2025-12-13 03:53:36 <rendar      > hi KipIngram
2025-12-13 06:21:14 <MrMobius    > KipIngram: do you end up redoing a lot of stack juggling then?
2025-12-13 06:21:31 <MrMobius    > like you were processing 4 things in a loop and have to go back and add a 5th
2025-12-13 06:26:17 <tpbsd       > MrMobius, I find I dont have to as each word is unique when designed, and I never have to go back to it after the embedded project is finished
2025-12-13 06:27:19 <tpbsd       > if a word needs 5 and not 4 items on the stack, that will all happen within the word design at the time
2025-12-13 06:27:37 <MrMobius    > I think that works ok for simple things but if there's any complexity, refactoring is a normal part of writing software
2025-12-13 06:27:52 <MrMobius    > Combining two things you though initially though should be separate or vice versa
2025-12-13 06:31:19 <MrMobius    > or maybe just rewrite the word rather than modify it
2025-12-13 06:40:21 <tpbsd       > MrMobius, yeah refactoring is a major interest, but real world enbedded project words are always very simple, especially when short
2025-12-13 06:43:27 <tpbsd       > for instance this is my thermometer Word that converts counted pulses to degrees C
2025-12-13 06:43:30 <tpbsd       > : degrees.c? (count -- C )      \ convert lmt01.count to degC, Temp (C) = ((count/4096) *256) -50
2025-12-13 06:43:30 <tpbsd       >    0 swap                       \ convert numbers to s31.32 and calculate
2025-12-13 06:43:31 <tpbsd       >    0 4096  f/
2025-12-13 06:43:31 <tpbsd       > ;
2025-12-13 06:44:03 <tpbsd       > it's boringly simple, there is no need to make it faster or smaller
2025-12-13 06:44:19 <tpbsd       > and the output is fixed point
2025-12-13 06:44:48 <tpbsd       > here it is reading the temp right now: t 32,3 C  90,1 F  ok.
2025-12-13 06:44:57 <ghodawalaaman_> Hello o/
2025-12-13 06:45:16 <tpbsd       > hello ghodawalaaman_
2025-12-13 06:45:24 <ghodawalaaman_> :D
2025-12-13 06:47:52 <tpbsd       > MrMobius, I could refactor a lot, but why ? the thermometer is about 1k in a 64k mcu that cost $0.60, the Mecrisp-Stellaris is about 20k, so I still have about 30Kb left that will never get used
2025-12-13 06:48:29 <tpbsd       > and the 1k is mainly that long because it's a prototype and has a lot of unused stuff in it
2025-12-13 06:48:54 <ghodawalaaman_> can someone link me to the smallest forth specification?
2025-12-13 06:49:31 <ghodawalaaman_> I am creating a forth interpreter that's why I am asking...
2025-12-13 06:52:30 <tpbsd       > MrMobius, it's very unusual for me to need to worry about >2 items on the stack in one word
2025-12-13 07:02:31 <DKordic     > ghodawalaaman_: https://github.com/uho/preforth and referenced https://github.com/uho/minimal
2025-12-13 07:04:14 <DKordic     > https://ratfactor.com/forth/implementing
2025-12-13 07:05:06 <ghodawalaaman_> nice, Thanks
2025-12-13 07:05:33 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: maybe I should implement some old specification of forth
2025-12-13 07:05:37 <ghodawalaaman_> it will be easier IMO
2025-12-13 07:07:22 <DKordic     > ghodawalaaman_: I would not recomend that.  Start with Dave Gauer's page.
2025-12-13 07:08:16 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: https://ratfactor.com/forth/the_programming_language_that_writes_itself.html
2025-12-13 07:08:18 <ghodawalaaman_> this one?
2025-12-13 07:09:14 <DKordic     > ""Implementing Forth"".  That one is inspiring, and it can wait.
2025-12-13 07:09:38 <DKordic     > The essence of Forth is composition of functions.  Concatenation of machine code is also composition of their functions.
