2026-04-07 00:00:13 <Guest7919   > but again, I personally prefer mips over arm
2026-04-07 00:03:20 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, I fully agree with you, the STM32 Cortex-M3 GPIO is a shitshow, I hated it from the moment I first saw it, and Ive never used it in a device as a result. I went straight to the STM32F0xx and the STM32F4xx which have identical GPIO's and theyre flawless
2026-04-07 00:04:12 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, STM absolutely DID NOT use the Cortex-M3 GPIO of the STM32F1 in any models subsquently
2026-04-07 00:04:36 <Guest7919   > I don't remember if the f0's existed when I quit using st
2026-04-07 00:05:13 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, yeah, the F1 was their first in 2002, the F0 wasnt released until around 2006
2026-04-07 00:05:22 <Guest7919   > I know because we spent a time testing these gpios, I remember reporting to my boss some other model was the exact same shit
2026-04-07 00:05:26 <tpbsd       > and it's totally different GPIO
2026-04-07 00:05:47 <tpbsd       > but the F1 is atill around 8x faster then the F0 !
2026-04-07 00:05:53 <Guest7919   > no in 2006 we weren't using st by a long time
2026-04-07 00:05:58 <tpbsd       > from a CPU perspective
2026-04-07 00:06:13 <tpbsd       > by then the GPIO's had totally changed
2026-04-07 00:06:15 <Guest7919   > oh, so the newer is even slower? :_D
2026-04-07 00:06:42 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, I hated the F1 GPIO so much that my brain still cant work with it, so I never used it
2026-04-07 00:06:56 <tpbsd       > only the F0
2026-04-07 00:06:57 <Guest7919   > haha, and you do swd tpbsd?
2026-04-07 00:07:23 <Guest7919   > that's another thing that breaks my heart, more used to jtag
2026-04-07 00:07:32 <tpbsd       > the H7 series is 40nm nodes and up to 480MHz, it's pretty far from 'slow'
2026-04-07 00:07:47 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, Im 100% SWD
2026-04-07 00:07:52 <Guest7919   > besides, you can't chain other processors, I mean everything arm feels like a toy
2026-04-07 00:08:40 <Guest7919   > 480mhz? what package is that?
2026-04-07 00:08:43 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, only to you, to me Cortex-M is a very easy to use part, and has 100% FLOSS support in every area
2026-04-07 00:08:59 <tpbsd       > STM32H7xx
2026-04-07 00:09:01 <Guest7919   > yes, it's highly supported
2026-04-07 00:09:10 <Guest7919   > I mean the package
2026-04-07 00:09:28 <tpbsd       > ?
2026-04-07 00:09:47 <tpbsd       > I have them in 100 pin quad lead flat pack
2026-04-07 00:09:54 <Guest7919   > qfp80, dip28?
2026-04-07 00:10:03 <Guest7919   > yes, sounds like it
2026-04-07 00:10:33 <tpbsd       > but you can get them in 48 pin quad flat lead
2026-04-07 00:10:51 <tpbsd       > that model of H7 is in all ST-LINK-V3
2026-04-07 00:10:58 <Guest7919   > as I say, all this cmsis, swd, and pretty much anything related to arm I just don't like, I'm so happy I haven't been forced on to it at work
2026-04-07 00:11:05 <tpbsd       > and those things do SWD at 100 MHz
2026-04-07 00:11:15 <Guest7919   > that denotes lower process in nm
2026-04-07 00:11:49 <tpbsd       > 40nm is the bleeding edge in MCU's with onboard peripherals
2026-04-07 00:12:13 <Guest7919   > yes, and comes with marketshare
2026-04-07 00:12:15 <tpbsd       > everyone and their dog is making 5nm cpu's thesedays
2026-04-07 00:12:57 <tpbsd       > but the hightest tech is needed to make analog peripherals in 40nm
2026-04-07 00:13:17 <tpbsd       > even 40nm flash is rare
2026-04-07 00:13:30 <tpbsd       > it's all 90nm in SPI flash
2026-04-07 00:13:46 <Guest7919   > I'd say perhiperals, unless some isolated case it's pretty much the same
2026-04-07 00:14:17 <tpbsd       > hehe, try and make a resistor in 5nm ?
2026-04-07 00:14:21 <Guest7919   > once you get, say usb working, with lower process you just get more die space
2026-04-07 00:14:25 <tpbsd       > or a capacitor
2026-04-07 00:14:56 <tpbsd       > yes
2026-04-07 00:15:09 <Guest7919   > up until a limit where crosstalking becomes problematic, hence why I say some isolated case
2026-04-07 00:15:26 <tpbsd       > hence the usage of different node sizes with cpu and flash
2026-04-07 00:15:45 <tpbsd       > well, I don't have any useful knowledge in that area
2026-04-07 00:15:59 <tpbsd       > Im just a simple retired embedded tech
2026-04-07 00:16:12 <Guest7919   > I was tasked to write an swd debugger I could barely make sense of it
2026-04-07 00:16:29 <tpbsd       > yeah, it looks complex
2026-04-07 00:16:56 <tpbsd       > Im just a user of the tech
2026-04-07 00:17:19 <Guest7919   > I've always been too involved with jtag to even care, to be honest
2026-04-07 00:17:46 <tpbsd       > I've just uploaded a article on all the common SWD.USB interfaces actually
2026-04-07 00:17:52 <Guest7919   > is superior in some areas, and so poor in others
2026-04-07 00:18:14 <tpbsd       > JTAG is horribly slow compared to SWD in my experience
2026-04-07 00:18:35 <Guest7919   > yes, but let's you debug a whole system, rather than just a SoC
2026-04-07 00:19:03 <tpbsd       > it's all in a fossil repo, 'stlink.fossil'
2026-04-07 00:19:25 <tpbsd       > yeah, which I dont need at the 'flash a mcu' level
2026-04-07 00:20:04 <tpbsd       > but I tke your point, you cant beat JTAG if youre doing Testing
2026-04-07 00:20:17 <tpbsd       > of all the onboard stuff
2026-04-07 00:20:20 <Guest7919   > not at home, but many industries wouldn't even work out there if a whole machine couldn't be debugged with a single connector
2026-04-07 00:20:29 <tpbsd       > yeah
2026-04-07 00:20:39 <tpbsd       > JTAG changed the industry
2026-04-07 00:21:07 <tpbsd       > but ad a embedded developer, SWD suits me 100%
2026-04-07 00:21:29 <Guest7919   > yes, I guess for single SoC systems might be fine
2026-04-07 00:21:29 <tpbsd       > I even have a SWDCOM Forth terminal, no UART !
