2026-04-08 04:25:20 <tpbsd       > GA144 Finding Parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temS5-ZqT3U
2026-04-08 04:30:03 <tpbsd       > veltas, yes, youre the only one who hates 'getopt'. I used it in this project that Hackaday published in November 2022 https://hackaday.com/blog/?s=svd2db
2026-04-08 04:42:26 <iv4nshm4k0v > KipIngram: To me, those are separate concepts: webpages only contain static data, while webapps also have executable code to them.  Though I'm willing to consider something that has associated JavaScript, but still can be read without executing it, to be a webpage and not a webapp.
2026-04-08 05:07:43 <tpbsd       > in the above video, he says that smt assy in the USA is no longer viable after getting a quote to assemble 6 small boards of $3500 USD and he supplies everything !
2026-04-08 07:15:34 <tpbsd       > veltas, see  https://www.youtube.com/@siliconvalleyforthinterest1736/videos  for more interesting Forth articles
2026-04-08 09:39:47 <veltas      > tpbsd: I wonder how much of this is to do with the international exchange rates
2026-04-08 09:40:16 <tpbsd       > veltas, Ive no idea
2026-04-08 09:40:29 <veltas      > For instance what is the Chinese salary equivalent of $3500, maybe it costs that much inside China to get SMT assy
2026-04-08 09:40:53 <tpbsd       > veltas, sounds like the USA fast prototyping industry isnt operational anymore ?
2026-04-08 09:41:03 <veltas      > Both are probably true
2026-04-08 09:41:32 <veltas      > But why is that industry gone?  Maybe because the dollar is too expensive
2026-04-08 09:42:04 <tpbsd       > veltas, but a tech with a microscope could assemble those 6 pcbs in a day as the designer is supplying the pcbs and the components
2026-04-08 09:42:48 <tpbsd       > I think that the expertise is gone now, no one wants to do it so they just quoted a rediculous price ?
2026-04-08 09:43:07 <veltas      > I think the exchange rate is related to why it's gone
2026-04-08 09:43:40 <veltas      > You've got corrupt unfree countries like China with poor currency that can only really be trusted to deliver hard goods, and aren't used for services
2026-04-08 09:43:44 <tpbsd       > but it's inside the USA for all the parts and labour, it has no external factors ?
2026-04-08 09:44:30 <tpbsd       > only the boards were made in china (I think) and probably for $50 the lot
2026-04-08 09:44:44 <veltas      > I guess it means if you like doing the assembly you need to move to China
2026-04-08 09:44:57 <tpbsd       > probably less
2026-04-08 09:45:07 <veltas      > And if you like money you need to work in services, in the US
2026-04-08 09:45:33 <tpbsd       > they look pretty simple, a microscope, tweezers and a toaster oven and theyre done ?
2026-04-08 09:45:46 <veltas      > Maybe it's a good business opportunity
2026-04-08 09:46:12 <veltas      > You can undercut the competition
2026-04-08 09:46:39 <tpbsd       > it such a small order, any tech could easily do it
2026-04-08 09:46:47 <tpbsd       > I could easily do it
2026-04-08 09:46:55 <tpbsd       > even at 71 years old
2026-04-08 09:47:22 <veltas      > But consider this, even if you undercut the locals, you still won't undercut china
2026-04-08 09:47:23 <tpbsd       > $3500 is just insanity
2026-04-08 09:47:31 <veltas      > So you'll only get business that *needs* to be done locally
2026-04-08 09:47:37 <veltas      > Like my industry, defense
2026-04-08 09:47:45 <veltas      > Where we can't trust China
2026-04-08 09:47:51 <tpbsd       > china dont care, they probably made the boards
2026-04-08 09:48:05 <veltas      > Not our boards :)
2026-04-08 09:48:17 <veltas      > And we can pay a premium for the smaller shops that survive on that kind of niche
2026-04-08 09:48:21 <tpbsd       > china make 100's of thousands of boards like that every day, maybe millions
2026-04-08 09:48:32 <tpbsd       > sure
2026-04-08 09:48:42 <veltas      > The question is really, as the purchaser, whether you care if it was made in China or not
2026-04-08 09:48:45 <veltas      > And most people won't
2026-04-08 09:49:06 <tpbsd       > most people will care because of the low price by china
2026-04-08 09:49:25 <veltas      > My point is they don't care that it's China, they care about the price
2026-04-08 09:49:45 <tpbsd       > if you have some sooper secret IP, sure pay whatever, better still, do it all inhouse
2026-04-08 09:50:05 <tpbsd       > I agree, it all comes down to the price thesedays
2026-04-08 09:50:44 <veltas      > Not just these days, it's always been about price
2026-04-08 09:50:49 <tpbsd       > does anyone really think that the Chinese need to 'steal' any countries 'secrets' ?
2026-04-08 09:50:49 <veltas      > That's as old as the hills
2026-04-08 09:51:21 <tpbsd       > no it hasnt, it's often been all about the guaranteed quality
2026-04-08 09:51:34 <veltas      > As I said I think the reason China accels in manufacturing is because their currency is cheap and they're not trustworthy, but they're brilliant people
2026-04-08 09:51:48 <veltas      > So we want hard products from them
2026-04-08 09:51:51 <veltas      > And lots of them
2026-04-08 09:51:55 <tpbsd       > agreed, theyre very profit focussed
2026-04-08 09:52:18 <tpbsd       > in business, is anyone really "trustworthy" ?
