2026-03-13 09:27:10 <veltas      > IRC is so incredibly dead
2026-03-13 09:27:19 <veltas      > Super hard to find any active relevant channels for anything now
2026-03-13 09:27:56 <veltas      > The best you get now is stuff like this, a sort of semi active channel with lurkers who can be provoked into conversation occasionally
2026-03-13 09:28:32 <veltas      > Find it really astounding how people interested in open source etc all want to be on Discord
2026-03-13 09:28:57 <veltas      > When open source solutions exist, that can be federated etc
2026-03-13 09:29:10 <veltas      > Or Facebook, even
2026-03-13 09:33:25 <tpbsd       > veltas, so true
2026-03-13 09:34:41 <tpbsd       > veltas, I remember when I had #embedded on Freenode or something like that, 20 years ago, the channel was quite active, lots of enthuiastic electronics people
2026-03-13 09:35:35 <tpbsd       > there was a general atmosphere of activity, projects and a lot of very highly skilled people making adbanced projects
2026-03-13 09:36:58 <veltas      > 2023 was a bad year for libera.chat https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2023
2026-03-13 09:37:03 <tpbsd       > nowdays, my own Forth channel hackint.org #forth-hardware-projects has always been really quiet, no more than maybe 8 members and no one building any hardware projects apart from me
2026-03-13 09:37:27 <veltas      > You might find those graphs interesting tpbsd, look in like 2005/2006
2026-03-13 09:37:36 <tpbsd       > I only get Forth newbies popping in now ana again
2026-03-13 09:37:46 <veltas      > The numbers have declined constantly but freenode drama caused a huge decline
2026-03-13 09:37:51 <veltas      > Like halved the number of people on IRC in a year
2026-03-13 09:38:14 <veltas      > That was in 2001
2026-03-13 09:38:46 <tpbsd       > wow, massive difference
2026-03-13 09:38:59 <veltas      > 2021 I mean re freenode drama
2026-03-13 09:39:27 <veltas      > We currently have similar numbers to 1998
2026-03-13 09:39:33 <tpbsd       > yeah, and frankly I always saw the freenode thing as just a 'cancel freenode' by the lefties
2026-03-13 09:39:37 <veltas      > And they don't make 'em like they used to
2026-03-13 09:40:10 <veltas      > It was a moderator revolt but definitely the owner provoked it, but the end result either way was a huge blow to IRC
2026-03-13 09:41:02 <veltas      > Nobody was forced to move to libera, they did because the freenode owner kept proving that he was going to be a worse custodian than them.  I did hear him out for as long as possible but he really just didn't help himself.
2026-03-13 09:41:26 <veltas      > But yeah there was a lot of cancel-culture style people that were bandwagoning it
2026-03-13 09:42:18 <tpbsd       > I remember the freenode ops claiming the owner woulndnt give the self confessed 'hard working, selfless opps' the passwords and so they all decided to leave and start their own channel
2026-03-13 09:42:55 <tpbsd       > those claims all stunk to high heaven to me, and I didnt move to liberia
2026-03-13 09:43:38 <tpbsd       > in fact I only joined liberia to check out this Forth channel and the #embedded one not long ago
2026-03-13 09:45:50 <tpbsd       > in fact I started #mecrisp on Freenode back around 2014 and it had become quite popular, but when the 'cancel freenode' thing happened, one of my channel members registered #mecrisp on liberia and became the op
2026-03-13 09:46:20 <tpbsd       > he did this even before I was aware of the cancelling of Freenode
2026-03-13 09:46:38 <tpbsd       > so I have quite negative memories of that whole thing
2026-03-13 09:46:47 <veltas      > Yeah exactly my impression it was very smelly
2026-03-13 09:47:16 <tpbsd       > just pilitics I guess
2026-03-13 09:47:20 <tpbsd       > politics
2026-03-13 09:47:23 <veltas      > Did you ask for op?