2026-04-07 00:21:56 <Guest7919   > I read you could nice things with it, remember the ITM a bit
2026-04-07 00:22:07 <tpbsd       > and when it's used with a ST-LINK-V3, you can get a Forth terminal that works at 100 MEGA BAUD
2026-04-07 00:22:46 <Guest7919   > I remember a project, was it the blackmagic probe? the guy even had a gdb stub that could be used remotely
2026-04-07 00:23:00 <tpbsd       > with a H7 chip of course as anything less cant compile Forth at 100 megabaud
2026-04-07 00:23:13 <tpbsd       > yeah, I have all those things
2026-04-07 00:23:36 <tpbsd       > and the remote GDB stub ia really nice, so easy to use
2026-04-07 00:23:47 <tpbsd       > just flash it to a bluepill :)
2026-04-07 00:24:35 <Guest7919   > still the wrong approach in my opninion, all you need is the source code, gdb, and something in between, nowadays OCD, I mean with jtag
2026-04-07 00:25:03 <Guest7919   > no need to waste flash or remote stubs which are counterproductive in real systems
2026-04-07 00:26:04 <tpbsd       > well I use Mecrisp-Stellaris and SWDCOM, so I get a instant 512 char buffer I can use in my program, it's as fast as GDB over swd
2026-04-07 00:26:34 <Guest7919   > so you can debug your forth in realtime then?
2026-04-07 00:26:50 <tpbsd       > yep, up to 512 characters at a time
2026-04-07 00:26:53 <Guest7919   > that's always the needed bit to take things further however is done
2026-04-07 00:27:19 <tpbsd       > it's kinda wierd tho as it's so fast
2026-04-07 00:27:54 <Guest7919   > I guess you can instruct your forth an interperse execution with logging
2026-04-07 00:28:14 <tpbsd       > what would choke and kill the user code when running a terminal on a UART, has no effect with SWDCOM
2026-04-07 00:28:17 <Guest7919   > besides having control of the chip, registers, etc. from the host
2026-04-07 00:28:48 <tpbsd       > yeah, I can print all the diags I want
2026-04-07 00:29:19 <tpbsd       > and as it's forth, it's faster than say GDB
2026-04-07 00:29:39 <tpbsd       > I mean in general with all the GDB set upand sync etc
2026-04-07 00:29:47 <Guest7919   > that's nice, is an interesting are I actually like, but life is too short and I have some things pending on an x86-64 assembler I can use with forth, well, with my own forth
2026-04-07 00:30:21 <Guest7919   > well, gdb's protocol is not that too fat or bloated, unless they changed it recenlty
2026-04-07 00:30:27 <tpbsd       > life is definitely too short!
2026-04-07 00:30:57 <tpbsd       > GDB is ok, SWDCOM with forth suits me better
2026-04-07 00:31:24 <Guest7919   > of course, you never did firmware in your carreer, only hardware?
2026-04-07 00:32:07 <tpbsd       > only hardware really, but even then a lot of software is needed
2026-04-07 00:32:24 <tpbsd       > Im definitely not a programmer, I have a different mindset
2026-04-07 00:32:42 <tpbsd       > I do program, but dont class myself as a programmer
2026-04-07 00:33:11 <Guest7919   > yes, doing firmware and seeing whatever the machine running flawlessly at last must be the closest to having a kid
2026-04-07 00:33:45 <Guest7919   > same for me with hardware hehe, I do some, like it, but it's not my area of expertise
2026-04-07 00:34:11 <tpbsd       > yeah, we think somewhat alike, but from 180 degrees
2026-04-07 00:34:18 <Guest7919   > haha
2026-04-07 00:34:32 <tpbsd       > and the two disciplines cant be joined, it's one or the other
2026-04-07 00:35:02 <Guest7919   > there are projects I've worked on both, but yes
2026-04-07 00:35:46 <Guest7919   > sometimes comunication between both is more expensive than doing it ones self
2026-04-07 00:35:47 <tpbsd       > the simple fact is that it takes a whole life to become a master at ONE discipline
2026-04-07 00:36:13 <tpbsd       > no one lives lomg enough to master two of them or more
2026-04-07 00:36:23 <Guest7919   > yes, but you get to gain certain degree overtime
2026-04-07 00:37:00 <tpbsd       > we all have a superficial knowledge of many things, but few actually ever master anything
2026-04-07 00:37:11 <tpbsd       > take cars for instance ?
2026-04-07 00:37:14 <Guest7919   > yes, it's impossible
2026-04-07 00:38:10 <Guest7919   > for me is only that I like electronics a lot, else I'd be a complete ignorant on the subject
2026-04-07 00:38:27 <tpbsd       > you drive a car for 40 years and think you know about cars, then one day while driving thru the desert your car breaks down, you pop the bonnet and realise you dont have a clue what youre seeing
2026-04-07 00:38:42 <Guest7919   > and some parts of certain projects habe required mating both at a level I could handle
2026-04-07 00:38:54 <Guest7919   > haha
2026-04-07 00:38:56 <KipIngram   > Yeah, even just 150-200 years ago you could make a pretty good run at knowing most of known science, or at least being "highly expert in many fields."  Those days are well and truly gone, though.
2026-04-07 00:39:13 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, so true
2026-04-07 00:39:53 <Guest7919   > yes, I could repair a car with carburator if tooling is available, but not even with a laptop, oscilloscope, and being a programmer that knows electronics I could touch it
2026-04-07 00:40:03 <tpbsd       > thanks to tv and the internet, we all have a superficial knowledge of many things, but few specialise
2026-04-07 00:40:31 <Guest7919   > just not my area of expertise, well, I could touch it, it's just a huge field I don't know anything about
2026-04-07 00:41:03 <Guest7919   > I mean, touch these new ones with ECU and electronics
2026-04-07 00:41:56 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, thats all well and good, until one day you boil the water in your car's radiator after a radiator hose splits. After that happens, whenever you drive that car for more than half a hour, the engine dies, whats wrong ?
2026-04-07 00:42:37 <tpbsd       > whan the car engine cools, the car starts and drives no problem
2026-04-07 00:42:42 <Guest7919   > you broke the part that holds the valves and seals the cylinders, don't know the english name for that right now
2026-04-07 00:43:04 <tpbsd       > I had this problem once and it took me a year to fix it
2026-04-07 00:43:10 <Guest7919   > if the car overheats, most likely that aluminium piece bent so badly
2026-04-07 00:43:12 <tpbsd       > nope
2026-04-07 00:43:27 <Guest7919   > then, the water sensor? let me read again
2026-04-07 00:43:38 <tpbsd       > it was the optical ignition timing sensor in the distributor
2026-04-07 00:44:01 <Guest7919   > oh, totally unrelated haha, wouldn't have found it either
2026-04-07 00:44:02 <tpbsd       > when it hit 70C one beam of the quadrature sensor failed
2026-04-07 00:44:18 <Guest7919   > I though these were capacitive
2026-04-07 00:44:55 <tpbsd       > I had to stick LCD temperature sensitive strips on the engine just to try and locate the probable source
2026-04-07 00:45:17 <tpbsd       > they vary, all modalities have been used
2026-04-07 00:45:49 <Guest7919   > using optoelectronics in a car seems like it's not going to last, though
2026-04-07 00:46:26 <Guest7919   > I mean for sensors so close to the engine and the road, debrii, etc.