2026-04-08 09:52:27 <tpbsd       > where profit is concerned ?
2026-04-08 09:52:40 <veltas      > But if China actually became less corrupt and more free then their currency would be less cheap, they would do less manufacturing and more services
2026-04-08 09:53:02 <veltas      > They would outsource their manufacturing to rest of asia slowly because it would basically be like free labour to them, as China is to us right now
2026-04-08 09:53:06 <tpbsd       > let me tell you a true story, it's my story, first hand and how I know about 'secrets' and 'trustworthy'?
2026-04-08 09:53:38 <veltas      > Sure
2026-04-08 09:54:27 <tpbsd       > one day, while working for myself, I was broke and wondering how to feed my family when a friend dropped by, he was on his way to a scrap metal yard to buy a pulley and asked if i'd like to accompany him
2026-04-08 09:54:54 <tpbsd       > I had nothing better to do, so I hopped in his car and off we went
2026-04-08 09:55:31 <tpbsd       > when we got there, I meanandered around all the piles of scrap and he went after a pulley
2026-04-08 09:56:10 <tpbsd       > while I was meandering, I came across 21 cardboard boxes containing one ex army battery
2026-04-08 09:56:30 <tpbsd       > they wanted $8 each for them
2026-04-08 09:57:06 <tpbsd       > when I looke at the batteries they were clearly marked 'silver zinc akaline'
2026-04-08 09:57:52 <tpbsd       > eacg battery weighted about 3kg, so I guessed, based on the weight, they probably contained 1.6kg of silver each
2026-04-08 09:58:32 <tpbsd       > I implored my friend who actually had money, to buy them, but he told me 'youre nuts, they cant be silver"
2026-04-08 09:59:18 <tpbsd       > so whan I got back to my workshop I visited a rich friend I knew and made him a deal, he pays for all the batteries and I get half ?
2026-04-08 09:59:42 <tpbsd       > out came his wallet and I went and bought the 21 units
2026-04-08 10:00:18 <tpbsd       > that afternoon I made $19,000 dollars for my share of the silver in the batteries
2026-04-08 10:00:40 <tpbsd       > not bad for a few hours work and zero expense
2026-04-08 10:01:27 <tpbsd       > I swore my friends to secrecy regarding those batteries so that if any more should turn up. I could buy them
2026-04-08 10:02:25 <tpbsd       > about 3 weeks later I visited the same scrap yard and spoke to the foreman there, in his office and casually asked if  had any more of those batteries for sale ?
2026-04-08 10:03:23 <tpbsd       > he said "what is it about those things " and opened a large file with lists of hundreds of names and phone numbers ...."all those people have asked me the same question" he said
2026-04-08 10:03:39 <tpbsd       > I didnt recognise a single name
2026-04-08 10:04:17 <tpbsd       > thats when I learned that if there is money involved, you cant keep it secret, and word will spread like wildfire
2026-04-08 10:04:35 <tpbsd       > but I could hardly complain :)
2026-04-08 10:09:09 <tpbsd       > I guess it was lucky that I was too dumb to know that it's impossible to find old ww2 batteries marked 'silver zinc' that actually contain silver ?
2026-04-08 10:12:40 <veltas      > Interesting lol
2026-04-08 10:13:23 <tpbsd       > heh yeah
2026-04-08 10:13:50 <veltas      > Yeah a lot of silver got used in the wars for different purposes, and I think often it was all meant to get given back to the respective vaults it came from
2026-04-08 10:13:52 <tpbsd       > hundreds of people would have seen them before me, everyone ignored them
2026-04-08 10:14:24 <veltas      > I know in manhattan project they used silver for all the electrics, the federal reserve agreed this on basis it would all be returned
2026-04-08 10:14:39 <veltas      > "all the electrics" well for a lot of the cables anyway
2026-04-08 10:14:59 <veltas      > I don't know why, maybe copper was in short supply
2026-04-08 10:15:03 <tpbsd       > I think after WW2 everyone was so exhausted and worn out, they didnt care, they were just happy to be still alive
2026-04-08 10:15:21 <veltas      > Yeah based on media from the 50s that seems to be it
2026-04-08 10:15:22 <tpbsd       > it lasted for 7 years for some people
2026-04-08 10:15:43 <tpbsd       > 27 million Russians died
2026-04-08 10:15:57 <tpbsd       > it was the calamity of calamities
2026-04-08 10:17:46 <tpbsd       > that $19,000 kept my family and I happy for a year, even tho my ex wife, when she saw a jam tin lump of silver id melted, swore it was only 'pewter'
2026-04-08 10:18:05 <veltas      > I feel like we could have avoided WW2 with more nuance at Versailles
2026-04-08 10:18:36 <tpbsd       > who knows, sadly there is a lot of money in war, just ask the banks and the MIC ?