2026-03-13 09:47:31 <tpbsd       > more water barons in action
2026-03-13 09:47:34 <veltas      > Yeah
2026-03-13 09:48:48 <tpbsd       > no, I was so annoyed I just retreated to do my own stuff and started https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io to be useful
2026-03-13 09:49:16 <tpbsd       > in the long run that proved to be far more useful than the ITC channel
2026-03-13 09:49:20 <tpbsd       > IRC
2026-03-13 09:49:29 <veltas      > #mecrisp is an 'official' channel as marked so I reckon libera.chat would give ownership to whoever Matthias asked them to
2026-03-13 09:49:56 <tpbsd       > I still get a few emails every month from Forth users thanking me for all the info and asking me to keep doing it
2026-03-13 09:50:08 <veltas      > I guarantee you lost a lot of users though, literally everyone did
2026-03-13 09:50:19 <veltas      > That's the reason I was against the fork from day 1, because I knew the writing on the wall
2026-03-13 09:50:25 <veltas      > Was we'd all suffer for it
2026-03-13 09:50:44 <tpbsd       > no, Matthias wasnt really into that stuff. I started #mecrisp on freenode and got him to register as the owner when I started it
2026-03-13 09:51:18 <tpbsd       > Matthis is a bit of a recluse as he has been profoundly deaf since childhood
2026-03-13 09:51:24 <veltas      > There's great regulars who used to visit this channel on freenode who don't come because they were fed up after the drama
2026-03-13 09:51:34 <tpbsd       > but hes a genius, of that I have no doubt
2026-03-13 09:51:42 <veltas      > Sorry to hear that, and agreed Matthias is brilliant
2026-03-13 09:52:16 <tpbsd       > yeah, a lot pf people were disgusted by the freenode debacle, myself included
2026-03-13 09:52:46 <tpbsd       > Matthias 'thinks' in MSP430 assembly, he's said so himself
2026-03-13 09:53:41 <tpbsd       > so I was not on the IRC channels for a few years after that, and my Mecrisp-Stellaris doc site kept me busy
2026-03-13 09:55:00 <tpbsd       > eventually tho, I had to see how the rest of the world had adapted to the removal of freenode, and I was quite suprised at how quiet all the channels had become
2026-03-13 09:55:09 <tpbsd       > it was like a cultural desert
2026-03-13 09:55:53 <tpbsd       > iirc, channels like #embedded on freenode had about 700 members back then, one could hardly get a word in
2026-03-13 09:57:08 <tpbsd       > veltas, Im suprised to ead your comments, I thought I was the only one with strong opinions about freenode and those days
2026-03-13 09:57:14 <tpbsd       > read
2026-03-13 09:57:27 <veltas      > We've got same numbers of users as 1998, but the truth is in 1998 most of those users were sitting there behind the keyboard, the overwhelming majority of users now are just keeping a connection alive most of the time
2026-03-13 09:57:43 <veltas      > So IRC is probably a lot less active than 1998 even
2026-03-13 09:58:25 <tpbsd       > yeah, all the irc channels I've visited in the last couple of years are just dead. lots of lurkers
2026-03-13 09:58:42 <veltas      > Yeah I've got strong opinions about this bloody war on Iran too but unfortunately nobody consults me first :)
2026-03-13 09:59:09 <tpbsd       > heheh, Forth people generally have the strongest opinions I have found
2026-03-13 09:59:43 <tpbsd       > they are deep critical thinkers, I guess one has to be, to embrace Forth
2026-03-13 10:00:22 <tpbsd       > I likewise have strong opinions on all the current wars, but will never discuss them on line
2026-03-13 10:00:42 <veltas      > Forth just seemed like untapped gold to me, and useful to my compiler project goals
2026-03-13 10:01:00 <veltas      > I think in other parts Forth is at least getting some more popularity, which it deserves
2026-03-13 10:01:06 <tpbsd       > Im sure I differ from many of my countrymen and I don't want to be hassled in my old age
2026-03-13 10:01:41 <veltas      > It's quite normal as you get older to just avoid that kind of discussion, I've found
