-03 11:05:47 <vms14       > that's the whole implementation https://paste.c-net.org/EldersCutler
2025-06-03 11:06:13 <vms14       > runs a repl in node and loads <oh> tags in the browser
2025-06-03 11:06:53 <vms14       > you can <oh src="some url"></oh> to make it fetch the file and evaluate it
2025-06-03 11:07:12 <vms14       > and there ir a repl with websockets but you need a client
2025-06-03 11:07:40 <vms14       > I have https://paste.c-net.org/JulesLedger which uses ws from npm
2025-06-03 11:09:41 <vms14       > I tried to find a good compromise between forth and the fact that is being written in a high level lang with no memory access and a garbage collector
2025-06-03 11:10:19 <vms14       > downgrading js by faking memory with an array did not make sense since I want just a layer on top of js that interoperates as much as possible
2025-06-03 11:13:16 <vms14       > temporary words are inspired in KipIngram's temporary words
2025-06-03 11:36:59 <veltas      > I didn't say I don't like it
2025-06-03 11:37:15 <veltas      > I don't have a strong opinion about it
2025-06-03 11:37:45 <veltas      > Forth to me is a retro programming language, that's mostly why I'm interested, so I'm more interested by stuff that looks old or has a retro style
2025-06-03 11:38:04 <veltas      > But that's just what I'm interested in, don't worry about my opinion, what do you want to do
2025-06-03 11:43:20 <vms14       > well I was concerned a bit because I guess I did not really capture the essence of Forth in this language
2025-06-03 11:44:12 <vms14       > but it's hard maybe since they are in different worlds
2025-06-03 11:56:20 <veltas      > The best way to 'get' Forth properly is to go use the old Forths, and read their source code / manuals
2025-06-03 11:56:35 <veltas      > And probably requires some understanding of low level architecture
2025-06-03 11:57:14 <veltas      > But if you just want an RPN language that looks like Forth, implemented in a high-level language, you'll end up with a very different beast
2025-06-03 11:57:47 <veltas      > But whether it's a good or bad idea, or worth doing, depends on your goals
2025-06-03 13:05:18 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  LOAD "ini.fth"
2025-06-03 13:05:18 <forthBot    > File ini.fth with moon loaded
2025-06-03 13:26:23 <xentrac     > veltas: like most other human endeavors, programming ranges from trivially easy to beyond human capability
2025-06-03 13:26:47 <xentrac     > haha, the moon is a mounting croissant
2025-06-03 13:28:03 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  MOON
2025-06-03 13:28:03 <forthBot    > Phase de la lune pour Tue June  3 2025
2025-06-03 13:28:04 <forthBot    >     🌓  Premier quartier La lune guide vos soirees !
2025-06-03 13:28:04 <forthBot    >     49% illuminée
2025-06-03 13:28:34 <xentrac     > veltas: have you considered remoting in from your nice 4:3 laptop to a larger desktop machine with more RAM and an SSD?
2025-06-03 13:29:13 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  SEE MOON
2025-06-03 13:29:13 <forthBot    > : MOON TODAY ." Phase de la lune pour  " 2DUP ZELLER 1 + 7 MOD WEEKDAY-NAME 32 EMIT 2 PICK MONTH-NAME 32 EMIT DAY @ DUP 10 < IF 32 EMIT THEN NUM-TO-STR 32 EMIT YEAR @ NUM-TO-STR CR 7200000 MILLI + 1000 / 86400 / 20205 - DUP MOON-PHASE 4 SPACES DUP MOON-ICON 32 EMIT DUP MOON-PHASE-NAME 32 EMIT MOON-MESSAGE CR 4 SPACES MOON-PERCENT DROP 2DROP ;
2025-06-03 13:31:16 <xentrac     > it's true, you can only see the lune in the soirée; it's not visible in the morning in this phase
2025-06-03 13:31:47 <xentrac     > il n'y a pas de lune le matin
2025-06-03 13:47:40 <vms14       > you might want to factor it a bit :0
2025-06-03 14:10:17 <cleobuline  > c'est presque ça https://kalendrier.ouest-france.fr/calendrier-lunaire.html
2025-06-03 14:11:08 <cleobuline  > may be some adjustment to do
2025-06-03 14:48:31 <cleobuline  > ma tarte au pommes est au four ...