2026-04-08 10:19:01 <tpbsd       > so there are a lot of people and industries that pray for war every day
2026-04-08 10:19:14 <tpbsd       > because it's all about $$$$
2026-04-08 10:19:30 <veltas      > Money was a huge factor in WW2 starting
2026-04-08 10:19:56 <veltas      > But I do think Versailles was part of why the Nazis got power
2026-04-08 10:20:35 <tpbsd       > if you make "Tomahawk" cruise missiles for $3 million each, what do you think youll be doing for the next decade now ?
2026-04-08 10:20:47 <veltas      > Germany finally got their revenge in the 90's when they basically put the UK into a perpetual recession with the exchange rate mechanism
2026-04-08 10:21:10 <tpbsd       > humans love war, it's in our nature I think
2026-04-08 10:21:27 <veltas      > Germany loves mogging the UK economically, that's in their nature
2026-04-08 10:21:37 <tpbsd       > I dont wonder why any war started, the basic factor is that humans love war
2026-04-08 10:21:43 <veltas      > The UK just needs to avoid pegging their financial help to keeping pace
2026-04-08 10:21:48 <veltas      > financial health*
2026-04-08 10:33:22 <tpbsd       > veltas, I checked out the new GLM-5.1 AI today
2026-04-08 10:33:43 <tpbsd       > veltas, I asked it this trick question "Is there a Forth for ESP32-C6?"
2026-04-08 10:35:21 <tpbsd       > veltas, most AI's answer, 'yes there is a Forth for the ESP32-C6' but theyre wrong because while there are forths for the "ESP32" the C6 has a RISC-V cpu, and there is as yet no fort for that chip
2026-04-08 10:36:01 <tpbsd       > for anyone interested, here is the GLM-5.1 reply in full : https://bpa.st/K64PI
2026-04-08 10:36:30 <tpbsd       > I think it's exactly right and a big improvement over previous Ai's
2026-04-08 10:39:34 <[[smlckz]]  > ''Writing a Wi-Fi 6 stack in Forth is impractical.'' how impractical is it?
2026-04-08 10:40:27 <veltas      > Very nice tpbsd, interesting reading the reasoning chain too there
2026-04-08 10:40:56 <tpbsd       > smlckz, tabemann wrote one for the RP* series, ask him ?
2026-04-08 10:41:22 <tpbsd       > veltas, yes, the chain of reasoning appeals to me also
2026-04-08 10:42:22 <tpbsd       > smlckz, he wrote it while on my channel, and it took a couple of months iirc, with lots of challenges
2026-04-08 10:42:26 <veltas      > M365 copilot just answered it correctly too, after I told it to "think hard about this"
2026-04-08 10:42:38 <veltas      > So it actually did the chain of reasoning stuff
2026-04-08 10:42:45 <veltas      > But I don't get to see the reasoning
2026-04-08 10:42:51 <tpbsd       > wow, theyre all smartening up
2026-04-08 10:43:16 <tpbsd       > GLM-5 was also correct, but it doesnt show the chain of reasoning
2026-04-08 10:43:29 <tpbsd       > Kimi-K2 failed that test tho
2026-04-08 10:44:35 <tpbsd       > there are so many nuances with embedded forths that the AI's usually get lost and start halucenating
2026-04-08 10:53:33 <[[smlckz]]  > hmm.. is it full time work for so many months?
2026-04-08 10:54:26 <tpbsd       > smlckz, no it was part time as he has a senior programmer job at GE
2026-04-08 10:54:43 <tpbsd       > but he spent all his spare time on it I think
2026-04-08 10:56:21 <tpbsd       > smlckz, I'm a hardware guy and could never do anything like that, but tabemann is a nick on this ch, you can ask him directly
2026-04-08 10:56:55 <tpbsd       > smlckz, tho he lives in Wisconsin, USA so is on that TZ
2026-04-08 10:57:23 <tpbsd       > smlckz, he is the author of zeptoforth
2026-04-08 11:05:11 <veltas      > Took me like 6 months of on and off spare time to write zenv
2026-04-08 11:05:46 <veltas      > Although it's hard to compare spare time and I probably ended up solving a lot of problems that would be irrelevant to a forth on RISC-V
2026-04-08 11:06:03 <veltas      > Like doing 48-bit division on an 8-bit CPU :)
2026-04-08 11:11:35 <[[smlckz]]  > 
ACTION pays respect to tabemann

2026-04-08 11:12:05 <[[smlckz]]  > i don't have much else to say..
2026-04-08 11:13:04 <tpbsd       > veltas, in fact tabemann is currently porting zeptoforth to RISC-V
2026-04-08 11:13:48 <[[smlckz]]  > i have yet to build my own forth, i wonder how long might it take
2026-04-08 11:13:52 <tpbsd       > smlckz, tabemann is a dedicated singular focus programmer for sure
2026-04-08 11:14:29 <tpbsd       > smlckz, anywhere from days to years, depending on your design, skills and drive I guess
2026-04-08 11:15:45 <tpbsd       > smlckz, I once checked out every Forth on Sourceforge and Github, and still maintain copies of all the interesting ones, but I'd say that about 95% of them dont work, have bad bugs are are abandonded
2026-04-08 11:15:58 <tpbsd       > or cant be built
2026-04-08 11:16:36 <tpbsd       > smlckz, because Forth is the easiest OS to make, just about every programmer makes one at some point
2026-04-08 11:17:24 <tpbsd       > I have forths built in Bash, Perl, C, Assembly, Go, you name it
2026-04-08 11:36:19 <veltas      > tpbsd: Was it for ARM originally?