2026-03-13 10:02:02 <veltas      > People don't want a depressing outlook as they lose the ability to participate or see where it will go, which we all steadily do as we get older
2026-03-13 10:02:14 <tpbsd       > I have noticed lately that when I mention Forth thesedays, I dont get the immediate dismissals and rejection by C users that I used to get
2026-03-13 10:03:12 <veltas      > Yeah but not for a good reason though
2026-03-13 10:03:35 <veltas      > It's probably because in the past there were more people who had already burnt themselves on the hob by actually using Forth and decided they don't like it
2026-03-13 10:03:47 <tpbsd       > I uses to get the  old automatic responses of 'write only' comments for years, mainly by people who didnt know anything about Forth
2026-03-13 10:03:48 <veltas      > Whereas lots of people will think Forth is okay but haven't done anything serious in it
2026-03-13 10:04:31 <veltas      > It's definitely not write only, because my experience is you can't write unreadable Forth code before your mental model collapses and you need to go back and tidy it to make sense
2026-03-13 10:05:03 <veltas      > So Forth code I've found is surprisingly readable partly because it's quite spartan so even as the author you have to be nice to yourself, and automatically make it nicer for everyone else
2026-03-13 10:05:38 <veltas      > I don't think I've ever encountered Forth code I can't read
2026-03-13 10:06:10 <tpbsd       > veltas, between you and me, personally I feel that traditional Forth is useless for modern Cortex-M development. It was fine back in the Z80 days when cpu's had zero on chip peripherals, but Forth doesnt know anything about all the peripherals in Cortex-M
2026-03-13 10:07:15 <tpbsd       > I don't blame any new Forth embedded user for ditching it as 'too hard' when they find that they have to enter all the memory mapped peripheral registers by hand from the Technical Manual
2026-03-13 10:07:23 <tpbsd       > I would also
2026-03-13 10:07:53 <tpbsd       > and thats exactly why I developed 'FURS' for Mecrisp-Stellaris on Cortex-M
2026-03-13 10:08:44 <tpbsd       > it provides all the knowledge of peripheral registers that a embedded Forth user needs to develop on cortex-m
2026-03-13 10:09:48 <tpbsd       > and because it's automatically transformed from the CMSIS-SVD file, it's error free
2026-03-13 10:10:52 <tpbsd       > veltas, agreed, Forth is only what you make it. if youre a crap programmer, your Forth will be terrible
2026-03-13 10:11:24 <tpbsd       > if youre a gifted programmer, your Forth will be a thing of beauty
2026-03-13 10:25:23 <veltas      > Traditional Forth is a strange one, it's good for controlling telescopes and doing FUD stuff in a 70s mainframe.  I think Chuck Moore focusing on hardware for years and being burned by Forth Inc didn't help its evolution.
2026-03-13 10:26:22 <veltas      > And abandon hope all ye programming languages who enter standardisation
2026-03-13 10:26:40 <tpbsd       > it's understandable. In the 70's Forth was perfect for mcu's
2026-03-13 10:28:07 <tpbsd       > but as C gained popularity, Forth lost it and by the time cortex-m came out, few embedded devs wre using Forth I think
2026-03-13 10:29:26 <tpbsd       > so embedded Forth just fell by the wayside, but traditional Forth on the PC, which had no need for peripheral knowledge remained popular with pure programmers without electronics knowledge
2026-03-13 10:29:58 <tpbsd       > and thats where we find ourself today with cortex-m
2026-03-13 10:30:59 <tpbsd       > Flash Forth on the Microchip PIC does have some inbuilt peripheral knowledge, same with Amforth on the ATmega328, but these are old 8 bitters
2026-03-13 10:31:39 <veltas      > Yeah MCUs are massive now
2026-03-13 10:32:10 <tpbsd       > there is no Forth for Cortex-M0 that knows about the onboard peripherals, because the flash is too small to contain that information
2026-03-13 10:32:38 <tpbsd       > they are, expecially the STM32H7xx series which have around 90 onboard peripherals
2026-03-13 10:32:43 <tpbsd       > 90!
