2026-04-12 00:37:22 <KipIngram   > That sounds fun.
2026-04-12 02:04:26 <KipIngram   > Wow - I'm still very much liking SponsorBlock.
2026-04-12 04:02:25 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, I have that with Brace browser on my Linux backup pc
2026-04-12 04:02:31 <tpbsd       > Brave
2026-04-12 04:13:36 <tpbsd       > South Korea introduces universal basic mobile data access
2026-04-12 04:13:45 <tpbsd       > Everyone gets unlimited 400 Kbps access, oldies get expanded caps, and leaky telcos get their social license back
2026-04-12 04:14:25 <tpbsd       > thats a bit like what I have woth Starlink ? I mean at $8.50 a month, my Starlink plan is virtially free
2026-04-12 04:15:32 <tpbsd       > "It is crucial to contribute to public welfare – such as by guaranteeing basic telecommunications rights for all citizens" South Korea said
2026-04-12 12:49:38 <KipIngram   > I think that's a worthwhile policy for a country to adopt.  People argue about this, but I think the way our culture has evolved the Internet is the modern equivalent of the "town square" - having reasonable access to it has become something of a free speech issue.
2026-04-12 12:50:52 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, I agree
2026-04-12 12:50:56 <KipIngram   > I also think that given the dominance certain players have achieved in that sphere - Facebook, X, etc. - that they should be subject (in the United States, at least) to the same Constitutional limitations that the government is subject to - they shouldn't be able to muzzle people just because they don't like the political content of their material.
2026-04-12 12:51:23 <KipIngram   > I get it that they "own the company," but they've become too important to have that sort of arbitrary power over the public information flow.
2026-04-12 12:52:12 <KipIngram   > Following my town square anaology, blocking people for unpopular political opinions is effectively "kicking them out of the town square."
2026-04-12 12:52:58 <tpbsd       > the Australian govt has just spent 20 million on the fuel supply problem ... on tv adverts to tell us to use less fuel
2026-04-12 12:53:22 <KipIngram   > Generally speaking, I think that the larger and more powerful a company becomes - the more critical it becomes to the general welfare - the more it should be under some set of behavioral restrictions arrived at through the political process.
2026-04-12 12:53:31 <tpbsd       > we had 8 refineries in the 70's we only have two now
2026-04-12 12:53:51 <KipIngram   > The public welfare just shouldn't be subject to the whims of a few rich guys.
2026-04-12 12:54:17 <KipIngram   > On the other hand, I'm all for smaller companies operating more or less however they please, so long as they're obeying the law.
2026-04-12 12:54:18 <tpbsd       > sadly money talks and dances, especially to politicans thesedays
2026-04-12 12:54:34 <KipIngram   > Yes - that's absolutely the mess we've gotten ourselves into.
2026-04-12 12:55:00 <tpbsd       > corruption in Australia is massive, especially with the govt and lobbies etc, same as everywhere
2026-04-12 12:55:06 <KipIngram   > Eisenhower warned in his farewell address about "the military industrial complex" - that was a harbinger of this whole process.
2026-04-12 12:55:17 <tpbsd       > yeah, he was so right
2026-04-12 12:56:31 <KipIngram   > Some mouthpieces on the right will harp about "freedom" when they defend the rights of big corporations to do whatever they want, but I find that to be a perversion of the concept of freedom.  It's the freedom of INDIVIDUALS that is relevant.
2026-04-12 12:56:40 <tpbsd       > how about the american constitution ? I read where it said that all currency should be gold based and anyone trying to introduce paper money should be put to death ? or did I imagine that ?
2026-04-12 12:57:19 <KipIngram   > I'm not aware that it says anything about the currency, but I don't know that I've ever done a careful scrutiny of the whole thing.  That sounds incorrect to me, though.
2026-04-12 12:57:35 <tpbsd       > but that rule didnt take long to be ignored, I think by Lincoln
2026-04-12 12:57:46 <KipIngram   > I don't recall there being a Constitutional flap when Nixon took us off the gold standard, but I was only 9 or so at the time.
2026-04-12 12:58:08 <tpbsd       > it was lincoln who introduced paper money iirc
2026-04-12 12:58:24 <KipIngram   > It was still backed by gold in a specific fixed way, though.
2026-04-12 12:59:02 <KipIngram   > The really big step was taken by Nixon.
2026-04-12 12:59:20 <KipIngram   > That was when we just set the gold standard aside altogether.
2026-04-12 12:59:55 <KipIngram   > Other countries have done that at times, but those other countries didn't have a currency that impacted the whole damn planet.
2026-04-12 13:01:09 <tpbsd       > No state shall coin money, emit bills of credit, or make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. ~ Art. I, sec. 10, cl. 1.
2026-04-12 13:01:30 <KipIngram   > I don't really understand all that high finance, but I can't really beat the sneaky suspicion that somehow the dominance of the dollar in the world economy has made it possible for the U.S. to offload the impact of its deficit spending to other nations in a way other countries couldn't accomplish.
2026-04-12 13:01:33 <tpbsd       > perhaps I was thinking of that
2026-04-12 13:01:57 <KipIngram   > Oh, the STATES can't mint money.  Only the federal government.