2026-04-08 11:36:46 <veltas      > I mean same difference, both are much more advanced than Z80
2026-04-08 11:37:21 <tpbsd       > veltas, was what for ARM ?
2026-04-08 11:37:24 <veltas      > [[smlckz]]: It can take very little time if you're dedicated, skilled, and limit the scope of what you are developing
2026-04-08 11:37:48 <veltas      > But I'm only so skilled and didn't limit my scope too much, and only have so much time
2026-04-08 11:37:58 <veltas      > tpbsd: zeptoforth
2026-04-08 11:38:35 <tpbsd       > veltas, yes, he developed it for Cortex-M initially but then was seduced by the RP*
2026-04-08 11:39:42 <tpbsd       > the RP* has a Cortex-M dual core and it's own PIO design, plus it has no NV memory, depending on external SPI flash
2026-04-08 11:40:43 <tpbsd       > veltas, but I see no advantage of the RP* and lots of disadvantages, so I have no interest in it
2026-04-08 11:41:18 <[[smlckz]]  > 'limit the scope' ah.. i'm more of a math person, without much 'hardware empathy'.. i didn't get to develop such.. i'm afraid it turn into a 'concatenative' language, instead of a forth
2026-04-08 11:41:39 <veltas      > Well that could still be limited in scope
2026-04-08 11:41:51 <veltas      > And you'll avoid the double arithmetic rabbit hole I went down
2026-04-08 11:42:55 <veltas      > You only need M* and M/ (or UM/) to implement arbitrary precision anyway, and those are 'easy' on most modern archs
2026-04-08 11:43:05 <veltas      > Not easy on Cortex-M0 though
2026-04-08 11:43:36 <tpbsd       > smlckz, Matthias Koch, the developer of Mecrisp-Stellaris is a scientist who loves maths and he did a awesome job of his Forth
2026-04-08 11:44:20 <veltas      > Cortex-M3 is minimum for mixed multiply
2026-04-08 11:44:24 <tpbsd       > smlckz, he especially loves algorithms
2026-04-08 11:44:51 <veltas      > With instruction support anyway
2026-04-08 11:44:58 <tpbsd       > veltas, yuk, avoid the Cortex-M3 for it's GPIO fabric is cursed!
2026-04-08 11:45:39 <tpbsd       > veltas, M4 is safe, M0 and M0+ are safe, H7 is safe
2026-04-08 11:46:36 <tpbsd       > veltas, well the STM32F1xx M3 is cursed!
2026-04-08 11:46:52 <tpbsd       > I dont know about other brands tho
2026-04-08 11:47:20 <veltas      > Yeah I don't know if they share GPIO IP
2026-04-08 11:47:38 <veltas      > I.e. if ARM licenses that part or they all run their own
2026-04-08 11:47:58 <veltas      > My experience with M3 has been uncursed
2026-04-08 11:48:03 <veltas      > Limited albeit
2026-04-08 11:51:31 <tpbsd       > veltas, the M3 cpu is fine, and very fast
2026-04-08 11:51:58 <tpbsd       > veltas, no ARM dont have any peripherals such as gpio
2026-04-08 11:52:09 <tpbsd       > ARM only does the core
2026-04-08 11:52:26 <tpbsd       > each mfr organises their own peripherals
2026-04-08 11:53:09 <tpbsd       > and it's the STM M3 gpio thats cursed, I didnt explain myself properly, apologies
2026-04-08 11:53:50 <veltas      > It's okay I didn't assume that from what you said anyway
2026-04-08 11:53:59 <tpbsd       > in fact in my tests, the m3 is about 8x faster than the M0 on the same code
2026-04-08 11:54:36 <veltas      > But we're all duct tape programmers are we not
2026-04-08 11:54:40 <veltas      > Who needs those transistors
2026-04-08 11:57:40 <tpbsd       > hehe, I'm not a programmer, Im a transistor lover
2026-04-08 11:58:44 <tpbsd       > while programmers lovingly polish code, I lovingly analyse circuit schematics to deduce their operation
2026-04-08 11:59:36 <tpbsd       > electronic theory is very nested and goes several levels deep and wide with interactions
2026-04-08 12:07:09 <veltas      > Yes but surely transistors are quality over quantity?