2025-06-03 14:48:57 <cleobuline  > My apple pie is in the oven
2025-06-03 15:12:08 <cleobuline  >  The oven was too hot it's a bit burned at the edge
2025-06-03 15:29:13 <forthBot    > Environment for cleobuline inactive, freeing...
2025-06-03 15:43:42 <veltas      > xentrac: I may have to if I continue down the GCC rabbit hole
2025-06-03 16:02:35 <xentrac     > veltas: I'm a bit out of touch but I imagine you canbuy a 16-core machine with 32 gigs of RAM for a few hundred dollars?  is that in your budget?
2025-06-03 16:03:44 <xentrac     > maybe especially if you don't care about the graphics card
2025-06-03 16:23:31 <veltas      > I've got such a machine, I just don't use it
2025-06-03 16:23:52 <veltas      > Well, 4 cores, but it will still build faster than my laptop
2025-06-03 16:27:02 <veltas      > Threadripper is cheap now apparently
2025-06-03 16:28:17 <xentrac     > how cheap can you get a recentish machine in your area?
2025-06-03 17:01:43 <veltas      > Probably £100-£200
2025-06-03 17:02:23 <xentrac     > holy shit that's cheap
2025-06-03 17:02:27 <veltas      > That's out of my budget really, I spend my money on stuff like the house we're buying this year, and the one bad holiday we're taking for under £700
2025-06-03 17:03:35 <veltas      > Things are very expensive in the UK, so even if I can buy a recentish used/refurbished machine for $300, that's not really a priority.  I have to save that money for stuff like a house.
2025-06-03 17:04:06 <xentrac     > yeah, hice require fixing
2025-06-03 17:06:59 <veltas      > I'm firing up my desktop and I'll report back on how quick it builds GCC
2025-06-03 17:07:28 <veltas      > My laptop has two cores but it literally overheats and runs out of RAM if I use more than one thread, so it should be a lot faster on this later gen desktop
2025-06-03 17:19:47 <anthk_      > veltas: enable zram
2025-06-03 17:22:40 <veltas      > Interesting, I'll have to look into that
2025-06-03 17:22:42 <user51      > Two cores?  That sounds pretty old, I was running a C2D until late 2019.
2025-06-03 17:23:00 <veltas      > Yeah it's a C2D, T5600 I think
2025-06-03 17:23:44 <veltas      > I cannot describe how cozy this laptop is
2025-06-03 17:25:02 <user51      > Thinkpad?
2025-06-03 17:25:42 <user51      > I've got a UXGA T601 which I like, except that it's too impractical these days.
2025-06-03 17:26:04 <veltas      > Yeah ThinkPad T60
2025-06-03 17:26:34 <user51      > Huh.  I've had a bug where irssi wouldn't display the last line in the chat, even on a 80x24 terminal.  Fullscreen/unfullscreen fixed it.  Nicer than reconnecting :)
2025-06-03 17:27:35 <user51      > There's some Chinese mobos made with new intel CPUs which I've considered, but thought that the reliability is a huge bet.
2025-06-03 17:27:42 <user51      > 51nb, bet you've heard about 'em.
2025-06-03 17:30:07 <anthk_      > user51: try catgirl instead of irssi
2025-06-03 17:31:18 <identity    > can vouch for catgirl, probably the best terminal IRC client i used
2025-06-03 17:31:38 <user51      > I also have the smaller sibling X61.  That's definitely a nice laptop even if a bit smaller.  Too much letterboxing on that aspect ratio.
2025-06-03 17:36:14 <user51      > veltas: You could fit a T61 board there, and get 8GB of RAM, and the newer boards support newer 45nm CPUs, and you can put a quad core there if you're feeling adventerous, and if you think about going nuclear, there are 2048x1536 panels for 15" T60 originally from R50p.  The end result is probably a museum piece.
2025-06-03 17:48:49 <veltas      > Sounds like a perfect way to burn my nuts off
2025-06-03 17:49:22 <veltas      > That irssi bug I would guess was actually a bug in your terminal emulator
2025-06-03 17:50:50 <xentrac     > could also be a stray escape sequence putting it in the wrong mode
2025-06-03 18:00:06 <user51      > veltas: I believe it might have something to do with my new bashrc line 'export TERM=vt220', but it was easily fixed with f11, and hasn't occoured again.  It also happened specifically on this channel, and not my other ones.