2026-04-12 13:02:04 <tpbsd       > youre right I think, and I'm sure the 'petrodollar' helped there
2026-04-12 13:02:24 <KipIngram   > That was to keep all the 13 colonies from having their own currencies - it was to promote smoother interstate commerce.
2026-04-12 13:02:45 <tpbsd       > Only gold or silver coins and currency (banknotes fully backed by and readily redeemable in specie) may serve as legal tender.
2026-04-12 13:03:25 <KipIngram   > You know that was our second attempt at a "national government."  First we had the Articles of Confederation, and for numerous reasons that didn't work very well.  It didn't convey enough power to the federal authority.
2026-04-12 13:03:48 <KipIngram   > But the colonies were really suspicious of federal authority, so it doesn't surprise me they tried something weaker first.
2026-04-12 13:04:01 <KipIngram   > They had to see the problems before they were willing to cede more power.
2026-04-12 13:04:14 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, on another subject, did you see that france, italy, the eu in general are dumping microsoft windows atm, theyre moving everything to Linux ?
2026-04-12 13:04:39 <KipIngram   > And even then it took a lot of horse trading to get something that all 13 would sign on for.  Compromises between the more and less populous states, etc.
2026-04-12 13:05:12 <KipIngram   > That's why we have a House of Representatives that's proportional to population but a Senate in which all states have equal power, and it's also part of how the Electoral College works.
2026-04-12 13:05:17 <tpbsd       > the business of creating and running a whole country is mind boggling to me
2026-04-12 13:05:26 <KipIngram   > Yeah, for sure.
2026-04-12 13:05:53 <KipIngram   > Each state gets a number of electors equal to the sum of its House members and its Senators, so small states have slightly amplified influence in the College.
2026-04-12 13:06:18 <tpbsd       > yeah, I have understood that part of the USA for about a decade now
2026-04-12 13:06:19 <KipIngram   > Originally a states electors were just chosen by their state government.  There was no direct popular election of the President.
2026-04-12 13:06:41 <KipIngram   > The idea was that the federal government was at arm's length from the people - it was a government of the STATES.
2026-04-12 13:07:02 <KipIngram   > There was no federal income tax initially - the federal government was funded directly by the state goernments.
2026-04-12 13:07:07 <KipIngram   > governments
2026-04-12 13:07:21 <KipIngram   > We had to amend the Constitution to even allow a federal income tax.
2026-04-12 13:07:23 <tpbsd       > yeah, I understand the electrol college
2026-04-12 13:08:34 <KipIngram   > People constantly argue about it.  But I think the real thing that results in situations where someone can win the Presidency without winning the popular vote is the fact that all of our states but two vote 100% of their electors for the person that wins the popular vote in that state.
2026-04-12 13:08:39 <tpbsd       > and how it works. I looked into it when trump was first running for president, so I could watch the election on tv and understand it all
2026-04-12 13:08:44 <KipIngram   > You'd think it would be proportional, but that's not how it's done.
2026-04-12 13:09:00 <KipIngram   > So you win California by one vote, and you get ALL of Cali's electors.
2026-04-12 13:09:27 <tpbsd       > of course it's different here in Australia where it's illegal not to vote
2026-04-12 13:09:28 <KipIngram   > But that's a per-state decision - the Constitution says states can deploy their electors however they want.
2026-04-12 13:10:08 <KipIngram   > And choose them however they want.  Initially most states chose them at the legislature level, but gradually they transitioned to popular vote selection.
2026-04-12 13:10:29 <KipIngram   > Oh, and initially Senators were chosen by the state legislatures too.  Changing that also took an amendment.
2026-04-12 13:11:07 <KipIngram   > In the beginning the federal government was quite a bit less democratic than it is now.  The founders were worried about "the  power of the mob."
2026-04-12 13:11:17 <KipIngram   > And deliberately attempted to blunt it.
2026-04-12 13:11:42 <tpbsd       > after I voted for Gough Whitlam in the 70's (so I wouldnt have to risk being drafted an sent to vietnam) and his govt won, then the english governor general sacked his govt, I never voted again, I figured 'whats the point'
2026-04-12 13:12:07 <KipIngram   > I imagine the French Revolution, which happened barely after the Constitution was penned, confirmed those fears to some extent.
2026-04-12 13:12:32 <tpbsd       > I vote in a govt, the english rulers sack that government, so why bother
2026-04-12 13:12:53 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  Voting is entirely voluntary in the US, and many people here also don't bother.
2026-04-12 13:13:17 <tpbsd       > one gets fined hundreds of dollars here if they dont vote
2026-04-12 13:13:25 <KipIngram   > My take on American politics is that we have these two very active and vocal extremes, and then a big "middle" that most of the time isn't interested.
2026-04-12 13:13:37 <KipIngram   > That middle "activates" when it perceives things are swinging too far one way or the other.
2026-04-12 13:13:41 <tpbsd       > sounds reasonable
2026-04-12 13:14:02 <KipIngram   > But there are really only two choices - no way to impose a "middle" government.  So it if swings too far one way, the middle just shoves it over to the other side.
2026-04-12 13:14:11 <KipIngram   > So we wind up with this "bang bang" cycle.
2026-04-12 13:14:33 <tpbsd       > for many years I would go to the voting office and just scrawl 'leave me alone you bastards' on the ticket, but not vote
2026-04-12 13:15:14 <KipIngram   > Historically I've voted Republican, but the Republican party as I knew it just imploded, and at the moment I'm not really happy with either option on the table.