2025-12-13 07:11:47 <DKordic     > https://www.waveshare.com/product/raspberry-pi/boards-kits/raspberry-pi-pico-3/rp2350-plus.htm
2025-12-13 07:11:51 <DKordic     > https://www.waveshare.com/product/arduino/boards-kits/esp32/esp32-p4-nano.htm
2025-12-13 07:17:12 <DKordic     > ghodawalaaman_: def swap(*D, **W): OK(D[1], D[0], *D[2:], **W)
2025-12-13 07:17:45 <ghodawalaaman_> it's forth?
2025-12-13 07:17:46 <ghodawalaaman_> :o
2025-12-13 07:18:04 <DKordic     > Yes!
2025-12-13 07:18:28 <ghodawalaaman_> now I think I might not be able to implement all of it
2025-12-13 07:18:29 <ghodawalaaman_> maybe
2025-12-13 07:18:31 <ghodawalaaman_> I don't know
2025-12-13 07:20:33 <DKordic     > def to(V, *D, **W): W[name()] = V; return OK(*D, **W)
2025-12-13 07:21:10 <DKordic     > All of what?
2025-12-13 07:22:19 <ghodawalaaman_> all of the feature of forth
2025-12-13 07:23:39 <DKordic     > I understand You might feel intimidated.  IMHO any effort will be well worth it.
2025-12-13 07:24:04 <ghodawalaaman_> Thanks :)
2025-12-13 07:24:44 <DKordic     > What are You seeking?
2025-12-13 07:25:04 <DKordic     > W/Cognitive_closure ?
2025-12-13 07:25:18 <ghodawalaaman_> wdym?
2025-12-13 07:25:57 <DKordic     > Why are You interested in implementing Forth?
2025-12-13 07:26:27 <ghodawalaaman_> because it's really interesting language
2025-12-13 07:26:38 <DKordic     > For me it showed that Python and C are far more difficult than it needs to be.
2025-12-13 07:27:10 <ghodawalaaman_> that's true, it depends which type of programming you like
2025-12-13 07:27:33 <ghodawalaaman_> btw do I keep the function name case-sesitive or not?
2025-12-13 07:28:31 <DKordic     > I don't see that as a question ;) .  Case sensitive of course.
2025-12-13 07:28:59 <ghodawalaaman_> okay okay :D
2025-12-13 07:29:34 <ghodawalaaman_> so basically now the user of my compiler can define their own DuP or dUP or dup
2025-12-13 07:29:55 <ghodawalaaman_> only DUP all capital will be the built-in function
2025-12-13 07:30:00 <ghodawalaaman_> other function will be use defined
2025-12-13 07:30:14 <DKordic     > As well as "": 13  17 19 ;"".
2025-12-13 07:30:43 <ghodawalaaman_> nooo, it will make it harder
2025-12-13 07:31:18 <ghodawalaaman_> or wait maybe I can do it?
2025-12-13 07:38:07 <DKordic     > Even gforth has case-insensitive, as well as case-sensitive, Namespaces.  I haven't seen anyone do it...  Wouldn't it be clever to make base 10 and 16 number literals their own dictionaries (or how should we call it)?
2025-12-13 07:40:32 <DKordic     > ghodawalaaman_: "": swap : ToS [ Literal ] ; : NoS  [ Literal ] ;  ToS NoS ;""?  Would this be a good test for Your (Forth) system?
2025-12-13 07:41:08 <ghodawalaaman_> yeah, but currenly it only support +,-,*,/
2025-12-13 07:41:13 <ghodawalaaman_> and dup and MOD
2025-12-13 07:41:23 <ghodawalaaman_> I have made is case sensitive
2025-12-13 07:42:22 <DKordic     > Are You aware of the idea of ""Maxwell's Equations of Software""?
2025-12-13 07:43:52 <ghodawalaaman_> https://ibb.co/F4d3Gjk8
2025-12-13 07:44:16 <ghodawalaaman_> I am making a very very long switch case, it's not ideal no?