2025-06-03 18:02:30 <user51      > I don't remember why I added it, but let's see if it breaks anything else.  Also while looking at some of my config files I thought that prefixing a line with a blank allows it to be easily commented/uncommented.  Maybe it's just me, but I like the.. what's the word for that, regularity?
2025-06-03 18:07:39 <veltas      > Oh yeah that actually sounds like it's on you
2025-06-03 18:07:50 <veltas      > Don't worry I'll keep everyone posted with my thrilling GCC updates
2025-06-03 18:08:03 <xentrac     > I'll be excited
2025-06-03 18:19:04 <veltas      > Looks like it failed to complete in 10 minutes before my son came over and pressed the power button
2025-06-03 18:19:15 <veltas      > Because the light was flashing
2025-06-03 18:20:10 <xentrac     > haha, I'm guessing he's a bit younger than crc's son
2025-06-03 18:21:25 <veltas      > Looks like someone else can have the honour of fixing that GCC issue, I think I agree with my son it's more fun to just press buttons than worry about what may or may not be building on the machine
2025-06-03 18:21:38 <xentrac     > hahaha
2025-06-03 18:22:39 <user51      > Just disconnect the keyboard  :P
2025-06-03 18:47:40 <anthk_      > veltas: n270 user there :D
2025-06-03 19:58:46 <veltas      > An N270 wouldn't get so hot
2025-06-03 20:29:48 <veltas      > I've found an optimising C compiler written in C that's not terrible, which I can actually build faster on my laptop
2025-06-03 20:29:51 <veltas      > It's called GCC 4.1
2025-06-03 20:40:22 <crc         > 
ACTION would like to have a small, non-optimizing c compiler

2025-06-03 20:42:08 <veltas      > tinycc mob branch
2025-06-03 20:53:25 <crc         > veltas: thanks :)
2025-06-03 20:56:38 <veltas      > I'm not going crazy, the syntax for inlining in C has actually changed
2025-06-03 20:56:44 <veltas      > Mandella effect
2025-06-03 20:56:55 <MrMobius    > veltas: any idea how much ram that version of GCC needs?
2025-06-03 20:56:57 <veltas      > Also volatile changed years earlier
2025-06-03 20:57:05 <MrMobius    > I wish I had a chart if version to ram req
2025-06-03 20:57:31 <veltas      > No clue but as a rule of thumb use programs that were made within a few years of the device
2025-06-03 20:57:59 <veltas      > I guess that's stricter in 90's and less strict in 00's as the performance of CPUs slowed down
2025-06-03 20:58:53 <MrMobius    > curious about running a C compiler on my calculator that has 6mb RAM free. GCC is probably out of the question but just wondering for comparison's sake
2025-06-03 20:59:47 <veltas      > What arch?
2025-06-03 20:59:52 <MrMobius    > SH4
2025-06-03 21:00:39 <MrMobius    > someone tried porting tinycc but ran into endian problems since calculator is big endian
2025-06-03 21:01:55 <MrMobius    > so I'm almost done with my Fotmeth environment for it :)
2025-06-03 21:01:59 <MrMobius    > Forth
2025-06-03 21:03:20 <xentrac     > I like "Fotmeth"
2025-06-03 21:04:10 <xentrac     > MrMobius: have you looked at pcc?  it originally ran on PDP-11 in 64K
2025-06-03 21:04:25 <xentrac     > some OpenBSD person was reviving it a few years ago
2025-06-03 21:04:45 <MrMobius    > xentrac: I'll take a look. thanks
2025-06-03 21:04:52 <veltas      > The Fot'meth is the weapon of choice for the Flingon warrior
2025-06-03 21:05:08 <veltas      > I was just about to mention pcc but I thought that's a bit frugal for 6MB
2025-06-03 21:05:13 <xentrac     > the Tweakon warrior
2025-06-03 21:05:18 <MrMobius    > lol
2025-06-03 21:05:31 <veltas      > You could also look at DOS era open sores compilers
2025-06-03 21:05:54 <xentrac     > is there a better URL than https://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/pcc.ludd.ltu.se?
2025-06-03 21:06:37 <veltas      > Pass
2025-06-03 21:06:45 <MrMobius    > veltas: Ya that might work. There is a neat presentation where a guys uses GCC to compile 8086 then translates that to 6502 and runs the output on a Commodore 64
2025-06-03 21:07:02 <veltas      > The Cppcon talk?