2026-04-12 13:15:52 <KipIngram   > I really never saw that coming - I used to worry about the possibility of the far left getting into power, but I thought the truly far right was just never going to be an issue.  But suddenly here we are.
2026-04-12 13:16:17 <tpbsd       > eventually I was travelling around australia on a motorbike (again) and was out of touch for a while. The Australia voting office wrote me a letter, which I never received and when I finally got back to civizilation they found me again, and decided to 'punish' me for not voting I guess
2026-04-12 13:16:35 <KipIngram   > :-(
2026-04-12 13:17:07 <KipIngram   > As far as I'm concerned "not voting" is actually a vote in itself.  It's a vote for the idea that they're not offering you reasonable options.
2026-04-12 13:17:11 <tpbsd       > but I would have thrown a party if I had ever consumed alcohol, when they did punish me, guess why ?
2026-04-12 13:17:32 <tpbsd       > or rather guess what the punnishment was ?
2026-04-12 13:17:41 <tpbsd       > they banned me from voting!
2026-04-12 13:17:46 <KipIngram   > I can't come up with any good guess.
2026-04-12 13:17:49 <KipIngram   > lmao
2026-04-12 13:17:54 <KipIngram   > that all makes perfect sense.
2026-04-12 13:18:02 <KipIngram   > ^ sarcasm
2026-04-12 13:18:02 <tpbsd       > I was jumping for joy
2026-04-12 13:18:09 <KipIngram   > That's hilarious.
2026-04-12 13:18:26 <KipIngram   > But... it's government, so why should we expect sanity?
2026-04-12 13:18:28 <tpbsd       > maybe someone there decided to do me a favor and just disguised it ?
2026-04-12 13:18:54 <tpbsd       > so Ive never had to vote  since them, unlike everyone else
2026-04-12 13:19:40 <KipIngram   > At the moment I feel like watching the US government is like watching a bad reality TV show.
2026-04-12 13:19:51 <tpbsd       > occasionaly the govt writes me, 'why didnt you vote ? you know it's an offence not to vote ?' I just ignore it
2026-04-12 13:20:17 <tpbsd       > if only Id kept that letter from the Australian govt!
2026-04-12 13:20:38 <tpbsd       > of course this was long before the Internet and email
2026-04-12 13:20:43 <tpbsd       > long before PC's
2026-04-12 13:20:44 <KipIngram   > I think that if everyone in the US was forced to vote (never mind that would go over like a lead balloon here) both parties would be more centrist.
2026-04-12 13:21:15 <tpbsd       > yeah, trump does seem a little mad from all the negative articles I read about him
2026-04-12 13:21:36 <KipIngram   > It's just quite a mess, though.  It used to be that the two parties had "traditional points of disagreement," but at the same time agreed on a fair bit of "commonly held ideas."
2026-04-12 13:21:48 <KipIngram   > But these days they make a point to disagree about EVERYTHING.
2026-04-12 13:21:52 <tpbsd       > If I could have, I would have voted for trump 1, he seemed like a good idea at the time
2026-04-12 13:22:33 <tpbsd       > but the USA hasnt had a memorable leader for decades, they shot the last one I think
2026-04-12 13:22:58 <tpbsd       > I remember seeing the videos of people crying in the streets after kennedy was shot in Dallas
2026-04-12 13:23:21 <tpbsd       > it was like a dark cloud had settled on earth at the time
2026-04-12 13:23:24 <KipIngram   > I voted for him in 2016 and in 2020, but by 2024 I was alarmed about the possibility of him having a willingness to compromise our election processes.  So for the first time in my life I voted Democrat - not for policy reasons but out of that concern for the democratic process.
2026-04-12 13:23:54 <KipIngram   > I was particularly worried because some of the Supreme Court decisions in the run-up to the 2024 election looked almost like "Trump rubber stamps."
2026-04-12 13:23:59 <cleobuline  > Trump c'est l'anté-christ
2026-04-12 13:24:03 <tpbsd       > hey, Id probably be voting democrat myself by now if I was american
2026-04-12 13:24:35 <tpbsd       > and Ive never liked democrats, but at least theyre only bastards, not mad !
2026-04-12 13:24:39 <KipIngram   > But, not too long ago the Court said "no" to Trump on his tariffs - that actually made me feel better.  Not because of anything to do with tariffs - I was just happy to see that they were still willing to say no to him a bout something that was important to him.
2026-04-12 13:24:57 <KipIngram   > My opinion is that as long as the Court is doing its job things will be okay in the long run.
2026-04-12 13:25:35 <KipIngram   > And honestly Trump is closer to my "policy beliefs" overall than the Democrats are.
2026-04-12 13:25:37 <tpbsd       > tariffs seem like insanity to me, a much better idea is to make stuff cheaper, like the Chinese have done
2026-04-12 13:26:06 <tpbsd       > because I'm so old, I remember when I lusted after USA made
2026-04-12 13:26:10 <KipIngram   > I think across the board tariffs are a very bad idea.  Targeted ones - aimed at our enemies - I'm fine with.