2026-03-13 10:33:24 <tpbsd       > and 1800 registers etc
2026-03-13 10:33:50 <tpbsd       > one simply cant enter them all into a Forth application by hand
2026-03-13 10:34:53 <tpbsd       > when I started in 2014 with Mecrisp-Stellaris on the Cortex-M0 I was spending about a hour correcting errors for every 5 minutes of coding the peripherals, it was untennable
2026-03-13 10:37:50 <tpbsd       > veltas, those "IRC Networks - Top 10 in the annual comparison" graphs are a real eye opener to me
2026-03-13 10:38:46 <tpbsd       > I kind of knew it, but to see it in graph form really hits home how much the world has changed
2026-03-13 10:40:14 <tpbsd       > veltas, I was connected to the Internet from 1994 via a 'shell account' at home and actually received the imfamous first ever 'green card' 'spam' from the lawyers, 'Cantel and Seger'
2026-03-13 11:02:24 <veltas      > I thought it might be interesting
2026-03-13 12:34:03 <KipIngram   > Did I mention SponsorBlock in the last few days?  It's a Chrome extension that does a really  nice job os snipping "narraotor supplied sponsor messages" out of videos.  I've used UBlock Origin for years, and it does a great job on "real commercials" that are inserted after the video is made, but it didn't get those bits where the video narrator just started talking about the sponsor.  Sponsor Block
2026-03-13 12:34:05 <KipIngram   > does.
2026-03-13 12:34:45 <KipIngram   > It's crowd driven - people who've watched the video earlier mark the sponsor messages and that data's uploaded to a central database and used when others watch the video later.  So far it's working FABULOUSLY.
2026-03-13 12:35:40 <KipIngram   > I tend to listen to a lot of videos via earbuds from other parts of my house, and I was getting really tired of hiking back to my computer to fast forward through sponsor messages.
2026-03-13 12:36:24 <KipIngram   > And some of my favorite channels have started including 2-3 sponsor messages, which got me pretty motivated to find a solution.
2026-03-13 12:50:44 <veltas      > Very clever, nice shout
2026-03-13 12:51:09 <veltas      > However I don't get too annoyed by sponsor segments and just skip them
2026-03-13 12:51:25 <veltas      > But I can imagine some people do
2026-03-13 12:52:34 <veltas      > Name and shame, who the hell is doing 2-3 sponsor messages?
2026-03-13 12:52:58 <veltas      > LTT?  Veritasium?
2026-03-13 13:05:42 <KipIngram   > The Rest Is History.  And one day they had a FIVE MINUTE sponsor message.
2026-03-13 13:06:30 <KipIngram   > The video I'm watching right now (The Prof G Pod, interviewing Peter Zeihan) had three sponsor spots.
2026-03-13 13:07:09 <cleobuline  > use yt_dl
2026-03-13 13:07:11 <KipIngram   > In an hour or so long video.  So, it's not "worse than TV," but the industry seems on its way in that direction.
2026-03-13 13:07:58 <cleobuline  > download the video then watch
2026-03-13 13:08:17 <cleobuline  > so you will not have announces
2026-03-13 14:18:47 <MrMobius    > veltas: funny that you say this semi active since this one of the most active channels im in
2026-03-13 14:25:10 <veltas      > Yeah but there's days without conversation sometimes, and it's definitely got less regulars than it did a few years ago
2026-03-13 14:25:37 <veltas      > cleobuline: He's talking about advertising that's part of the video, so yt_dl would contain that
2026-03-13 14:26:09 <veltas      > But MrMobius that's not my point at all, I'm saying this is one of the okay channels right now, but IRC in general is declining
2026-03-13 14:26:38 <veltas      > If even 1-2 more people left this channel there would be almost no discussion at all
2026-03-13 14:26:49 <veltas      > Unless cleobuline talking with forthBot counts
2026-03-13 14:27:00 <MrMobius    > veltas: right. I think that supports your point if this level of activity in my mind counts as really active
2026-03-13 14:27:07 <MrMobius    > since that must mean most things are dead
2026-03-13 14:27:17 <veltas      > Agreed
2026-03-13 14:29:40 <cleobuline  > back
2026-03-13 16:16:23 <KipIngram   > I agree that things get very quiet here sometimes.  It's one of the reasons it doesn't bother me that much when things go off topic a little now and again.  I think of it as sort of halfway between a "place to talk about Forth" and a "place to just socialize a little."  It's really the closest thing I have to a "bar to hang out in."  :-)
2026-03-13 16:20:41 <tpbsd       > 
ACTION has meber been to a bar, never been drunk or even tipsy in his entire life ...