2026-04-07 00:46:33 <tpbsd       > than to test my theory, I had to remove the distributor and attach a heater to it while monitoring the crank position signals, and at 70C, one died
2026-04-07 00:47:16 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, this was a sic cylinder  Holden Callais made around 1979
2026-04-07 00:47:27 <Guest7919   > ahm
2026-04-07 00:47:52 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, and youd be right, it's the worst possible place to have such a sensor
2026-04-07 00:48:05 <Guest7919   > I think so :_D
2026-04-07 00:48:27 <Guest7919   > besides capacitive ones are even cheaper to produce
2026-04-07 00:48:30 <tpbsd       > normally they use a magnetic reluctance sensor that counts teeth on the engine flusheel
2026-04-07 00:48:36 <tpbsd       > flywheel
2026-04-07 00:48:52 <Guest7919   > I call these capacitive, but yes
2026-04-07 00:49:00 <tpbsd       > thats non electronic, inductive
2026-04-07 00:49:12 <tpbsd       > and probably the most reliable
2026-04-07 00:49:13 <Guest7919   > right, inductive, sorry
2026-04-07 00:49:47 <Guest7919   > yes, until the wire breaks in some non-visible way, I have also had some headache
2026-04-07 00:50:09 <tpbsd       > so I purchased another sensor, screwed it in (easy to replace) set the timing and no more problems
2026-04-07 00:51:27 <Guest7919   > the cylinder head is the name I couldn't remember
2026-04-07 00:51:27 <tpbsd       > those magnetic reluctance sensors are in essense a bolt thats drilled, a coil of wire is wound around a bar magnet and the assembly is epoxied in using epoxy that only sets at 100C
2026-04-07 00:51:42 <tpbsd       > so theyre almost indestructable
2026-04-07 00:52:10 <Guest7919   > yes, covered with metal, the one that broke in the car I had was the crankshaft sensor
2026-04-07 00:53:27 <tpbsd       > will electric cars free us from those kind of issues or introduce us to a new hell ?
2026-04-07 00:53:42 <Guest7919   > the latter
2026-04-07 00:54:09 <tpbsd       > maybe, but this is still early days for EEV's
2026-04-07 00:54:31 <Guest7919   > not only is the physicall installation and network of sensors, can, etc, how they lock the firmware so that you have to pay a visit to the workshop
2026-04-07 00:55:04 <Guest7919   > with carburetor cars I could always find the culprit, and repair it by myself
2026-04-07 00:55:18 <tpbsd       > when the day arrives that the complete electronics is a EEV looks like a small ceramic plate with a connector at one end, things will be different
2026-04-07 00:55:54 <Guest7919   > we are far from that
2026-04-07 00:56:04 <tpbsd       > as the controller will be a homogenous ceramic part grown with all the tech internally
2026-04-07 00:56:28 <tpbsd       > it wont be repairable or dismantleable
2026-04-07 00:56:49 <tpbsd       > yeah, early deays yet
2026-04-07 00:56:53 <tpbsd       > days
2026-04-07 00:57:01 <Guest7919   > well, pretty much as it is now in some sense
2026-04-07 00:57:33 <Guest7919   > you can open it, repair to some extent but if a serious failure, good luck doing it by yourself
2026-04-07 00:57:40 <tpbsd       > I was looking at a teardown video of a BYD eev the other day
2026-04-07 00:58:03 <tpbsd       > what struck me was the incredible integration they have now
2026-04-07 00:58:16 <tpbsd       > everything was in the 'motor' unit
2026-04-07 00:58:34 <tpbsd       > all the mechanics and electronics and water cooling
2026-04-07 00:58:38 <tpbsd       > all integrated
2026-04-07 00:58:59 <Guest7919   > well, the ECU is normally there
2026-04-07 00:59:13 <tpbsd       > even the electronics for the motor drive was specially integrated
2026-04-07 00:59:36 <tpbsd       > it's staggering, the current level of integration
2026-04-07 00:59:41 <Guest7919   > the thing is even not eev's have more and more electronics in the users' compartement as days go by
2026-04-07 01:00:07 <tpbsd       > it maked eev's of just a year aho look like the first Sinclair LED digital watch
2026-04-07 01:00:24 <tpbsd       > true
2026-04-07 01:01:10 <tpbsd       > and thats a good thing, electronics has no excuse being in seperate boxes all over a car nowadays
2026-04-07 01:01:18 <Guest7919   > besides, building a car is a huge project, from it's shape, engine, chassy, interior, electronics, etc
2026-04-07 01:01:30 <tpbsd       > absolutely!
2026-04-07 01:01:50 <tpbsd       > it's so massive that most people have no comprehension of it
2026-04-07 01:02:06 <Guest7919   > I attribute that to improvements in organization, human resources, true
2026-04-07 01:02:45 <tpbsd       > if we do have a nuclear war, and centres of technology are vaporised along with the people who made them, we will be using horses again to commute
2026-04-07 01:03:15 <Guest7919   > haha, yes. Well, it's beng a nice chat, but I should go sleep
2026-04-07 01:03:26 <tpbsd       > horses and carts once we have craftsmen who can make wheels
2026-04-07 01:03:27 <Guest7919   > I'll see you next time tpbsd, thanks for the chat
2026-04-07 01:03:46 <tpbsd       > Guest7919, the pleasure has been mine, thanks for the chat!
2026-04-07 03:33:50 <KipIngram   > That did look like a good conversation.
2026-04-07 04:21:48 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, it was indeed, and Guest7919 was able to correct a STM32 misconception e had held since 2002 :)
2026-04-07 04:33:10 <KipIngram   > Oh, new knowledge is al ways a fine thing.
2026-04-07 04:33:59 <KipIngram   > I get particularly pleased when I learn something from one of my daughters.  They're all grown now, and it makes me feel like I've sent this army of knowledge-aquirers out into the world to gather it up for me.  :-)
2026-04-07 04:51:39 <tpbsd       > hahah, so true
2026-04-07 04:52:33 <tpbsd       > my second daughter is an architect, shes incredibly intelligent (takes after her mother;-)
2026-04-07 04:54:14 <tpbsd       > well now she has begun sending me a 'meat box' every month from a local farm supplier because Australian supermarkets no longer sell proper meat
2026-04-07 04:54:52 <tpbsd       > shes proof that 'having kids is good' :)
2026-04-07 10:29:20 <veltas      > For easter sunday my wife cooked a nice big leg of lamb, really nice roast dinner
2026-04-07 10:29:40 <veltas      > With some mint sauce, and sticky toffee pudding after
2026-04-07 10:29:58 <tpbsd       > yum!