2026-04-12 13:26:27 <tpbsd       > in fact, buying USA has pretty much been a life long rule of mine
2026-04-12 13:26:34 <KipIngram   > Or, not "enemies" necessarily, but aimed at nations that aren't playing the trade game fair.
2026-04-12 13:26:53 <KipIngram   > I do think it's important that the US rebuild its manufacturing capacity.
2026-04-12 13:27:04 <tpbsd       > I have a ton of stuff made in the USA
2026-04-12 13:27:17 <KipIngram   > My belief is that China's going to fall apart - when its manufacturing goes off the board we need to be ready to take up the slack.
2026-04-12 13:28:05 <tpbsd       > I buy Chinese now, because 1) it's available 2) it's economical, 3) it's very high tech 4) it's really well made if you avoid the cheap junk
2026-04-12 13:28:23 <KipIngram   > China's demographics are broken irreparably, and they've also planted the seeds of a real estate financial bust that's going to make anything else that's ever happened look like amateur hour.
2026-04-12 13:28:45 <KipIngram   > I think the whole thing is being propped up by sheer government will power - when it falls down I think it will be very sudden and very fast.
2026-04-12 13:29:46 <tpbsd       > I disagree, I think that sure, they may have bad times on the way, but they have put everything into infrastructure, roads, bridges, electricity
2026-04-12 13:30:26 <tpbsd       > china like all empires may fail again, but dont forget, their empire is already 4000 years old
2026-04-12 13:30:41 <KipIngram   > Well, I'm no expert, but I think the demographic thing alone is enough to break them over the course of the next few decades / century.
2026-04-12 13:30:48 <tpbsd       > it's us in the west that are virtual children in the age of empires
2026-04-12 13:31:05 <KipIngram   > We definitely are.
2026-04-12 13:31:06 <tpbsd       > Im sure no expert
2026-04-12 13:31:40 <tpbsd       > but china has put everything into infractructure, so they have a lot to fall back on in bad times
2026-04-12 13:31:48 <tpbsd       > unlike us, and the USA
2026-04-12 13:31:50 <KipIngram   > US demographics aren't "perfect," but our baby boom generation had a lot of kids, whereas in most other developed nations that didn't happen to the same extent.
2026-04-12 13:32:07 <KipIngram   > That kicks our problems a half century or so down the road compared to most other countries.
2026-04-12 13:32:24 <tpbsd       > the USA roads, bridhes and infrastructure is falling apart, something like 80 of bridges are unsafe !
2026-04-12 13:32:37 <tpbsd       > 80%
2026-04-12 13:32:52 <KipIngram   > And our electrical grid needs attention.
2026-04-12 13:33:04 <KipIngram   > Particularly if we plan to build manufacturing back up.
2026-04-12 13:33:07 <tpbsd       > I think all politicians should have to be 'master level' at freeciv !
2026-04-12 13:33:50 <tpbsd       > they dont seem to know that if they spend 100% on the military, infrastructure will fall apart, like education etc
2026-04-12 13:34:16 <KipIngram   > But, we're food independent and energy independent, and still have the best navigable waterway system in the world and those nice fat oceans separating us from adversaries.  So there's still a lot to like about the US situation.
2026-04-12 13:34:33 <tpbsd       > yeah, the USA has a serious power problem, it means that the USA doesnt have the power for new datacentres etc
2026-04-12 13:34:51 <tpbsd       > oh sure, no question about it
2026-04-12 13:35:26 <tpbsd       > I guess I mean that it could be so much better if idiots didnt run the govt
2026-04-12 13:35:47 <KipIngram   > For sure.  We've got all the right resources - we're just not using them as effectively as we could.
2026-04-12 13:36:01 <tpbsd       > the USA also has the largest qty of Helium in the world!
2026-04-12 13:36:23 <KipIngram   > Instead we spend our time arguing over things like who uses which bathroom and so on.
2026-04-12 13:36:33 <tpbsd       > yeah, tons of raw materials, even 'rare earth' just minimal industry and processing
2026-04-12 13:37:03 <KipIngram   > Yeah, we just sort of gave that all away.  I really do hope we claw some of it back.
2026-04-12 13:37:06 <tpbsd       > thats the china difference, they have all the processing, which often takes decades to set up
2026-04-12 13:37:39 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I think Peter Zeihan said it was like a $35 trillion installed manufacturing base.
2026-04-12 13:37:55 <KipIngram   > China is no longer the cheapest labor, but it's got a lot of inertia from that installed base.
2026-04-12 13:39:53 <tpbsd       > yeah
2026-04-12 13:40:12 <tpbsd       > they electricity is 1/4 the price of electricity in the USA
2026-04-12 13:40:13 <KipIngram   > If I had to be President (god forbid), my priorities would be reforming education and building the tightest alliance I could among the US, Mexico, Canada, Britain, Australia, and Japan at the very least - possibly a few o thers.
2026-04-12 13:40:53 <KipIngram   > And there'd be no talk from me about ending NATO, though I do think it's appropriate here 80 year post WWII for the European members to pull their share of the cost of NATO.
2026-04-12 13:41:10 <veltas      > Agreed and it's beneficial for European states too
2026-04-12 13:41:14 <veltas      > As a Europena
2026-04-12 13:41:17 <KipIngram   > Absolutely.