2026-04-08 12:10:26 <tpbsd       > veltas, that question has never occured to me
2026-04-08 12:11:47 <tpbsd       > transistors are made in different types, and each type is made exactly the same as other of it type, tho they are also graded for temperature and voltage
2026-04-08 12:12:43 <tpbsd       > so Id say that transistors are different types and all of the highest quality for their types
2026-04-08 12:13:36 <veltas      > Rather I would say if you *can* use less transistors, by being more careful and paying more attention to your design, then that may be better than just throwing more in
2026-04-08 12:13:44 <tpbsd       > veltas, then we use the same types in different designs, ie common emitter, common base or common collector for bipolar junction types
2026-04-08 12:16:23 <tpbsd       > veltas, no, we dont consider using more or less transistors as a important feature, there are many important factors however, ie electrical noise, temperature, maximum voltages, gain (hFe) etc
2026-04-08 12:17:05 <tpbsd       > I use as many transistors as the design demands because the performance is far more important
2026-04-08 12:17:30 <veltas      > Well it impacts the price, of e.g. a Cortex-M0 chip vs Cortex-M4 chip
2026-04-08 12:18:26 <veltas      > The required performance will depend on the application and if you can achieve the required perf with a cheaper MCU then sometimes that is important
2026-04-08 12:18:48 <veltas      > And for me that's the 'more elegant solution' but that's more subjective
2026-04-08 12:23:23 <tpbsd       > are the numbers of transistors really important in the age of 2nm noded when there may be billions of them ?
2026-04-08 12:25:56 <tpbsd       > it's true that the cortex-m0 has a very small number of transistors, approximately 12000 logic gates which is the same as the AVR 8-bit microcontroller core.
2026-04-08 12:26:37 <tpbsd       > but the m4 is a beast in comparison, and like lightning in a speed contest
2026-04-08 12:32:54 <veltas      > Sometimes it matters, but for the other times it's just subjective
2026-04-08 12:33:05 <veltas      > Beauty in eye of beholder etc
2026-04-08 12:35:07 <tpbsd       > veltas, I think that MSP430 fits your 'design excellence' more than STMxx as TI are the masters of analog and chip design
2026-04-08 12:35:38 <tpbsd       > I'm sure TI MSP430 designers cant sleep until every paramater is perfect
2026-04-08 12:36:22 <tpbsd       > but Cortex-Mx is just a chip design, ARM dont actually make any chips themselves, or didnt until recently
2026-04-08 12:37:52 <tpbsd       > vor instance one can slap a length of wire onto a powerless low power MSP430 blinky and it will run by using the RF power from radio stations from the wire acting as an antenna
2026-04-08 12:38:13 <tpbsd       > Ive never seen a STM32 do that
2026-04-08 12:40:27 <iv4nshm4k0v > FWIW, I wouldn't mind getting involved in the design of software / hardware for CubeSat or something along these lines.  And IIUC, "2 nm" is not a viable choice there.
2026-04-08 12:42:55 <tpbsd       > iv4nshm4k0v, Matthias Koch (mecrisp architecht) has been working on space related stuff for some time now, he seems to enjoy it
2026-04-08 12:43:55 <tpbsd       > iv4nshm4k0v, yes, 2nM is probably terrible in space because it's too small for 'deep space' where there are plenty of energetic protons from the Sun causing havoc
2026-04-08 12:44:29 <tpbsd       > I believe they use SOS (silicon on Saphire) in larger nodes for radiation hardening
2026-04-08 12:45:49 <tpbsd       > iv4nshm4k0v, in the early days, Forth was popular for space as it ran on the Novix-2000 which was available in radiation hardened versions, unlike most processors
2026-04-08 12:46:35 <tpbsd       > iv4nshm4k0v, but I believe that any old crap can be made for space now, ie 80286 cpu etc
2026-04-08 12:47:14 <Riviera     > Bring back space-safe tubes and build modern tube CPUs! :)
2026-04-08 12:48:29 <tpbsd       > Riviera, yeah man, so warm and toasty!
2026-04-08 12:48:58 <tpbsd       > 
ACTION grew up with tubes, and learnt electronics with them

2026-04-08 13:40:22 <iv4nshm4k0v > I've learned the initial bits of electronics from my grandfather, so I did some tube circuits early on as well.
2026-04-08 13:41:41 <tpbsd       > iv4nshm4k0v, thats cool, I still have happy memories of that time
2026-04-08 13:42:37 <tpbsd       > but tubes gave way to semiconductors and then micrprocessors became possible, it's been a fascinating journey for me
2026-04-08 14:14:37 <KipIngram   > tpbsd: I think you and I actually got to live through the best part of the history of electronics.  You're a bit older and got an even better ride, but mine was still pretty terrific.  The 80's were heady days in the field.
2026-04-08 14:14:50 <KipIngram   > Everything was changing so fast, and you really had to be nimble to keep up with it.
2026-04-08 14:15:04 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, true words
2026-04-08 14:15:21 <KipIngram   > I do wish I'd had some hands on time with tubes, but they were mostly dead by the time I got involved.
2026-04-08 14:15:55 <KipIngram   > I've read about them a good bit, and still hope to do some projects with them.  I love how straightforward it is to understand what tubes are doing via basic physics.
2026-04-08 14:16:25 <KipIngram   > Basically just make a piece of metal hot to loosen up the electrons, and then start applying voltages the right way.  It all makes great sense at a "basic understanding" level.
2026-04-08 14:16:38 <KipIngram   > Semiconductors do too, but the physics is a fair bit more involved.
2026-04-08 14:16:43 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, I was a teenager in the 1970's and by then Australia had enjoyed 20+ years of american surplus but even I was able to enjoy the benefits for about 5 years
2026-04-08 14:17:49 <KipIngram   > I was a teen in the late 1970's too, but I grew up in a small town and just really had no good opportunities offered to me to get involved with electronics.  I didn't really get hands on until college, in the early 1980's.