2026-04-07 10:30:01 <veltas      > And then we spent some of the nice weather going out and getting ice cream with the kids, playing in the garden with the pool
2026-04-07 10:30:15 <veltas      > So I'm enjoying the primordial stage of kids right now
2026-04-07 10:30:24 <tpbsd       > magic days, memories are made of such days :)
2026-04-07 10:30:46 <veltas      > The 'pool' is a 4ft thing but was still fun
2026-04-07 10:31:00 <veltas      > 4ft plastic ring basically
2026-04-07 10:31:22 <tpbsd       > all my sweet lil children grew up into adults, but now I'm impressed with some of my grandchildren
2026-04-07 10:31:28 <veltas      > But I sat in it with my boy and he enjoyed playing with a bucket
2026-04-07 10:31:39 <veltas      > I hope to have grandkids too one day
2026-04-07 10:32:09 <tpbsd       > one is turning 5 soon, and he speaks and reads like an adult
2026-04-07 10:32:38 <tpbsd       > and his 4 year old brother isnt far behind him
2026-04-07 10:33:20 <tpbsd       > I'll be sending him an electronics kit for his sixth birthday
2026-04-07 10:33:36 <veltas      > Very nice
2026-04-07 10:33:59 <veltas      > I had one of those when I was young and I didn't understand anything at all, it was a "build your own transistor radio" type kit with a breadboard etc
2026-04-07 10:34:28 <veltas      > There was no explanation inside and I didn't really have the resources or any interest adults to explain it so was a bit useless
2026-04-07 10:34:39 <veltas      > I think I managed to get it working at least
2026-04-07 10:34:57 <veltas      > But I didn't really learn anything
2026-04-07 10:35:26 <veltas      > It took ages
2026-04-07 10:35:47 <veltas      > The hardest bit was wrapping the copper round the core
2026-04-07 10:35:56 <tpbsd       > cool!
2026-04-07 10:36:15 <tpbsd       > pre Internet and pre AI life was hard!
2026-04-07 10:36:21 <veltas      > Yeah
2026-04-07 10:36:41 <veltas      > But if someone at least explains it a bit to the child, and they're actually interested, then it would probably be a better experience
2026-04-07 10:36:50 <veltas      > I think electronics kits are probably better now anyway
2026-04-07 10:38:25 <veltas      > There is so much cheap stuff available too so if a kid wants to keep playing with different components, then there's not really much of a limit besides room/clutter
2026-04-07 10:40:13 <tpbsd       > I'm about to paste the link for the kit Im getting him
2026-04-07 10:40:37 <tpbsd       > https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B00P871NOW/?coliid=IJCPVNMVPOSEP&colid=R65D9YGY4J92&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
2026-04-07 10:40:44 <tpbsd       > or maybe this one
2026-04-07 10:41:19 <tpbsd       > https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B08GL2XXXG/?coliid=I1YPIM1CV6WK23&colid=R65D9YGY4J92&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it
2026-04-07 10:42:51 <tpbsd       > I purchased one of these for another 6 year old gifted child about 10 years ago and withing a week or so he had built all the circuits
2026-04-07 10:43:08 <tpbsd       > he loved it, but than they come with excellent doc
2026-04-07 10:44:35 <tpbsd       > as I have a year to organise it, I'm also thinking of designing a kit for him myself as I have all the gear I need
2026-04-07 10:44:48 <tpbsd       > and these kits are terribly expensive now
2026-04-07 10:45:53 <tpbsd       > hehe, I should make my own and include a Forth computer module that can connect to a tablet or smartphone
2026-04-07 10:46:29 <tpbsd       > hmm, maybe I should start making the kits and selling them, along with 'addons' !
2026-04-07 10:47:30 <tpbsd       > have a AI make the instructions for each project
2026-04-07 10:47:49 <tpbsd       > hmm, Im feeling enthuisastic!
2026-04-07 10:47:52 <veltas      > That sounds very good
2026-04-07 10:48:00 <veltas      > the kits
2026-04-07 10:48:32 <tpbsd       > yeah, imagine a Forth controller on a STM32 chip running a simple menu ?
2026-04-07 10:49:26 <tpbsd       > thats so easy to do, I did that with my 'Bluepill Diagnostics' program and somewhere over 10,000 have been downloaded now
2026-04-07 10:49:50 <tpbsd       > I didnt receive a single user complaint
2026-04-07 10:51:02 <tpbsd       > so it would include computer interaction in the kit for gifted kids to break the closed loop menu and learn Forth
2026-04-07 10:51:30 <tpbsd       > this would be way better than the Amazon electronics kit
2026-04-07 10:52:04 <tpbsd       > all I have to do is make up about a dozen different PCB's for the kit
2026-04-07 10:53:10 <tpbsd       > probably use springs like my first kit used when I was a kid, springs and cat 5e wires work great for interconnects
2026-04-07 10:53:51 <tpbsd       > just have to rivet the spring to the pcb as solder will be useless
2026-04-07 10:55:59 <tpbsd       > Ive already started making experimental coper rivets from recycled transformer copper wire : https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/_images/rivet1-edge-view.jpg
2026-04-07 10:56:08 <tpbsd       > copper
2026-04-07 11:06:12 <veltas      > Interesting
2026-04-07 13:30:27 <veltas      > Are there any hackaday authors in here?
2026-04-07 13:30:37 <veltas      > There seems to be more Forth content on there now
2026-04-07 13:31:29 <tpbsd       > Ive had a few articles published by hackaday over the years
2026-04-07 13:32:10 <tpbsd       > but they havent taken any of my Forth articles, I get the feeling that Forth is just not popular enough for them
2026-04-07 13:33:28 <tpbsd       > I think hackaday is on the decline also, their content over the last year has been pretty poor imho
2026-04-07 13:37:36 <veltas      > Any other good websites to find similar content?
2026-04-07 13:37:48 <veltas      > Seems like a lot of show-and-tell is on YouTube now
2026-04-07 13:39:26 <tpbsd       > I think that https://www.reddit.com/r/Forth/ is much better for content, but it's pretty slow news wise
2026-04-07 13:40:36 <tpbsd       > I also like to scan these posts for interesting comments: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/
2026-04-07 13:46:00 <tpbsd       > the only Forth related article I was able to get Hackaday to publish was my 'blue pill diagnostic' in 2021, where Maya Posch said "Another interesting feature of Blue Pill Diagnostics is using Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth as its foundation, which allows for easy access to a Forth shell via this firmware as well, not unlike MicroPython and Lua, only in a fraction of the Flash required by those. We have previously written about using Mecrisp-Stellaris in your
2026-04-07 13:46:01 <tpbsd       > projects."