2026-04-12 13:41:33 <KipIngram   > Immediately post WWII it was completely appropriate for the US to shoulder the cost.
2026-04-12 13:41:39 <KipIngram   > Europe was in ruins.
2026-04-12 13:41:43 <veltas      > We all need to wise up about security, UK has looked pretty foolish recently with the state of our navy
2026-04-12 13:41:47 <KipIngram   > But that was nearly a century ago.
2026-04-12 13:42:05 <veltas      > We need to rebuild it and invest in it, if we want UK to continue to exist as an independent state
2026-04-12 13:42:05 <tpbsd       > if I was prime minister of Australia, Id hire all the best captains of industry in the world and tell them to build industries in their speciality, the best in the world, all owned by Australia
2026-04-12 13:42:13 <KipIngram   > I agree, and that makes me sad.  The Royal Navy has such an amazing tradition.
2026-04-12 13:42:21 <veltas      > Just lack of funding
2026-04-12 13:42:29 <tpbsd       > Australia has everything, we are self sufficient also
2026-04-12 13:42:43 <veltas      > That's all it is, that and worrying more about diversity / green energy than the ability to defend
2026-04-12 13:42:50 <KipIngram   > I love Britain, actually - so much of who we are is a direct heritage from you guys.
2026-04-12 13:43:01 <tpbsd       > we have the most rare earths, fuel, metals, farming
2026-04-12 13:43:20 <KipIngram   > The idea of a world in which all of us English speaking nations aren't the tightest of friends just makes no sense to me.
2026-04-12 13:43:25 <tpbsd       > well Im Australian not british, there is a huge difference
2026-04-12 13:43:37 <veltas      > True KipIngram but you can never fully trust anyone
2026-04-12 13:43:45 <veltas      > But we should definitely all have a 'special relationship'
2026-04-12 13:43:46 <KipIngram   > Sorry - that was mostly directed at veltas.
2026-04-12 13:44:02 <veltas      > Sorry I've crashed into the conversation a bit lol
2026-04-12 13:44:07 <KipIngram   > Yes, that's true, and our current President is definitely making that point.
2026-04-12 13:44:09 <tpbsd       > Australia has pretty much allowed the titans of industry in the world to control us with lobies etc. Id stop that
2026-04-12 13:44:39 <veltas      > I'm hoping Trump has learned his lesson from Iran, although apparently the US never truly learns this lesson
2026-04-12 13:45:00 <veltas      > But they're in good company, it's the folly of all empires to try and invade the middle east
2026-04-12 13:45:12 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I can't know of course, but I can't help thinking he expected Iran to be a re-run of Venezuela.
2026-04-12 13:45:20 <tpbsd       > veltas, trump doesnt sound like hes learnt anything lately, except that his new balroom will have lovely drapes
2026-04-12 13:45:22 <KipIngram   > But I could have told him that wasn't going to happen.
2026-04-12 13:45:33 <veltas      > I doubt he thought that KipIngram, because Venezuela was a much better scoped and limited maneuvre
2026-04-12 13:45:50 <KipIngram   > Iran is a hard nut to crack, and the idea of a land war in Iran is scary as hell.  Those mountains...
2026-04-12 13:45:52 <veltas      > Really they got 'forced' in by Israel, this was pretty much leaked already
2026-04-12 13:45:59 <veltas      > They should have called Israel's bluff
2026-04-12 13:46:11 <tpbsd       > well venezula is 'next door', iran is a word away
2026-04-12 13:46:13 <veltas      > And told them they wouldn't come to rescue if they attacked
2026-04-12 13:46:15 <tpbsd       > world
2026-04-12 13:46:41 <veltas      > tpbsd: The big difference is kidnapping a leader is achievable, whereas full invasion is pretty much impossible with a different culture without essentially genocide
2026-04-12 13:47:01 <tpbsd       > the roman empire likewise spread too far, it's supply lines were too long
2026-04-12 13:47:07 <KipIngram   > I don't feel like I have any ability at all to predict Trump - I think half of what he says is deliberate smoke.  He seems to deliberately cultivate unpredictability.
2026-04-12 13:47:16 <veltas      > Roman empire weren't too worried about looking genocidal
2026-04-12 13:47:36 <tpbsd       > I also cant predict trump, I lack the necessary madness
2026-04-12 13:47:38 <veltas      > The only western country who want to do 'what it takes' are Israel, and it's heinous and incredibly slow/expensive, and has ruined their reputation
2026-04-12 13:48:12 <veltas      > Vietnam was were the US really learned they didn't have the stomach for this anymore but it's been a slow lesson to learn fully
2026-04-12 13:48:15 <tpbsd       > Trump however has educated me to the real meaning of 'nero played a fiddle while rome burned'
2026-04-12 13:48:20 <veltas      > lol
2026-04-12 13:48:48 <veltas      > As I said KipIngram this was really Israel manipulating Trump
2026-04-12 13:49:04 <tpbsd       > to think I acyually believed that nero played a fiddle until Trump got into power!
2026-04-12 13:49:14 <veltas      > Israel's gov + Mossad have massively overplayed their hands and I think there will be big changes in Israel now, hopefully
2026-04-12 13:49:30 <KipIngram   > The whole isolationist camp in America is nuts.  It's not a world we can just turn our backs on anymore.