2025-12-13 07:44:24 <ghodawalaaman_> let me googe it
2025-12-13 07:45:17 <MrMobius    > I wouldn't worry too much about making it ideal of it's your first try :)
2025-12-13 07:45:43 <ghodawalaaman_> yeah :D
2025-12-13 07:52:07 <DKordic     > In Python Variables (local, and nonlocal (including module)) are implemented through chained Hash Tables.
2025-12-13 07:53:20 <ghodawalaaman_> https://forth-standard.org/standard/core
2025-12-13 07:53:36 <ghodawalaaman_> if I implement all of core function then my language will be turing complete right?
2025-12-13 07:53:41 <DKordic     > From Python FAQ["Where is Switch Statement"]: ""{True: yes, False: no}[test()]()"".
2025-12-13 07:53:58 <DKordic     > W/Turing_tarpit
2025-12-13 07:54:17 <ghodawalaaman_> wdym?
2025-12-13 07:55:02 <DKordic     > IMHO Forth "'Standards"" are a waste of time.
2025-12-13 07:55:54 <DKordic     > Even R{5,6,7}RS is disappointing.
2025-12-13 07:57:17 <ghodawalaaman_> umm
2025-12-13 07:57:33 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: can you link me to a specification which is easy to implement?
2025-12-13 08:00:30 <ghodawalaaman_> also forth gives us the ability to store variable
2025-12-13 08:00:35 <ghodawalaaman_> I don't know how to handle that case?
2025-12-13 08:01:45 <DKordic     > I hope https://youtu.be/ViPNHMSUcog helps for a start.  ""The Next 700 Programming Languages""?  https://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-453.pdf ?
2025-12-13 08:04:50 <DKordic     > By updating Hash Table (or how ever we shall call it)?
2025-12-13 08:06:50 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: yeah but that doesn't look cool, you know what I mean :p
2025-12-13 08:07:22 <DKordic     > Sorry, which parts exactly.  I might agree.
2025-12-13 08:07:55 <ghodawalaaman_> I mean, if I show the user/developer 1,2,3 etc integer instead of 0x28943723aa address then they might not like it
2025-12-13 08:09:21 <DKordic     > I am not following...  Address of what?  What are ""1,2,3""?
2025-12-13 08:10:10 <ghodawalaaman_> if we store the data as HashTable then the key will be 1,2,3 etc instead any random number.... oh wait we can have a random number as key
2025-12-13 08:10:12 <ghodawalaaman_> hmmm
2025-12-13 08:11:46 <DKordic     > Lua is opsessed with HTs.  There might be more appropriate DS.
2025-12-13 08:15:10 <ghodawalaaman_> what do I do
2025-12-13 08:15:13 <ghodawalaaman_> I am so confused
2025-12-13 08:15:20 <ghodawalaaman_> HashTable seems like a good idea
2025-12-13 08:15:20 <DKordic     > Why?
2025-12-13 08:15:41 <ghodawalaaman_> what do you suggest? please tell me something
2025-12-13 08:15:51 <DKordic     > It is a broad concept.  It's special case might as well be linked list.
2025-12-13 08:16:36 <ghodawalaaman_> hmm, let me think
2025-12-13 08:17:00 <DKordic     > Find simple things to begin with.
2025-12-13 08:17:30 <ghodawalaaman_> can I get address of a list variable in c#
2025-12-13 08:17:40 <DKordic     > I lost the link... Challenge is most rewarding whrn it is not far above or bellow one's current competence.