2026-03-13 16:20:47 <tpbsd       > never
2026-03-13 16:21:16 <tpbsd       > and ay 71+ hes now far to old to learn to like alcohol
2026-03-13 16:27:28 <veltas      > Good for you
2026-03-13 16:27:38 <veltas      > I find when I'm busy and happy I don't want to drink at all
2026-03-13 16:28:51 <veltas      > I recommend it to people who complain about being anxious etc because I am not invested in big pharma or the psychology industry but ultimately it's probably best to not drink
2026-03-13 16:29:01 <veltas      > People complain too much
2026-03-13 16:30:15 <cleobuline  > forthBot: LOAD ini.fth
2026-03-13 16:30:15 <forthBot    > File ini.fth with MOON  loaded
2026-03-13 16:30:19 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  fee
2026-03-13 16:30:32 <tpbsd       > Im a odd case tho not unique, my parents never drank alcohol and I was too involved with my own electronics obsession as a kid at home to ever get involved with the kids at school that were into drinking and smoking etc. I saw all that stuff as far too boring
2026-03-13 16:31:00 <veltas      > I have always been friends with loads of smokers and drinkers, but I've never felt pressured to smoke
2026-03-13 16:31:09 <tpbsd       > cool
2026-03-13 16:31:15 <forthBot    > https://i.ibb.co/9mtxnQRG/zozo-img.png
2026-03-13 16:31:48 <tpbsd       > I also never felt any pressure to do anything I didnt want to. I've always been unaffected by peer pressure
2026-03-13 16:32:53 <tpbsd       > lol, that also extended to school and homework, because I never could drag myself away from my electronics books or experiments long enough to do homework for school
2026-03-13 16:32:58 <veltas      > I grew up around alcohol so wanted to drink
2026-03-13 16:33:32 <veltas      > Also around cigarettes but that was always indicated to be negative by my parents, and they were always trying to quit
2026-03-13 16:33:39 <tpbsd       > when they asked me at school. 'where is your homework' I'd just shrug it off and reply I didnt do it
2026-03-13 16:33:51 <KipIngram   > I'm not much of a drinker, and particularly don't like drinking to the point of impairment.  I have 2-3 drinks a week, and not all in one go.  :-)
2026-03-13 16:34:07 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  SEE fee
2026-03-13 16:34:07 <forthBot    > : fee S" une image photoréaliste d'une fée dans un paysage enchanté   "S IMAGE ;
2026-03-13 16:34:13 <KipIngram   > When I invoked "bar" above I was thinking mostly of the "Cheers style" social aspects.
2026-03-13 16:34:26 <veltas      > I don't regret that at all and alcohol has been a social lubricant and self-medicator for many years, it's helped me be independent etc.  I barely drink at the moment.
2026-03-13 16:35:00 <tpbsd       > I think my teachers considered me least likely to succeed at anything, while I considered them to be boring government day care workers
2026-03-13 16:35:09 <veltas      > I recommend it genuinely to people who moan about being anxious etc all the time, I hold it in higher regard than most approved approaches to fixing that
2026-03-13 16:35:26 <veltas      > tpbsd: Yeah sometimes kids are bored because they're stupid, and sometimes the opposite
2026-03-13 16:36:07 <veltas      > I mean everyone I know who has counselling or therapy seems to come out worse for it (but will tell everyone how great it is)
2026-03-13 16:36:25 <veltas      > I think talking about your feelings is a sure fire way to turn into an asshole, especially for men
2026-03-13 16:37:13 <tpbsd       > Ive also never been anxious about anything except the most life threatening things. I saw learning to fly a helicopter as extreme fun unlike some people who are paralysed by fear when riding in a small helicopter
2026-03-13 16:38:55 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  : monster S" un monstre affreux avec des yeux globuleux et des tentacules "S IMAGE ;
2026-03-13 16:39:41 <tpbsd       > I have always been addicted to meditation, but thats a purely singular pastime for me
2026-03-13 16:40:16 <cleobuline  > forthBot:  monster
2026-03-13 16:40:41 <veltas      > Do they have the "stiff upper lip" in Australia too?