2026-04-08 14:18:23 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, imagine the most awesome, precision electronics, all brand new, stacked to the rooftops of every room in the 'surplus' stores  and available for a few dollars, it was just a incredible time
2026-04-08 14:18:30 <KipIngram   > In high school I was confined to books pretty much, and even then just things like encyclopedias, the science books my dad (a chemistry professor) had, etc.
2026-04-08 14:18:56 <tpbsd       > it was like Chinese prices for german precision gear
2026-04-08 14:20:03 <KipIngram   > And honestly when I was an undergraduate I was fairly "typical" mentality wise.  I was smart so I made good grades, but I really didn't do more than just "make the grades" - I was more involved with "enjoying college life."  It was when I came back to graduate school a couple of years later than somehow my mind really engaged in the way that has defined me ever since.
2026-04-08 14:20:31 <tpbsd       > I grew up as a child with the 1954 ARRL handbook, it was like a bible to me, and all the really awesome valves detailed in it, were available for cheap, and brand new in their boxes at the surplus stores
2026-04-08 14:20:48 <KipIngram   > I.e., I squandered a few of those early years insofar as learning went.  I could have done a lot more.  Better late than never though, I guess.
2026-04-08 14:20:55 <tpbsd       > hehe
2026-04-08 14:21:53 <tpbsd       > I was all about the tech until I hit 15 and was enchanted by the female of the species, but until then I had jam packed my life full of electronics from the age of 9
2026-04-08 14:22:10 <KipIngram   > That's really excellent.  :-)
2026-04-08 14:22:29 <KipIngram   > I did learn some things tinkering around in my dad's lab at his work.
2026-04-08 14:22:52 <KipIngram   > So I was pretty well situated when it came time to do high school chemistry.  :-)
2026-04-08 14:23:06 <tpbsd       > It meant I was single minded about electronics for 6 years until I got a job and naturally I went straight into electronics and remained in it all my life
2026-04-08 14:23:58 <tpbsd       > thats cool also. Sadly I suspect many kids wont have the benefit of a dads lab or workshop thesedays, many dont even get a dad
2026-04-08 14:24:08 <KipIngram   > I was unsure what I'd do until it was almost time to start college.  I had it fairly narrowed down to either electrical or chemical engineering - the choice of electrical was more or less random.  I was curious about radio technology, and knew nothing about it.  That was more or less the basis of the choice.
2026-04-08 14:24:40 <KipIngram   > I had no idea there was a microelectronics revolution in progress.\
2026-04-08 14:24:47 <tpbsd       > I was 100% certain by age 9 that I would spend my life doing electronics and nothing but
2026-04-08 14:25:37 <KipIngram   > And the impact of such decisions can be amazing - for example, if I'd chose chemical engineering then I wouldn't have met my wife of 29 years.
2026-04-08 14:25:43 <tpbsd       > I did get sitetracked into many other fields from about 20 years old, after all life is just too interesting for that not to happen
2026-04-08 14:26:14 <KipIngram   > That's God's truth - one of my big "problems" is that I constantly get pulled from one topic of interest to another.
2026-04-08 14:26:23 <tpbsd       > wow, thats amazing to me, a good wife!
2026-04-08 14:27:19 <KipIngram   > She really is - I had to fish twice to get her, but I knew almost immediately "this was the one."  I'd told myself I wasn't going to get married again - the first go round was more or less a disaster (aside from producing two great daughters).  But I turned on a dime when I met my current wife.
2026-04-08 14:27:31 <tpbsd       > my own mother was often furious with me because I was a terrible student, I just wasnt interested in anything but electronics
2026-04-08 14:27:53 <KipIngram   > You really can't control those things - you're interested in what you're interested in.
2026-04-08 14:27:53 <tpbsd       > thats fantastic to hear :)
2026-04-08 14:27:58 <KipIngram   > It sort of has a life of its own.
2026-04-08 14:28:51 <KipIngram   > Tell you what - being interested in "too many things" is a whole lot better than being interested in nothing.
2026-04-08 14:29:12 <tpbsd       > like all youth I was obliged by law to attend high school, but id read my ARRL handbook instead of school books in class, I think the teachers knew it was pointless to deter me
2026-04-08 14:30:13 <tpbsd       > and in those days, no one knew anything about electronics and they knew it
2026-04-08 14:30:32 <tpbsd       > except me, for I lived and breathed electronics
2026-04-08 14:30:41 <KipIngram   > I was a fairly easy kid - I followed the rules and checked the boxes.  But like I said above, the fire didn't really light until I was in graduate school.  I'm not sure what was "different."  Earlier I just learned what I needed to learn to do well in the class, but I wasn't really "organizing and internalizing" it all the way I started doing later.
2026-04-08 14:30:52 <tpbsd       > those were different times tho
2026-04-08 14:30:59 <KipIngram   > After that change I was pretty obsessed with understanding things way down to the foundation level.
2026-04-08 14:31:28 <tpbsd       > id describe myself as 'obsessed' when it came to electronics
2026-04-08 14:31:30 <KipIngram   > I think that's the key to learning "a lot" - if you understand those basics you start to see how it all fits together, and that makes it easier to remember.