2026-04-07 13:47:16 <tpbsd       > sadly she didnt mention that Forth is the only OS that could run on a bluepill given it's 64KB flash size
2026-04-07 13:48:34 <tpbsd       > https://hackaday.com/blog/?s=test+your+bluepill
2026-04-07 13:48:59 <veltas      > lol
2026-04-07 13:49:04 <tpbsd       > the article did get 40 comments, which isnt bad
2026-04-07 13:49:22 <veltas      > This is just how all journalists are
2026-04-07 13:49:50 <tpbsd       > yeah, plus hackaday is a commercial business who make money advertising etc
2026-04-07 13:50:12 <veltas      > It's not a *journal*, despite the title 'journalist', so they won't give you the article for technical review first
2026-04-07 13:50:31 <tpbsd       > my bluepill diags has been downloaded over 10,000 times since that article
2026-04-07 13:50:37 <veltas      > They will just do internal editing and publish and walk away
2026-04-07 13:50:50 <tpbsd       > yeah
2026-04-07 13:51:32 <veltas      > Almost every article about me in the paper has contained mistakes
2026-04-07 13:52:24 <veltas      > Usually just spelling mistakes because they insist on using shorthand
2026-04-07 13:52:30 <tpbsd       > heh, I worked for Reuters for 3 years amd interacted with a lot of journalists in that time
2026-04-07 13:52:41 <veltas      > Really?  What did you do there?
2026-04-07 13:52:49 <tpbsd       > some were awesome, some utterly mad
2026-04-07 13:53:00 <tpbsd       > senior electronics tech
2026-04-07 13:54:06 <tpbsd       > it was a fun job, they sent me to Hong Kong for 3 weeks to do a DEC VAX course in the 80's
2026-04-07 13:54:11 <veltas      > Was that doing actual tech for them or writing/reviewing articles?
2026-04-07 13:54:20 <veltas      > Nice
2026-04-07 13:54:36 <tpbsd       > actual tech
2026-04-07 13:54:44 <veltas      > Well good you got that as we know now that VAX is the future and won the computer wars :P
2026-04-07 13:54:48 <tpbsd       > I'm electronics only
2026-04-07 13:55:16 <veltas      > Was the course actually good or a waste of money?
2026-04-07 13:55:46 <tpbsd       > hehe, it was the small barfridge sized embedded VAX used by stockbrokers
2026-04-07 13:56:07 <veltas      > I'm convinced corporate training courses tend to be a bit of a money sink, especially for techy stuff
2026-04-07 13:56:21 <tpbsd       > it was very good, and held at the Hong Kong Cable and Wireless building
2026-04-07 13:57:09 <veltas      > I actually joined a company for a really short period of time and they insisted I did, in order, a C++ training course; which I pushed back on hard because I already know C++ and am probably capable of googling the rare gaps in practical knowledge
2026-04-07 13:57:56 <veltas      > Finally they convinced me to go to a C sharp course, which they then got annoyed that I didn't want to stay in a hotel for... I insisted I'd get the train as at the time my wife didn't like staying on her own
2026-04-07 13:57:56 <tpbsd       > I have done a lot of tech training courses over the years, and they have all been a lot of fun
2026-04-07 13:58:26 <veltas      > They said I shouldn't get up so early... but for me getting a train at like 6am isn't a big deal
2026-04-07 13:59:01 <tpbsd       > yeah, by 6 am my first 2 hours of the day have already gone!
2026-04-07 13:59:10 <veltas      > The writing was on the wall though, the job was not really anything like how it was described in the interview and my old company were willing to get me back with a promotion so the choice was clear
2026-04-07 13:59:56 <tpbsd       > once I noticed that interviews are all bs I started having fun
2026-04-07 14:00:04 <veltas      > There was just a crazy amount of dysfunction in the short time I was there, "the grass is greener on the other side" indeed!
2026-04-07 14:00:31 <veltas      > They really loved wasting money, that's when you know it's a little bit *too* corporate
2026-04-07 14:00:35 <tpbsd       > the hiring companies all lie their asses off and make stuff up
2026-04-07 14:01:03 <veltas      > I've heard stories about expensive contractors turning up to jobs and not having any actual way to do any work for months, which they're billed for
2026-04-07 14:01:17 <tpbsd       > I love asking them 'why did the guy that position replaces leave?' just to watch them squirm
2026-04-07 14:01:17 <veltas      > And then when the bill is much larger they get grumpy and say "this is more than you quoted"
2026-04-07 14:01:57 <veltas      > Corporations are a bit hellish but the one I work for isn't that bad, at least
2026-04-07 14:02:04 <veltas      > Or at least they can follow the money better than that!
2026-04-07 14:02:11 <tpbsd       > I worked on the Collins Class submarines here in Australia over about a year as a subcontractor, and the waste there is unbelievable
2026-04-07 14:03:27 <tpbsd       > the govt buys so many $1000 blocks of so many hours, and then i'd go and  stand in a long queue waiting to get into the submarine to work while some dude checked everyone off
2026-04-07 14:03:47 <veltas      > Exactly
2026-04-07 14:03:54 <tpbsd       > utter waste of time, probably spent waiting for 4 hrs and working for 2
2026-04-07 14:03:59 <veltas      > Of course the other end of that spectrum is companies that don't know when they actually need to *spend* money
2026-04-07 14:04:16 <tpbsd       > yeah, it's all a big comedy
2026-04-07 14:04:53 <veltas      > Like accountants refusing to spend for an interviewee's cab but they're going to spend who knows how many hundreds of thousands on their salary, so what the hell is cab fare???
2026-04-07 14:05:06 <tpbsd       > yeah, exactly
2026-04-07 14:05:31 <tpbsd       > at reuters I had a fat cabcharge book and went everywhere by can
2026-04-07 14:05:36 <tpbsd       > cab
2026-04-07 14:05:44 <tpbsd       > they didnt have vehicled
2026-04-07 14:06:11 <tpbsd       > when I ran out I just got another fat cabcharge book
2026-04-07 14:06:39 <tpbsd       > the tech was hard and enormous pressure but the perks were great
2026-04-07 14:07:11 <veltas      > Definitely an impressive place to have worked
2026-04-07 14:07:16 <tpbsd       > when a comms link goes down and a stock exchange is off the air, the money lost is zillions per minute
2026-04-07 14:08:36 <tpbsd       > I remember when one of the office girls left us and got a job with a broker, she earned like $300 that week and made about $700 in insider trading tips from brokers
2026-04-07 14:09:07 <tpbsd       > talk about megabuks corruption
2026-04-07 14:10:29 <tpbsd       > it was definitely one of my best jobs perks wise
2026-04-07 14:13:55 <veltas      > Which city was this in?
2026-04-07 14:14:40 <tpbsd       > I dont reveal specifics on irc :)
2026-04-07 14:15:19 <veltas      > Of course
2026-04-07 14:16:03 <tpbsd       > thesedays one has no idea what personal details AI reaperbots may be collecting
2026-04-07 14:16:31 <tpbsd       > all for a big identitity steal
2026-04-07 14:43:09 <KipIngram   > I question whether it even makes sense to talk about a stock exchange "making money."  All it really does is just shift money around.  I know individuals profit from it, it's something of a shell game really.  The economic beneift is really created by the activities of the underlying companies.