2026-03-13 16:41:00 <forthBot    > https://i.ibb.co/HDWkQYH2/zozo-img.png
2026-03-13 16:41:30 <tpbsd       > some do, but some are just afraid of losing their lives
2026-03-13 16:43:24 <tpbsd       > I was a a bush fire officer for about 5 years and very involved in a few mega fires. Ive had grown men who I thought were tough run away for their lifes in the 'heat' of the moment, leaving me fighting the fire alone
2026-03-13 16:45:00 <tpbsd       > and I've seen men about 1000x yougher than me, I think they were made of asbestos
2026-03-13 16:45:08 <tpbsd       > toughter
2026-03-13 16:46:36 <tpbsd       > I watched one guy approach a group of about 500 firefighters, I had never seen him before, but everyone was silent when he approached, you could feel his aura. I think kings of old must have been men like that
2026-03-13 16:47:28 <tpbsd       > then he climbed into a tractor, lowered the blade and drove into the bush fire holding a free arm up in the air in front of his face
2026-03-13 16:47:59 <tpbsd       > I couldnt approach that fire close than about 500 yards because of the heat
2026-03-13 16:48:41 <tpbsd       > I just was incapable of doing what he did, and I had lots of experience at that time
2026-03-13 16:49:41 <tpbsd       > I never met him or spoke to him, but I still remember that moment about 30 years ago
2026-03-13 16:50:12 <veltas      > Wow
2026-03-13 16:50:15 <veltas      > Incredible
2026-03-13 16:50:42 <tpbsd       > yeah, but for that one incident, I myself wouldnt believe that men like that exist
2026-03-13 16:51:29 <tpbsd       > maybe he was the only one;-)
2026-03-13 16:51:57 <tpbsd       > it's like the cow that learnt to walk on 'cattle grids' ....
2026-03-13 16:52:22 <tpbsd       > I lived on a house on a farm once, tho Im not a farmer and never have been
2026-03-13 16:52:55 <tpbsd       > one day I saw a cow walk on the cattle grids and escape the farm, the farmer took off after it
2026-03-13 16:53:21 <tpbsd       > I was amazed and asked the farmer what he did with that amazing cow
2026-03-13 16:54:17 <tpbsd       > "I shot it" he said "we cant have cows that smart on the farm or we couldnt manage them" he replied ... I was shocked
2026-03-13 16:56:12 <tpbsd       > makes sense tho, in a very disheartning way to me as I value intelligence highly
2026-03-13 17:00:42 <veltas      > That's why they're 'domesticated' breeds
2026-03-13 17:01:08 <veltas      > I'm a domesticated breed too, we all are
2026-03-13 17:01:44 <tpbsd       > yeah
2026-03-13 17:02:32 <tpbsd       > good point
2026-03-13 18:41:00 <forthBot    > Environment for cleobuline inactive, freeing...
2026-03-13 19:26:50 <KipIngram   > Well,
2026-03-13 19:27:21 <KipIngram   > Ooops.  "mpv <video url>" works great.  The problem, though, is that I can't get any of the supposed browser extensions that are supposed to launch that for me to work.
2026-03-13 19:28:10 <KipIngram   > You'd THINK it would be easy - you'd think there would just be a per-file-type config file I could edit somewhere to add an item to the context menu, and have it run a script.  But no - that's been made super complex for "security reasons."
2026-03-13 19:28:29 <KipIngram   > You'd THINK that the requirement for a config file mod would be security enough, but apparently that's not how people think.
2026-03-13 19:29:22 <KipIngram   > It's like that kind of thinking is a drug that hooks harder than crack, and they're all addicted to it.