2025-06-03 21:07:21 <xentrac     > DOS era open-source compilers are probably DJGPP which is just GCC again
2025-06-03 21:08:01 <MrMobius    > too bad Turbo C isn't open source
2025-06-03 21:08:03 <xentrac     > https://web.archive.org/web/20231212090621/http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ ragge, abandoned 02014
2025-06-03 21:08:20 <crc         > pcc is available in the openbsd package set
2025-06-03 21:08:24 <xentrac     > Turbo C might be written in assembly
2025-06-03 21:08:42 <xentrac     > crc: how well does it work, and how much RAM does it need?
2025-06-03 21:10:16 <veltas      > Thus begins the era of us all maintaining forks of old C compilers
2025-06-03 21:18:05 <crc         > xentrac: not sure how to check RAM use on openbsd, but it compiles ilo without any problems. the generated binary is not as fast as clang w/optimizations, but is fast enough for my purposes.
2025-06-03 21:19:49 <anthk_      > pcc?
2025-06-03 21:20:13 <veltas      > The Portable C Compiler
2025-06-03 21:20:31 <anthk_      > yes, I know it
2025-06-03 21:20:41 <veltas      > Cool
2025-06-03 23:09:38 <xentrac     > veltas: if we can avoid getting too cranky at each other maybe we can cooperate
2025-06-03 23:11:32 <veltas      > How dare you accuse me of being cranky
2025-06-03 23:11:44 <xentrac     > I meant myself mostly
2025-06-03 23:11:45 <veltas      > I'm going to start my own compiler, with blackjack, and hookers
2025-06-03 23:12:45 <xentrac     > but probably anyone who would maintain their own fork of an old C compiler has things they value more highly than agreeing with others
2025-06-03 23:13:14 <veltas      > That was a joke, in case it's not clear! :P
2025-06-03 23:17:15 <tpbsd       > I've noticed over the years that us Forth types are the most independent, opinionated and argumentative people on the Internet
2025-06-03 23:18:09 <tpbsd       > it must be because of our Forth mindset and dedication to solving problems ?
2025-06-03 23:19:04 <tpbsd       > I think that Forth people never become real friends, they just learn to tolerate each other
2025-06-03 23:19:28 <veltas      > As much as I want to spiral into self-doubt, this is actually really common with any kind of intellectual group
2025-06-03 23:20:19 <tpbsd       > I havent ever met a Forth person with self doubt before ! we are always convinced of our correctness !
2025-06-03 23:20:25 <veltas      > lol
2025-06-03 23:21:31 <tpbsd       > it's like 'paying for a argument', with Forth people one gets the best value for money in an argument because it's only the truth at stake, not personalities (imho)
2025-06-03 23:21:52 <veltas      > Believe it or not we're actually the *more sociable* part of the online Forth community, you should see comp.lang.forth
2025-06-03 23:22:33 <tpbsd       > I was on CLF from 2014
2025-06-03 23:22:36 <veltas      > To be fair the Facebook group has cool stuff, but apparently the leaders are mental
2025-06-03 23:22:46 <tpbsd       > that place is a den of lions and vipers
2025-06-03 23:23:39 <tpbsd       > and poor old CLF has at least one person that a total genius or totally nuts, Ive never been able to figure him out
2025-06-03 23:24:11 <tpbsd       > veltas, I agree, it's very sociable here, politeness rules, it's a great channel
2025-06-03 23:24:15 <veltas      > A lot of the serious people are on CLF and seem to just be there for historical reasons, stuck without any better idea of where to go
2025-06-03 23:24:37 <veltas      > Some of them went to Facebook though e.g. Rather and Brodie
2025-06-03 23:25:19 <veltas      > gforth discussion is all done on the mailing list in the true GNU style
2025-06-03 23:25:57 <tpbsd       > veltas, remember Alexander Viro ? he ruled COLA when I joined, I was too reserved to day anything for three months (which was Usenet rule back then anyway)
2025-06-03 23:26:31 <tpbsd       > Alexander would shred idiots in minutes flat
2025-06-03 23:26:42 <xentrac     > COLA?