2026-04-08 14:31:48 <KipIngram   > You have a structure to fit all the pieces into.
2026-04-08 14:32:14 <tpbsd       > I'm sure my parents and rellies and their friends said 'terry's a smart kid, but none of us can communicate with him'
2026-04-08 14:33:23 <tpbsd       > I think they just accepted that I had my own ways, was fully organised and eventually they stopped trying to control me
2026-04-08 14:33:48 <KipIngram   > And lookee lookee - it all worked out fine.  :-)
2026-04-08 14:34:09 <tpbsd       > but it was the fact that I had access to awesome cheap 'surplus' electronics that made my obsession possib;e
2026-04-08 14:34:24 <KipIngram   > Spoils of war.  :-)
2026-04-08 14:34:33 <tpbsd       > you can't control a tornado!
2026-04-08 14:35:00 <tpbsd       > but that era is gone, if I was born today id be so screwed
2026-04-08 14:37:01 <tpbsd       > ww2 was a terrible hell that lasted 7 years and everyone on earth was worn out and wanted peace
2026-04-08 14:37:26 <tpbsd       > the army surplus was the only good thing to come out of that hell
2026-04-08 14:37:49 <tpbsd       > and I was lucky enough to have the benefit of the last 5 years or so
2026-04-08 14:38:37 <tpbsd       > imagine if I was a teenager in 1950 ! id have had 25 years of army surplus!
2026-04-08 14:39:51 <tpbsd       > I remember when I was about 13 years old, I found a army surplus transformer for about $5. It was oil cooled, 240vac in and 9000 vac out
2026-04-08 14:41:28 <tpbsd       > they dropped it off at my home for $5 (on a trolley) and I immediately made a DC valve anode supply with it and hooked up a couple of 835A beam tetrodes and made a 1KW push pull amplifier
2026-04-08 14:41:57 <tpbsd       > the RF outa that amp was incredible
2026-04-08 14:42:49 <tpbsd       > something like that now would cost $2000 at least
2026-04-08 14:50:14 <KipIngram   > Yeah, WWII was awful, but I think the seeds of it were planted in WWI.  WWI was stupid and that one could probably have been avoided if people had been a little more sensible.  And then the winners were too heavy-handed with Germany afterward, and that (along with the Great Depression) is how Hitler got his launch.
2026-04-08 14:51:37 <KipIngram   > The Depression really couldn't have been better timed insofar as helping him to power went.
2026-04-08 14:53:07 <KipIngram   > Fortunately he made some mistakes.  Declaring war on the United States after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was a stupid move.  He really DID NOT want us in his business, and at the time the US population was upset with JAPAN, not Germany.
2026-04-08 14:53:21 <tpbsd       > you and I were lucky to have escaped those times, and live in the era of plenty that followed them
2026-04-08 14:53:47 <KipIngram   > Roosevelt understood the danger Hitler represented, but it's unclear whether he could have gotten popular support for a war in Europe had Hitler not picked a fight with us.
2026-04-08 14:53:57 <KipIngram   > Yes, absolutely.
2026-04-08 14:54:04 <tpbsd       > in my case, a kid addicted to electronics had cheap high quality army surplus parts
2026-04-08 14:54:10 <veltas      > KipIngram: The stupider move was attacking Soviets
2026-04-08 14:54:12 <KipIngram   > I'm quite aware of how calm my  life has been.
2026-04-08 14:54:34 <KipIngram   > Yes, at least at that moment.  In time Stalin would have attacked him.
2026-04-08 14:54:41 <KipIngram   > But it didn't necessarily need to be THEN.
2026-04-08 14:54:59 <veltas      > He might have been able to fend off the soviets on their own
2026-04-08 14:55:03 <veltas      > But on two fronts....
2026-04-08 14:55:06 <veltas      > And during winter
2026-04-08 14:55:17 <KipIngram   > And thank goodness Churchill got tapped - there were other candidates that leaned more toward making peace.
2026-04-08 14:55:48 <KipIngram   > But that would have been a false  peace - Hitler would have come for Britain eventually.
2026-04-08 14:55:52 <veltas      > Well Chamberlain did actually declare war
2026-04-08 14:55:54 <tpbsd       > I was looking thu amazon the other day, it's really amazing, a cheap, fairly junky, mostly useless 'electronics kit' starts at $108 AUD, what kid can afford that ?
2026-04-08 14:56:01 <KipIngram   > Yes, he did.
2026-04-08 14:56:16 <veltas      > I don't think appeasement was a terrible idea at the time, but it clearly failed, it succeeded in buying a bit of time for us to rebuild military
2026-04-08 14:56:31 <veltas      > Even when we declared war we still weren't ready to resist Hitler
2026-04-08 14:56:41 <KipIngram   > I was referring more to... oh goodness - I can't remember his name now.  After Chamberlain resigned, there was another prominent guy.  A really tall guy - I've seen a picture of him towering over Churchill.