2026-04-07 14:43:20 <KipIngram   > The creation of the actual STUFF.
2026-04-07 14:43:48 <KipIngram   > You can argue that the stock market optimizes the deployment of capital, and that could be said to assist in that wealth creation.
2026-04-07 14:44:13 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, so true, it's all a massive game played by the masters of deceit
2026-04-07 14:44:47 <KipIngram   > I think it all moves fo fast these days that no normal people like us really make money in the market by anything other than luck.
2026-04-07 14:45:06 <veltas      > Could we be a free society without allowing the stock market to exist?
2026-04-07 14:45:16 <KipIngram   > With that many people mucking about in it, some of them are going to win, and then they tout themselves as "market experts."
2026-04-07 14:46:08 <tpbsd       > our office would occasionally get anonymous notes shoved under the door "xyz makes energy breakthru, announcement tomorrow' for example, obviously hoping  one of our journalists would print the fake news ...
2026-04-07 14:46:45 <KipIngram   > I own some stocks, but I've held all of them for many years - I don't try to do any form of "playing the market."  I just invest in companies that I think are solid.  Or companies that I decide to just take a chance on with a relatively small amount of money.
2026-04-07 14:46:47 <tpbsd       > people would often hit me for tips, but I was clueless just being a tech
2026-04-07 14:47:10 <veltas      > I will say if you can't explain why a share is worth the specific price (or more) than you paid for it, then maybe you need to not be buying shares
2026-04-07 14:47:47 <tpbsd       > Ive come to the conclusion the entire stock market is controlled by stock brokers, all playing the great game
2026-04-07 14:48:07 <KipIngram   > I think that one of our few remaining "big revolutions" is genetic tech, so I took a small portion of my cash and spread it out over a group of genetics startups.  I'll probably get nothing out of that - it was a high risk play hoping that one of the group might pop someday.
2026-04-07 14:48:25 <veltas      > I saw someone who seems to give investment advice on YouTube complaining the FTSE 100 was terrible because the market cap barely goes up, even though FTSE 100 actually pays a huge amount of dividends
2026-04-07 14:48:30 <KipIngram   > But most of my stuff is in more traditional, "blue chip ish" companies.
2026-04-07 14:48:45 <veltas      > So they're giving investment advice and they don't understand literally the most simple way that shares are worth anything at all
2026-04-07 14:49:00 <veltas      > Like if a share doesn't pay dividends, then it's much harder to justify its value
2026-04-07 14:49:12 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  There's tons of noise out there, just like on every other topic.
2026-04-07 14:49:18 <veltas      > But people are more interested in buying shares with no dividends if it gets more and more expensive
2026-04-07 14:49:38 <KipIngram   > I love dividends.
2026-04-07 14:50:23 <veltas      > They aren't aware that, for instance, the only reason why big tech companies are worth so much (and may be overvalued still) is because they are assumed to pay dividends eventually, but they're currently in an exponential growth / capturing phase
2026-04-07 14:51:31 <veltas      > Well that's sort of true, but it's closer to truth than this youtuber's understanding wwas
2026-04-07 14:53:05 <veltas      > KipIngram: Not financial advice but Coca Cola for the win :P
2026-04-07 14:53:13 <KipIngram   > I think it's the "traditional truth."  Reinvest profits while you can use them well to grow, and when that runs out of steam start throwing them off to your owners.
2026-04-07 14:53:38 <veltas      > Or else why buy a share of a company at all
2026-04-07 14:53:39 <KipIngram   > It's really no different from what a sole proprietor would do - he'd also roll profits back into the company as long it made sense to do so.
2026-04-07 14:53:49 <veltas      > Exactly
2026-04-07 14:53:53 <KipIngram   > Raising the number of owners and how the decision is made doesn't really change anything.
2026-04-07 14:54:40 <KipIngram   > A long history of solid dividends is a major indicator of a sound, well-run company.
2026-04-07 14:54:49 <veltas      > Like Coca Cola
2026-04-07 14:55:03 <KipIngram   > Yeah - Buffett loved Coca Cola.
2026-04-07 14:55:40 <KipIngram   > And of course you do have to watch out for technology changes - a sudden change can come along and take an established company's legs out from under it.
2026-04-07 14:55:52 <KipIngram   > Like the digital camera revolution did to Kodak.
2026-04-07 14:56:13 <KipIngram   > Kodak was one of the most solid companies going, but then the world just changed almost overnight.
2026-04-07 14:56:13 <veltas      > Coca Cola is maybe one of the worst sodas but people can't stop buying it
2026-04-07 14:56:23 <veltas      > That's one of the many reasons I like Coca Cola shares
2026-04-07 14:56:27 <KipIngram   > It's been incredibly well-marketed.
2026-04-07 14:57:00 <veltas      > I think also people just don't like switching brands
2026-04-07 14:57:11 <KipIngram   > There's that too - habit.
2026-04-07 14:57:12 <veltas      > Or changing
2026-04-07 14:57:24 <veltas      > It's just not really changed much in over a hundred years
2026-04-07 14:57:40 <veltas      > Although I guess in the US you've got that awful corn syrup
2026-04-07 14:58:01 <veltas      > But you can still get mexican coca cola
2026-04-07 14:58:13 <veltas      > Just make sure you don't google or fedex "mexican coke" :P
2026-04-07 14:58:41 <KipIngram   > lmao
2026-04-07 14:59:01 <KipIngram   > Yeah, we put corn syrup in everything.  :-(
2026-04-07 14:59:11 <KipIngram   > We've got a lot of corn.  :-)
2026-04-07 14:59:37 <tpbsd       > high fructose corn syrup
2026-04-07 14:59:43 <veltas      > Coca Cola are so old and established they literally use the plant that cocaine comes from when nobody else is really allowed to use it apart from for medical/research purposes
2026-04-07 14:59:46 <tpbsd       > cheaper than sugar
2026-04-07 14:59:52 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  Nasty stuff.
2026-04-07 15:00:03 <veltas      > It's in the name, the coca leaf
2026-04-07 15:00:43 <iv4nshm4k0v > I'm pretty certain Coca Cola was "coca" in name only for a while now.
2026-04-07 15:01:19 <veltas      > They actually use coca leaves that have been processed to remove basically all the cocaine
2026-04-07 15:01:39 <veltas      > The amount of cocaine left for like 100+ years has been trace of a trace, so essentially none left
2026-04-07 15:01:51 <veltas      > But the coca leaf is part of the flavour
2026-04-07 15:03:16 <veltas      > I noticed at some point that *parsnip* smells an awful lot like Cola, actually
2026-04-07 15:03:22 <veltas      > If freshly cut
2026-04-07 15:03:39 <veltas      > I wonder if it has some of the aromatics from cola....
2026-04-07 15:08:12 <iv4nshm4k0v > M-m.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#Coca_leaf .