2026-04-12 13:49:47 <KipIngram   > I'm fine with American INTERESTS first, but doing that right does mean being involved.
2026-04-12 13:50:06 <tpbsd       > veltas, apart from the fact that israel has had a lot of 'the gaza' treatment by iran now ?
2026-04-12 13:50:07 <KipIngram   > I think every nation should, to some extent, put its own interests first.
2026-04-12 13:50:16 <KipIngram   > No nation should be expected to be a sacrificial lamb.
2026-04-12 13:51:40 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, the USA isnt fully self sufficient, they need china biggly for their low cost goods
2026-04-12 13:52:03 <tpbsd       > as dos Australia, we have bugger all manufacturing left here now
2026-04-12 13:52:57 <KipIngram   > That's true, and even if we do claw back manufacturing things would still cost more.  I'm fine with that, though.  I want us to be able to do again what we did in WWII, though, if necessary.  Blast tanks, planes, ships, etc. out faster than anyone else can.
2026-04-12 13:53:24 <KipIngram   > Or at least be in a position to initiate that quickly if the need arises.
2026-04-12 13:53:45 <tpbsd       > Australia now buys everything from china, all our local industries closed, the tradesmen retired and died. No one knows how to make stuff anymore
2026-04-12 13:54:31 <KipIngram   > We've all gotten into that boat to some extent, tpbsd.  And it was not a wise move.
2026-04-12 13:54:35 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, that argument has a massive fallacy tho, when your skilled tradesmen have died, that knowledge is lost forever
2026-04-12 13:55:02 <KipIngram   > I don't think that's irrecoverable.
2026-04-12 13:55:38 <tpbsd       > it cant be returned because all the special skills tthey learned arent written down, it was only passed to apprentices by word of mouth and shown by example
2026-04-12 13:55:59 <tpbsd       > history tells us it is irecoverable I think
2026-04-12 13:56:04 <KipIngram   > These days it might be more about making drones by the millions.  I definitely think we need to be integrating that into our military.
2026-04-12 13:56:07 <KipIngram   > It's the new game.
2026-04-12 13:56:16 <tpbsd       > absolutely !
2026-04-12 13:56:34 <KipIngram   > Shooting down $40k drones with $2 million Patriot missles is a losing endeavor.
2026-04-12 13:56:58 <tpbsd       > the USA is in the process of selecting a new assault rifle to replace the M14 ?
2026-04-12 13:57:21 <KipIngram   > I haven't heard anything about that - are we?
2026-04-12 13:57:35 <tpbsd       > they wanted to go to very high power 7mm, with some rediculously high chamber pressure
2026-04-12 13:57:58 <KipIngram   > Our general tendency has been to always focus on expensive things.
2026-04-12 13:58:20 <KipIngram   > Which I guess is fine if we're only going to fight little fights.  But if a "real" war ever comes, we need quantity.
2026-04-12 13:58:28 <tpbsd       > mainly because in afghanistan, troops with M14's couldnt shoot back at soviet dushka's that were 1 km away
2026-04-12 13:58:54 <KipIngram   > Yeah - being out-ranged sucks.
2026-04-12 13:59:14 <tpbsd       > but while they look at swapping the rifle they army currently has, the whole world has changed
2026-04-12 13:59:47 <KipIngram   > Yeah.  Those processes are painfully slow.
2026-04-12 13:59:58 <veltas      > tpbsd: Israel has not had 'the gaza' treatment
2026-04-12 14:00:05 <tpbsd       > so they really dont need to change the rifle, they can keep the existing M14 and all the tooling etc, they just add one DRONE specialist to the squad
2026-04-12 14:00:23 <veltas      > I wouldn't wish that on them either, they just need to move from attack to defence
2026-04-12 14:00:36 <veltas      > And the US can support that, but they need to stop supporting Israeli aggression
2026-04-12 14:00:54 <tpbsd       > the drone guy takes a 2kg drone out of his kit and flies it 1km to the dishka guy and blows him up in a jiffy
2026-04-12 14:01:29 <KipIngram   > Militarily, the big reason for rebuilding our manufacturing base is just that it's always been our ace - a manufacturing infrastructure that can't be bombed by our enemies.  Silly of us to let that capacity lapse.
2026-04-12 14:01:52 <tpbsd       > veltas, I mean, a lot of the settler colonies and telaviv has been blown up by iranian missiles now ?
2026-04-12 14:02:12 <veltas      > I don't think it's anywhere near the scale of what happened to Gaza
2026-04-12 14:02:23 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, the USA manufacturing of WW2 has been long gone
2026-04-12 14:02:43 <tpbsd       > veltas, no, I agree, gaza has been destroyed
2026-04-12 14:02:58 <KipIngram   > tpbsd: I know - I want some of it back.
2026-04-12 14:03:08 <veltas      > I am hoping there will be a big political swing in Israel
2026-04-12 14:03:21 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, in WW2, just one factory priducing bombers was making a complete bomber every minute !
2026-04-12 14:03:51 <tpbsd       > thats including four 18 cylinder rotary engines etc
2026-04-12 14:04:05 <KipIngram   > My understanding of Israeli politics is that the ultra-conservative faction is necessary for a coalition government, so whoever is running things has to pay them some degree of attention lest they pull their support.