2026-04-08 14:56:52 <tpbsd       > Im a bit old now, but I do feel that one could design a cheap, kick arse electronics kit that's affordable
2026-04-08 14:56:53 <veltas      > It took months more and then a pyrric victory in Battle of Britain
2026-04-08 14:56:54 <KipIngram   > I should know this name.  I DO know this name.
2026-04-08 14:57:00 <KipIngram   > Just can't think of it right now.
2026-04-08 14:57:34 <veltas      > Halifax
2026-04-08 14:57:35 <tpbsd       > but what kids are interested in electronics nowadays ?
2026-04-08 14:57:40 <KipIngram   > I think he may have been Churchill's Chancellor of the Exechequr?
2026-04-08 14:58:03 <KipIngram   > Yes - him.  He at least initially was in favor of some kind of settlement, though he thought differently later, I think.
2026-04-08 14:58:40 <tpbsd       > I used to be a member of the local LUG (linux user group) and it was all old guys, no teenagers or young men at all
2026-04-08 14:58:50 <KipIngram   > Churchill has always been a heroic figure to me.
2026-04-08 14:58:55 <veltas      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_British_war_cabinet_crisis
2026-04-08 14:59:42 <veltas      > Chamberlain helped Churchill there
2026-04-08 15:00:13 <KipIngram   > I think I read somewhere that on his way out Chamberlain told the King "It has to be Churchill."
2026-04-08 15:01:06 <KipIngram   > I think Chamberlain gets something of a bad rep.  More than he should.  Yes, he misread Hitler, but he had the very best of intentions, and if Hitler hadn't been more or less psychotic - if he'd been AT ALL interested in avoiding war - it might have worked.
2026-04-08 15:01:44 <KipIngram   > On hindsight Charmberlain's moves were "wrong," but I don't t hink one could have known that at the time.
2026-04-08 15:05:02 <KipIngram   > There were several points at which, if he'd just stopped and called it good enough, Hitler likely would have gone into the history books as a German hero.  He accomplished so much.
2026-04-08 15:08:44 <KipIngram   > For a long time I was in the "Chamberlain sucked" camp, but I've learned more about it recently and I no longer feel that way.  He was a very competent guy just caught in a really nasty situation.
2026-04-08 15:10:13 <KipIngram   > And no one really realized just how bad Hitler was.  Though we should have - he'd told everyone in Mein Kampf exactly what he intended to do.  I guess the people that had read it just figured it was a youngster's ranting or something.
2026-04-08 15:42:22 <veltas      > As I said Chamberlain's the one who declared war
2026-04-08 15:42:33 <veltas      > And gave Germany an ultimatum
2026-04-08 15:43:12 <veltas      > It was because of the Nazi-Soviet pact that things really got out of control, and that's when it was clear there was no ignoring these two entities
2026-04-08 15:43:39 <veltas      > And the next 60 years were spent trying to recover from this situation
2026-04-08 15:44:37 <veltas      > Up front we agreed a tenuous alliance with soviets to stop hitler but it was already clear that the soviets were a big problem too, we just couldn't have won WW2 without them
2026-04-08 16:02:41 <KipIngram   > Right - there was really never going to be long term friendship between the West and the USSR.
2026-04-08 16:03:10 <KipIngram   > And I agree they were critical to winning.
2026-04-08 16:03:39 <KipIngram   > Hitler wasn't the first European tyrant that Russia was the downfall of.
2026-04-08 16:10:27 <veltas      > Interestingly the Bolsheviks were funded by Prussia
2026-04-08 16:10:57 <veltas      > Make of that what you will but Lenin might not have been able to topple the democratic government in Russia without Prussia's help
2026-04-08 16:11:09 <veltas      > Quite often meddling in other countries causes harm to the meddler
2026-04-08 16:50:19 <veltas      > So what are the ways to handle error control flow in forth, we've got error code on top of stack + EXIT, RDROP EXIT, THROW, anything else?
2026-04-08 16:50:26 <veltas      > ABORT" too
2026-04-08 16:50:37 <veltas      > Has anyone come up with something better?
2026-04-08 17:39:15 <smlckz      > i wonder what an adaptation of call/cc would look like in forth
2026-04-08 17:51:13 <veltas      > That's what THROW / CATCH are trying to do I think?
2026-04-08 17:55:38 <veltas      > Although it's probably less powerful
2026-04-08 18:07:58 <smlckz      > for forth, the equivalent of call/cc is like being able to define a system- or supervisor call as a word, take its address (with ' or perhaps noname: ) and pass it around to be called later, elsewhere
2026-04-08 18:09:57 <smlckz      > (or was it :noname ?)
2026-04-08 18:11:52 <veltas      > Practically you can't really do the same thing in a traditional Forth
2026-04-08 18:12:12 <veltas      > It's probably easier to compare with C or procedural languages
2026-04-08 18:12:26 <veltas      > Like setjmp/longjmp, signals, etc
2026-04-08 18:31:58 <smlckz      > hmm
2026-04-08 18:33:27 <veltas      > :noname
2026-04-08 19:54:14 <hello-operator> veltas: : create does> ." A" does> ." B" does> ." C" ;
2026-04-08 19:55:34 <hello-operator> Sorry, I read that as "what ways are there to handle control flow", and I thought that was an odd thing, it has nothing to do with error handling