2026-04-07 15:14:00 <iv4nshm4k0v > The way I read it, they buy the leaves left over from the cocaine extraction process.
2026-04-07 15:16:12 <veltas      > I think you're right
2026-04-07 15:16:30 <veltas      > But they do still use coca leaves for flavouring, I doubt anyone else is doing that (or would want to)
2026-04-07 15:17:02 <veltas      > The company they buy it from is the only company that's allowed to do so in the US, though
2026-04-07 15:17:56 <iv4nshm4k0v > Well, the people who stole the formula and offered to sell it to Pepsi certainly thought that Pepsi, once they have the formula, would want to buy the leaves for it.
2026-04-07 15:20:04 <iv4nshm4k0v > (FWIW, my long-time preferences for drinks are green tea, carbonated mineral water, and pomegranate juice.  Chicory and the so-called "grain coffee" are recent additions to the list, as tea started to interfere with my sleep schedule.  I don't recall drinking Coca-Cola this century.)
2026-04-07 15:22:23 <veltas      > I usually drink coffee but tea gives me the least regrets
2026-04-07 15:22:34 <veltas      > Mostly black tea as I'm English
2026-04-07 15:23:00 <veltas      > I enjoy coca cola occasionally but it's not something that anyone should drink regularly
2026-04-07 15:23:12 <veltas      > However as a shareholder...... drink up!
2026-04-07 15:25:06 <KipIngram   > :-)
2026-04-07 15:25:44 <KipIngram   > I prefer clear sodas (Sprite, 7-up, etc.), but Coca Cola owns a bunch of things.  I think Sprite is the Coca Cola brand and 7-up is the Pepsi brand?
2026-04-07 15:26:37 <KipIngram   > I only drink zero calorie sodas.
2026-04-07 15:27:04 <KipIngram   > And even then not much - usually as a cocktail mixer.
2026-04-07 15:28:17 <KipIngram   > My usual drink of choice at home is a shot of vodka, a shot of Rose's Sweetened Lime juice, and a can of diet Sprite or 7-up.  I usually get the store brand soda because it's a lot cheaper.
2026-04-07 15:28:45 <KipIngram   > And bottom shelf vodka - the other stuff masks the taste anyway, so expensive vodka would be a waste in such a drink.
2026-04-07 15:30:04 <iv4nshm4k0v > I've been drinking black tea until recently, but it seems to act as a migraine trigger for me.  Might have a bit of tyramine in it, I suppose, as is usual for all things fermented.
2026-04-07 15:30:27 <KipIngram   > I guess it's more like a double shot of vodka - I use a quarter cup each of the vodka and the lime juice, then a can of soda.  Almost always I only have one, though.
2026-04-07 15:30:54 <KipIngram   > I rarely drink tea, but I'm thoroughly addicted to coffee.
2026-04-07 15:30:54 <veltas      > That's interesting iv4nshm4k0v I'll have to watch out for that, I don't want to get a hangover
2026-04-07 15:31:33 <KipIngram   > Coffee is an integral part of getting the engine cranked each morning.
2026-04-07 15:33:00 <KipIngram   > Which is just now happening this morning - I'm usually up earlier, but today I slept until about an hour ago.
2026-04-07 15:33:59 <KipIngram   > I went through a phase the last few months where my sleep cycle was terrible, but the last week or two I've been sleeping much more solidly.
2026-04-07 15:34:14 <veltas      > Just spotted some C code that wrote "-gt 0" in a comment, near "> 0" in code, as if somehow that was clearer!
2026-04-07 15:34:26 <KipIngram   > :-)
2026-04-07 15:34:31 <veltas      > Bourne shell lives rent free in my head obviously
2026-04-07 15:34:46 <KipIngram   > Gottal love comments like "increment x" for x++, etc.
2026-04-07 15:34:52 <veltas      > Ugh
2026-04-07 15:35:15 <KipIngram   > Exactly.
2026-04-07 15:35:35 <veltas      > Oh damn just realised the comments are all wrong too
2026-04-07 15:35:55 <veltas      > It's checking the negation so says "x < 0" but should say "x <= 0"
2026-04-07 15:36:14 <veltas      > Because !(x>0) is x<=0
2026-04-07 15:36:23 <KipIngram   > Yep.
2026-04-07 15:36:28 <veltas      > Nice job
2026-04-07 15:36:53 <veltas      > Classic "code smell", something I don't like the smell of that leads me to an actual issue
2026-04-07 15:37:01 <KipIngram   > General education is pretty poor these days.
2026-04-07 15:37:42 <KipIngram   > I swear, stuff I read makes me think that people at least had some appreciation for the value of education in past centuries, but we don't seem to have that today by and large.
2026-04-07 15:37:50 <veltas      > I think this was written by Sun so it was poor in the dotcom era too
2026-04-07 15:38:00 <KipIngram   > If anything there seems to be disdain for it.
2026-04-07 15:38:20 <KipIngram   > Like people who study hard are "losers" or something.
2026-04-07 15:39:44 <KipIngram   > I don't know that it was REALLY any better in the past - it may just be that widespread opinion is more accessible to us today than it used to be.
2026-04-07 15:39:59 <KipIngram   > Since everyone is a publisher now.
2026-04-07 15:40:19 <iv4nshm4k0v > In a way, they often are.  A person spends years to get a diploma, then has to work as a table waiter because no job offers around have anything to do with that diploma.
2026-04-07 15:40:40 <veltas      > Among grads the standards have gone way UP
2026-04-07 15:40:49 <KipIngram   > Yeah, there are plenty of things you can get a diploma for that are of little use.
2026-04-07 15:41:00 <veltas      > Based on our interns, and how competitive it is to get any job at all now
2026-04-07 15:41:04 <veltas      > Unless you come from a top uni
2026-04-07 15:41:25 <KipIngram   > And it's also often the case that a field becomes popular for some reason and then gets over-flooded.
2026-04-07 15:41:46 <iv4nshm4k0v > Too much competition demotivates, too.
2026-04-07 15:42:22 <KipIngram   > Well, yes - if there's so much competition that the compensation has gotten driven into the dust, that would be demotivtating.
2026-04-07 15:43:33 <iv4nshm4k0v > Promise that 95% of the class will get good jobs, and most students would be slacking.  Promise that only the top 5% of the class will get them, and students, too, would be slacking.  At a guess, the optimum would be somewhere in the 30% .. 70% range.
2026-04-07 15:43:34 <veltas      > I think just generally competition can demotivate
2026-04-07 15:43:46 <KipIngram   > And the big corporations actively try to make their employees as expendable / replaceable as possible.  They hate having people that they depend on individually.
2026-04-07 15:43:56 <veltas      > I didn't like competition when I was a student
2026-04-07 15:44:09 <KipIngram   > I never regarded school as a competition at all.