2025-06-03 23:26:56 <tpbsd       > he was one of the original Linux kernel hackers
2025-06-03 23:27:07 <tpbsd       > Comp os Linux Advocacy
2025-06-03 23:27:13 <xentrac     > I was only on comp.lang.forth in the 01990s I think
2025-06-03 23:27:53 <tpbsd       > it's where Linux early adopters went as Windows ruled everywhere back then
2025-06-03 23:28:10 <xentrac     > oh, shredding is what *.advocacy is for
2025-06-03 23:28:34 <xentrac     > glad to hear Rather is still with it
2025-06-03 23:28:46 <tpbsd       > yeah, she is my hero
2025-06-03 23:29:08 <tpbsd       > Elizabeth actually supported a embeded argument I made on there once
2025-06-03 23:29:46 <tpbsd       > it was like approval from God
2025-06-03 23:32:22 <veltas      > There was a livestream of a zoom meeting for the Forth2020 group where both Elizabeth Rather and Chuck Moore were present, which was interesting
2025-06-03 23:32:28 <tpbsd       > back in those days I wrote a python program that tracked all the nicks back to the source and collated them into like groups, then I outed all the trolls using multiple nicks for fake grass roots support (some had 8 fake id's) and it caused quite a stir, I was getting hate email for months
2025-06-03 23:32:43 <veltas      > She was sort of trying to touch base with him, I can't remember.  It was quite awkward.
2025-06-03 23:33:33 <tpbsd       > veltas, it's sad theyre all so old, I'd vote for them to be immortally frozen at age 40 if I could :)
2025-06-03 23:34:03 <veltas      > Tell me about it
2025-06-03 23:34:39 <tpbsd       > Rather has a serious kick arse embedded creds
2025-06-03 23:34:51 <tpbsd       > and my enduring respect
2025-06-03 23:35:38 <veltas      > Were you a Python user very early on?
2025-06-03 23:36:10 <tpbsd       > no, it was the only Python program I ever wrote, I actually dont like Python
2025-06-03 23:36:42 <tpbsd       > and thats only because I have found it  to be unreliable because of versions
2025-06-03 23:37:06 <tpbsd       > I went to Perl instead and wrote tons of that
2025-06-03 23:37:26 <tpbsd       > nowdays Im doing Lua because nvim
2025-06-03 23:37:54 <veltas      > I quite like Lua despite its weird choices
2025-06-03 23:37:57 <tpbsd       > but I really only do Forth now, and only in embedded because I'm a electronics guy not a programmer
2025-06-03 23:38:37 <tpbsd       > Ive been addicted to Forth since 2014 after somehow ignoring it until then
2025-06-03 23:39:15 <tpbsd       > veltas, I find lua trivially easy so far
2025-06-03 23:39:30 <veltas      > That's what I like, trivial languages
2025-06-03 23:39:37 <veltas      > I can't do complicated languages
2025-06-03 23:40:14 <tpbsd       > same here as Im *not* a programmer, I only program to support my electronics habit because no one else will do it for me!
2025-06-03 23:41:13 <tpbsd       > I do complicated electronics because I love it, but run away from complicate programming languages
2025-06-03 23:41:43 <tpbsd       > there are people who *love* complicate programming languages, they can have them
2025-06-03 23:42:14 <tpbsd       > same as mathematicians! they have their own unique mental processes
2025-06-03 23:43:55 <tpbsd       > Im testing my Plang2 Mecrisp-Stellaris development system on STM32F051 RTC code atm, and Im using source written by Andrew Palm, a mathematician as a guide to the RTC peripheral
2025-06-03 23:44:58 <tpbsd       > now STM provided dedicated bitfields to configure the time settings of the RTC, do you think Andrew used them in his source ?
2025-06-03 23:46:01 <tpbsd       > NOPE, he insisted on clever maths and applied his configs to the whole register instead
2025-06-03 23:47:20 <tpbsd       > example: swap 100 u/mod drop 10 u/mod 20 lshift swap 16 lshift or or
2025-06-03 23:48:45 <tpbsd       > leaving the user to configure the RTC like this: : rtc-ymd! ( [yy]yy mm dd -- )
2025-06-03 23:56:33 <veltas      > Yeah sometimes you actually need to take advantage of the bit vector machine you've got at your fingers
2025-06-03 23:57:24 <veltas      > And sometimes you need to win 'em with rlwinm