2026-04-12 14:04:16 <veltas      > I think that could change
2026-04-12 14:04:41 <veltas      > The regime is going to be unpopular because of just how unpopular Israel is getting internationally
2026-04-12 14:05:06 <tpbsd       > I dont really know much about anything, but I think israel and iran will stay at war for years yet
2026-04-12 14:05:17 <KipIngram   > Yes, I know, and of course that's the sort of thing you'd only do in wartime.  But I think China's manufacturing will be gone at some future time, so what are the rest of us going to do?
2026-04-12 14:05:25 <tpbsd       > I think much of the west will collapse
2026-04-12 14:05:29 <KipIngram   > If we want "stuff" we're going to have to rebuild the ability to make it ourselves.
2026-04-12 14:05:41 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, but you cant !
2026-04-12 14:06:00 <KipIngram   > Of course we can.  Not today, but we could absolutely re-tool.
2026-04-12 14:06:22 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, because the USA is sitting on wrecked, rusty and broken infrastructure, and all of it has to be fixed first
2026-04-12 14:06:57 <KipIngram   > Yes, that's true.  But we could do that.  I'm talking about a decades long process here.
2026-04-12 14:07:09 <tpbsd       > sure, in a decade of day and night work, 24 hrs a day, with 100% of the population behind you, all working as one
2026-04-12 14:07:47 <tpbsd       > but as things are atm, the USA is probably closer to a civial war than everyone pulling together ?
2026-04-12 14:07:55 <KipIngram   > I think you're overstating it.  I'm not saying we will be smart enough to do it, and I know we won't be smart enough to do it as quickly as we COULD.  I'm just hoping that we gradually slog our way in that direction.
2026-04-12 14:08:39 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, well, there is nothing like a serious country wide depression to make people reconsider their lives ...
2026-04-12 14:09:33 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, I think that everyone has to pull together to fix the USA because it's too run down, to abused and used to be easily rebuilt
2026-04-12 14:10:11 <tpbsd       > sure, if everyone works together in harmony, anything is possible
2026-04-12 14:10:49 <tpbsd       > the right materials are there, the people are there, but who can inspire all 200+ million Americans ?
2026-04-12 14:11:33 <tpbsd       > where is the leader to pull them all together, stop all the corruption, heal all the divisions ?
2026-04-12 14:12:00 <tpbsd       > inspire all the worlers for a bright tomorrow, for their children ?
2026-04-12 14:12:33 <tpbsd       > it sure isnt anyone Ive seen in American politics as yet
2026-04-12 14:14:47 <tpbsd       > sadly my own country is no better off, worse in a lot of ways
2026-04-12 14:24:22 <KipIngram   > I can't say I've been thrilled with any of our leaders since the 1980's.
2026-04-12 14:31:05 <KipIngram   > I was a huge Ronald Reagan fan, and honestly Bush Sr. was probably the sharpest foreign policy President we've had in my lifetime.  He wanted us to work out smart ways to use the Western alliance post-Soviet Union, but... we voted him out.  And no one since has come even close to his foreign policy acumen.
2026-04-12 14:31:59 <tpbsd       > I liked regan, I guess him being a ex movie start didnt hurt his charm
2026-04-12 14:32:15 <tpbsd       > Bush Snr seemed to be pretty smart also
2026-04-12 14:32:51 <tpbsd       > if I ever had any complaints about them, they pale now in comparison to the current crop
2026-04-12 14:33:02 <KipIngram   > I think he was (probably "smarter" than Reagan, who never bragged about his brain), but most of all he (Bush Sr.) had the right EXPERIENCE to understand geopolitics.
2026-04-12 14:33:35 <KipIngram   > But I think the election of '92 (when we voted Bush out) was America saying "we don't want to do ANYTHING with the alliance now that the threat is gone - we want to relax."
2026-04-12 14:33:55 <KipIngram   > We collectively overlooked the near certainty that new threats would pop up.
2026-04-12 14:33:58 <tpbsd       > I read once a opinion that Lincoln could never be a president now as he wasnt photogenic or charming enough for tv
2026-04-12 14:34:36 <KipIngram   > Yeah - in 1960 everyone thought Nixon won the Nixon/Kennedy debates as far as verbal discourse went, and people who listened to it on radio thought so too.
2026-04-12 14:34:49 <KipIngram   > But he looked awful on TV, while Kennedy  looked great.
2026-04-12 14:35:04 <KipIngram   > So Kennedy "won" the debate overall.
2026-04-12 14:35:17 <tpbsd       > I've studdied WW2 and main feeling I got was that after 7 years of war, the entire world was exhausted, everyone wanted a break and no more war!
2026-04-12 14:35:32 <KipIngram   > Hard to blame them.
2026-04-12 14:35:37 <tpbsd       > absolutely
2026-04-12 14:35:37 <KipIngram   > Especially Europe.
2026-04-12 14:35:45 <tpbsd       > yes
2026-04-12 14:35:58 <tpbsd       > especially Russia with 27 million dead
2026-04-12 14:36:10 <KipIngram   > Yeah, Russia bled bad.  :-(
2026-04-12 14:36:24 <tpbsd       > they have never recovered really
2026-04-12 14:36:38 <tpbsd       > it's a huge country and to lose 27 million
2026-04-12 14:36:44 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I think this business in Ukraine shows us that.