2026-04-07 15:44:24 <KipIngram   > I just viewed it as where I was to learn, so I tried to learn as much as I could.
2026-04-07 15:44:49 <veltas      > People with that mindset are the most blindsided by the job market today
2026-04-07 15:44:54 <veltas      > Unfortunately
2026-04-07 15:44:58 <KipIngram   > I was generally good in school, though, so it may just be that I never HAD to worry.
2026-04-07 15:45:07 <veltas      > It's my mindset too, I was just very competent
2026-04-07 15:45:19 <veltas      > And today I don't think I would have gotten a job, or at least I would have found it harder
2026-04-07 15:45:22 <KipIngram   > Right - exactly.  I knew I'd do "well enough."
2026-04-07 15:47:20 <veltas      > Am I the only one who hates getopt()?
2026-04-07 15:47:43 <KipIngram   > I never use it, so I don't have an emotional response.
2026-04-07 15:48:11 <KipIngram   > It feels like one of those things that could become overly complicated, though.
2026-04-07 15:48:38 <KipIngram   > When I write a script, I just manually go after the parameters that I know will be there for that particular script.
2026-04-07 15:48:52 <veltas      > Read "man 3 getopt" if you want and you may form an opinion
2026-04-07 15:49:00 <KipIngram   > :-)
2026-04-07 15:49:05 <veltas      > But will you form the right opinion? :P
2026-04-07 15:49:22 <KipIngram   > It sounds to me like you're confirming my above opinion.
2026-04-07 15:49:50 <KipIngram   > Sounds like a sledgehammer, when usually a geologist's hammer suffices.
2026-04-07 16:11:50 <KipIngram   > Ugh.  I have a love/hate relationship with LaTeX.  I love it for what you can do with it (which is pretty much anything at all you want), but it all feels so damn arbitrary.  Just like this huge container of thrown together widgets.  No way to learn a few basic ideas and then have the rest "follow from that."
2026-04-07 16:21:13 <veltas      > I've said before that would be a cool thing to do in Forth
2026-04-07 16:21:20 <veltas      > Typesetting and/or macro packages
2026-04-07 16:22:12 <veltas      > But the ability to "do anything" with a software package or library usually means you need to sell your soul down the stack somewhere
2026-04-07 16:25:24 <Riviera     > so, you mean postscript?
2026-04-07 16:25:36 <Riviera     > kidding, kidding, but am i :)
2026-04-07 16:25:47 <iv4nshm4k0v > Postscript has only superficial similarity to Forth.
2026-04-07 16:30:29 <iv4nshm4k0v > I've had little trouble with LaTeX myself, but then again, that was some two decades ago (when it was much smaller), and I /did/ read The TeXbook.  I wouldn't mind using a "minimalist" version of that, but apparently Texlive - which is where most of TeX/LaTeX development is done these days - has little, if any, support for that.  So I'm kinda-sorta exploring Groff.
2026-04-07 16:30:30 <iv4nshm4k0v > My "HP LaserJet 1020" is a raster-only printer - with no PostScript support in its microcode - so the thing I find missing in Groff is some sort of a "raster" driver.  Sure, I can do the "Groff code -> groff_out(5) data -> PostScript code -> .pbm data" dance, but I'd rather avoid that.
2026-04-07 16:33:10 <iv4nshm4k0v > So far, I wrote a crude "groff_out(5) -> raster" converter prototype; this is what it gives for letter.mom (of the -mom example files that come with Groff): http://users.am-1.org/~ivan/misc-2026/sfn.jwuV6E_kya-bDmZbN_G0mpjQuSMXlg9qt5ehp1Bzigk.png .  The kerning is off at places, I suspect because I use TeXgyre fonts rather than the version of Times Roman Groff was configured to use.
2026-04-07 16:57:34 <veltas      > Definitely tell us about groff, or me anyway, I'm interested in that stuff
2026-04-07 16:57:50 <veltas      > I've done a little with groff myself and it's hard to find good info
2026-04-07 16:57:57 <veltas      > I wonder if it's easier with LLMs now
2026-04-07 17:05:45 <iv4nshm4k0v > Depending on what you're after, the documentation for the Mom package might be a good starting point.  It doesn't tell much about the underlying engine, but it still gives a way to actually start typesetting documents with Groff.  Might also hint at what is, or is not, possible with Groff.
2026-04-07 17:26:11 <KipIngram   > veltas: Yeah, I've often thought about trying to put my own wrapper around LaTeX or something like it, to give myself an interface that feels more intuitive to me.  What tends to happen using it direct is that I only need it occasionally, and I've always forgotten most of whatever I figured out the previous time.
2026-04-07 17:26:26 <KipIngram   > I feel like if I had something I'd planned myself it would be easier to remember.
2026-04-07 17:27:05 <KipIngram   > And yes - eventually I'll want to be doing it from Forth, instead of having to step outside my "happy place."
2026-04-07 17:30:02 <iv4nshm4k0v > Speaking of PostScript: http://chez.com/emarsden/downloads/mandel.ps .  Though perhaps not as impressive (PostScript was /meant/ to be used as a graphics description language, after all) as that one example in the "3.5. Outlandish Recursive Query Examples" section of the Sqlite documentation.
2026-04-07 17:50:56 <iv4nshm4k0v > I have two distinct use cases: one is when I want to write a document to publish (or at least give to someone), and another is when I want to print something for my own use.
2026-04-07 17:50:57 <iv4nshm4k0v > In the first case, I just use (X)HTML + CSS, like http://am-1.org/~ivan/qinp-2024/112.l-system.en.xhtml : it's small and quick to render on the now-ubiquitous pocket computers, and if you're so inclined, you can download, edit, and send me patches.  In the second case, not being much of a fan of the 3 "real" browsers, I'd rather use something like Groff (or mini-LaTeX, if such thing existed.)
2026-04-07 20:03:02 <KipIngram   > I quite like the idea of a protocol for delivering renderable content by network.  I think a lot of our problems came in when we pushed that into the realm of "active content," where the data bundle thtat got delivered started to become "executable" in some fashion.  I think that was the biggest step that let the security cat out of the bag.  Sure, they tried to do it in a way that was secure, but
2026-04-07 20:03:04 <KipIngram   > apparently we can't ever get that kind of thing totally right.
2026-04-07 20:04:05 <KipIngram   > So HTML, great, even CSS, okay - but I think Javascript and its kin were missteps.
2026-04-07 20:05:48 <KipIngram   > I don't really object to the IDEA that people might want to pull such things over to their computer and execute them, but I think a sharper boundary should have been drawn, so that you darn well explicitly KNEW IT when you were taking that step.  The "active content" has sort of just cancerously spread out into everything, to the point where you can't really use a browser in a fully effective way
2026-04-07 20:05:50 <KipIngram   > without it.
2026-04-07 20:06:48 <KipIngram   > Put "can't really avoid it" (if you want to browse at all) together with "can't keep it secure," and you wind up in a bad place.