2025-12-13 08:17:58 <ghodawalaaman_> yeah that's true
2025-12-13 08:18:13 <ghodawalaaman_> implementing forth is neither above or below my skill level
2025-12-13 08:33:54 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: I just realized something
2025-12-13 08:34:04 <ghodawalaaman_> the tokenizer function I am using is very naive
2025-12-13 08:34:13 <ghodawalaaman_> I can't parse ."hello world"
2025-12-13 08:34:16 <ghodawalaaman_> it will think it like
2025-12-13 08:34:19 <ghodawalaaman_> ."hello
2025-12-13 08:34:20 <ghodawalaaman_> world"
2025-12-13 08:43:30 <DKordic     > That is why there is whitespace after ."
2025-12-13 08:43:42 <DKordic     > And similar words.
2025-12-13 08:51:28 <ghodawalaaman_> DKordic: okay so I won't need a lexer or anything
2025-12-13 08:51:32 <ghodawalaaman_> that's cool!
2025-12-13 10:55:54 <ghodawalaaman_> I am going mad parsing forth lol
2025-12-13 10:55:58 <ghodawalaaman_> I underestimated it
2025-12-13 11:02:45 <MrMobius    > what part are you stuck on?
2025-12-13 11:04:59 <ghodawalaaman_> I think I solved it \o/
2025-12-13 11:05:09 <ghodawalaaman_> MrMobius: could you give me a test string to see if it works or not
2025-12-13 11:05:18 <ghodawalaaman_> I still have to parse function
2025-12-13 11:05:24 <MrMobius    > 1 2 3 swap drop
2025-12-13 11:05:32 <ghodawalaaman_> okay
2025-12-13 11:05:45 <ghodawalaaman_>             const string code = ".\" aman\n10 10 - . \" 10 \n 10 \n + .";
2025-12-13 11:05:56 <ghodawalaaman_> this worked as expected
2025-12-13 11:06:15 <ghodawalaaman_> MrMobius: I will share the code once it's ready, then we can discuss on the issue
2025-12-13 11:06:22 <ghodawalaaman_> for now I have created a workaround
2025-12-13 13:23:52 <ghodawalaaman> delgnam: welcome to forth o/
2025-12-13 13:24:14 <ghodawalaaman> everyone welcome delgnam, he is new to ##forth language :D
2025-12-13 13:24:31 <delgnam     > Hi o/ ghodawalaaman invited me here.
2025-12-13 13:42:48 <DKordic     > Welcome.  Glad to see that.
2025-12-13 13:43:22 <ajhidd2     > o/
2025-12-13 13:43:47 <delgnam     > \o DKordic , ajhidd2
2025-12-13 13:44:54 <DKordic     > ghodawalaaman: I guess You are not familiar with ""mk-counter"" example.  It is very elegant.  It shows the connection between Objects and Subroutines (hopefully functions).
2025-12-13 13:46:07 <ghodawalaaman> yeah, also it's been some time since I last touched forth language
2025-12-13 16:07:07 <KipIngram   > delgnam: Welcome to Forth and to ##forth.  Hope you enjoy learning the language!
2025-12-13 16:11:17 <delgnam     > thanks KipIngram
2025-12-13 17:54:02 <ghodawalaaman> Hello o/
2025-12-13 17:54:20 <ghodawalaaman> how many context can forth have?
2025-12-13 17:54:36 <ghodawalaaman>  public enum Context  {      Number,      Comment,      PrintString,      Name,      IfElse,      DoWhile,   }
2025-12-13 17:55:06 <ghodawalaaman> I can only think of these ones
2025-12-13 21:00:28 <KipIngram   > ghodawalaaman: I don't generally think of it that way - most of those things don't really correspond to what I would call a "context" - as far as the compiler is concerned it's just executing words.  For example, comments of the ( ...) form are just handled by the ( word.  IF ... THEN just gets handled by the immediate words IF and THEN; the compiler just looks them up and executes them (since
2025-12-13 21:00:30 <KipIngram   > they're immediate) the same way it does everything else.  Communication between then is handled via the stack, but the compiler itself is oblivious to that communication.
2025-12-13 21:01:07 <KipIngram   > One of the things that makes Forth so simple and easy to implement is that the compiler doesn't get complicated by trying to handle diverse things like that.