2026-04-12 14:37:02 <KipIngram   > Anyone who read Russia's press releases expected that to be ove rin a week.
2026-04-12 14:37:10 <tpbsd       > not me
2026-04-12 14:37:30 <tpbsd       > I expected the 'special operation' to go for years
2026-04-12 14:37:32 <KipIngram   > That the mighty Russian military machine would just flatten Ukraine.  But it turns out to be not so mighty after all.
2026-04-12 14:37:39 <tpbsd       > based on what Putin had said
2026-04-12 14:38:02 <tpbsd       > no, Russia never intended to flatten Ukraine
2026-04-12 14:38:02 <KipIngram   > Well,  you called it.  But tell me this - if they eventually win in Ukraine, do you think that's the end of it?
2026-04-12 14:38:04 <KipIngram   > I don't.
2026-04-12 14:38:22 <tpbsd       > I just read what the russians said
2026-04-12 14:38:49 <tpbsd       > no, it's not the end of it because the war isnt russia vs ukraine
2026-04-12 14:38:52 <KipIngram   > I think their goal is very specific: the restoration of military control out to the former borders of the Soviet Union including its controlled eastern European states.
2026-04-12 14:39:21 <tpbsd       > it's USA vs Russia, ukraine is just a proxy for the USA
2026-04-12 14:39:23 <KipIngram   > They believe they have to do that, because in fifty years or so they won't have enough military age men to defend the current official Russian border.
2026-04-12 14:39:46 <KipIngram   > The current border is highly vulnerable.
2026-04-12 14:39:57 <KipIngram   > And thousands of miles long.
2026-04-12 14:40:02 <tpbsd       > no, I disagree, because Putin said clearly what the goal was many times
2026-04-12 14:40:11 <KipIngram   > And you believe him??
2026-04-12 14:40:30 <tpbsd       > I do
2026-04-12 14:40:49 <KipIngram   > Those old Soviet borders are much easier to defend - geography does most of the job, leaving only a handful of choke points that would need overt defense.
2026-04-12 14:41:24 <tpbsd       > he's very articulate and has explained everything to do with the special operation many times
2026-04-12 14:41:45 <KipIngram   > The big problem, though, is that accomplishing that would involve taking out all or portions of several NATO nations.
2026-04-12 14:42:18 <tpbsd       > I believe that Russia will stop at the borders of the Donbass and Lughansk once they have won
2026-04-12 14:42:49 <KipIngram   > Well, now they may.  They'll need time to rest after all these recent losses.  But I think they'll be back.
2026-04-12 14:42:50 <tpbsd       > Putin has sid that they dont want to go further, thay have no interest in that, or the soldiers to manage it
2026-04-12 14:43:16 <KipIngram   > What I don't understand about Russia's fear of being invaded is... why would anyone want them?
2026-04-12 14:43:40 <tpbsd       > he said that he has no interest in capturing Kiev or Livev (spelling) because everyone in those areas hates russia
2026-04-12 14:44:18 <tpbsd       > he has said that no way is he going to the border of Ukraine and poland because everyone there hates russians
2026-04-12 14:44:37 <KipIngram   > I just don't think that solves Russia's future problems in any effective way.
2026-04-12 14:44:44 <tpbsd       > russia doesnt fear being invaded more than it ever did I think
2026-04-12 14:45:26 <tpbsd       > and it's been invaded a lot, by the french (napoleon) and the germans most recently
2026-04-12 14:46:38 <tpbsd       > putin said that they were asked by the people of Donbass and lughansk to protect them from ukraine, same as Crimea did. The peoples all voted to become russian
2026-04-12 14:47:02 <tpbsd       > and thats it as far as I know, from what Ive read
2026-04-12 14:47:36 <tpbsd       > Russia isnt interested in going further, they dont have the soldiers or the desire
2026-04-12 14:48:34 <tpbsd       > if ukraine puled out of the donbass and lughansk the war would be over immediately
2026-04-12 14:49:13 <tpbsd       > same as if the USA and israel stop attacking iran and leave the gulf, that war would be over
2026-04-12 14:50:50 <tpbsd       > but I suspect that those wars will go on for a decade yet, and the west will be hard hit by the loss of energy etc. I know Australia will
2026-04-12 14:51:32 <tpbsd       > I just hope that Australia doesnt impliment a draft and try and send my sons to fight iranians
2026-04-12 17:12:58 <veltas      > KipIngram: Reagan gave pretty dreadful advice during the Falklands war but the US did at least help supply us
2026-04-12 17:13:48 <veltas      > And it was all smoothed over with a visit from the Queen apparently, amazing how effective the British monarchs are in dealing with the US of all countries
2026-04-12 17:14:43 <veltas      > Hoping Charles' visit goes similar this month
2026-04-12 17:27:56 <veltas      > tpbsd: I don't think there's a lot of will to continue fighting, it seems like it's all brinksmanship now because both sides aren't happy with the ceasefire deal
2026-04-12 17:29:00 <veltas      > Well there's will in Israel but I am hoping they're internally putting out enough political fires to avoid getting into more conflict than they're already in
2026-04-12 23:12:18 <KipIngram   > I hope the King's visit goes well also, and I sincerely hope that Trump doesn't stick his foot in his mouth too terribly on the occasion.