2026-04-14 11:17:59 <veltas      > crc: What email provider are you using these days (if you don't mind sharing, of course)
2026-04-14 11:18:42 <veltas      > I remember you said self-hosting was a pain so just interested in recommendations, I'm looking to get away from ProtonMail because their apps are just dreadful, don't really want to pay for something that's this bad
2026-04-14 11:19:39 <tpbsd       > veltas, yeah, protron is crap imho
2026-04-14 11:20:00 <tpbsd       > I have fastmail which is awesome but $52 AUD a year
2026-04-14 11:20:14 <veltas      > Do they allow normal IMAP etc clients?
2026-04-14 11:20:19 <tpbsd       > fastmail is instant
2026-04-14 11:20:36 <veltas      > Because I like just using a third party client with standard protocols, ProtonMail were funny about this
2026-04-14 11:20:40 <tpbsd       > I just use their web app but I imagine they would
2026-04-14 11:20:47 <veltas      > I'll check em out
2026-04-14 11:20:57 <tpbsd       > i recommend fastmail.com
2026-04-14 11:22:58 <tpbsd       > veltas, thay offer a free trial iirc
2026-04-14 11:30:14 <veltas      > Do you have the basic plan?
2026-04-14 11:32:06 <tpbsd       > I think so
2026-04-14 11:32:14 <tpbsd       > thats all I needed
2026-04-14 11:32:26 <tpbsd       > ill check
2026-04-14 11:33:02 <tpbsd       > Basic, paying yearly.
2026-04-14 11:33:16 <veltas      > Looks like I wouldn't be able to get IMAP on basic plan, and would have to go through all this crap too https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360058752854-App-passwords
2026-04-14 11:37:31 <tpbsd       > damn, I should have got buisness basic, it's cheaper!
2026-04-14 11:37:51 <tpbsd       > 4.50 vs 6.50 for individual basic
2026-04-14 13:18:17 <veltas      > Might be more effort to set up?  Or maybe tax is separate?
2026-04-14 13:18:27 <veltas      > Or could indeed just be cheaper
2026-04-14 13:21:17 <tpbsd       > it has 6GB instead of 60GB storage maybe thats why ?
2026-04-14 13:21:30 <tpbsd       > all I needed was 6GB
2026-04-14 13:21:50 <tpbsd       > maybe I can change service
2026-04-14 13:21:57 <tpbsd       > I'll emil them
2026-04-14 13:22:00 <tpbsd       > email
2026-04-14 13:51:14 <KipIngram   > Many years ago I felt like I needed an email client, but for a long time now I just use the web interface on gmail.  It works fine.  I don't really love Google, but I've had this email address now for decades and don't want to change it.
2026-04-14 13:51:31 <veltas      > I'm thinking about phone as well
2026-04-14 13:51:48 <veltas      > Web client is fine if it's light and works well... I wouldn't describe ProtonMail like that
2026-04-14 13:52:07 <veltas      > But also really I value having the option, especially for a service I'd be willing to *pay* for...
2026-04-14 13:52:15 <KipIngram   > My sister-in-law's first husband tipped me off to Gmail right at the very beginning, and I have a less common name, so I was able to grab "first_name.last_name@gmail.com."
2026-04-14 13:52:57 <KipIngram   > No number or anything.  While I was at it I signed up all of my daughters too, so they'd have that perk as well.  Even though none of them were email age yet.
2026-04-14 13:54:21 <KipIngram   > I hardly ever check my email on my phone.  I don't use my phone nearly as much as most people do.
2026-04-14 13:54:34 <KipIngram   > Except as a PHONE.
2026-04-14 13:56:00 <KipIngram   > I preferred the older phones that were small enough to disappear in my pocket.  For years phones got smaller and more convenient.  Then they started wanting to give you an "everything platform" and they started getting bigger - and easier to break if you dropped them - again.
2026-04-14 13:56:08 <KipIngram   > Bad trend as far as I'm concerned.
2026-04-14 13:57:14 <KipIngram   > I like digital devices that content themselves with doing one thing and doing it superbly.  My Kobo ereader is probably my favorite digital gadget.
2026-04-14 13:57:22 <veltas      > Bad trend but very popular thanks to Apple
2026-04-14 13:57:29 <veltas      > And thanks to the consumers
2026-04-14 13:57:30 <KipIngram   > Yes.
2026-04-14 13:57:47 <KipIngram   > I can't claim that the market didn't want it.
2026-04-14 13:57:51 <veltas      > Apple are the best tech company at the moment, as far as I'm concerned
2026-04-14 13:57:55 <KipIngram   > It clearly did.
2026-04-14 13:58:07 <KipIngram   > I think Apple's a pale shadow of what it used to be.
2026-04-14 13:58:19 <veltas      > People are only just coming around to the fact that Apple the 'loser' of AI race may well win in the end, as everything shifts to local/pocket AI processing
2026-04-14 13:58:48 <KipIngram   > I think they were at their high water mark in terms of vision around the time of the original iPod.  Now there was an inspired digital gadget.
2026-04-14 13:59:05 <veltas      > Whatever you think they're meant to do, shipping $600 laptops to people who want them is pretty good IMO, and they're not terrible
2026-04-14 13:59:21 <veltas      > When everyone else is sruggling to keep prices from rising, they keep lowering them
2026-04-14 13:59:44 <KipIngram   > Apple is hopelessly wired into the Chinese manufacturing system - unless they fix that they'll get a nasy surprise when that falls down one of these days.
2026-04-14 13:59:59 <KipIngram   > s/nasy/nasty/
2026-04-14 14:00:07 <veltas      > They already demonstrated they can switch gears to India on a dime
2026-04-14 14:00:38 <veltas      > They own the designs and the whole process, and they've been aware of the risks for a long time
2026-04-14 14:00:38 <KipIngram   > I'm unconvinced - we'll have to wait and see.  Hopefully you're right.
2026-04-14 14:00:41 <veltas      > So they can adapt
2026-04-14 14:00:52 <veltas      > I'm convined, Apple are the most competent tech company left
2026-04-14 14:00:59 <veltas      > I never would have said that 20 or 10 years ago
2026-04-14 14:01:32 <KipIngram   > I think they were the most visionary while they had Jobs.  Jerk of a guy, but he had an insight into things.
2026-04-14 14:01:47 <veltas      > I want to buy more Apple shares this month
2026-04-14 14:01:56 <KipIngram   > These days I think of them as just another huge corporation.
2026-04-14 14:02:00 <veltas      > Jobs was definitely a genius and probably very difficult to work with
2026-04-14 14:02:09 <veltas      > Not the same kind of genius as Wozniak
2026-04-14 14:02:20 <veltas      > Quite an amazing duo really those two
2026-04-14 14:02:21 <KipIngram   > No, very different.
2026-04-14 14:02:29 <KipIngram   > And yeah - they dovetailed really well.
2026-04-14 14:02:45 <KipIngram   > Jobs was more about what the products should DO.  Wozniac knew how to make it happen.
2026-04-14 14:04:47 <veltas      > I think one reason Apple is so 'good' is they're one of the few tech companies that primarily actually *makes* something
2026-04-14 14:05:19 <KipIngram   > You mean as opposed to using contract manufacturing?
2026-04-14 14:05:26 <veltas      > Even if they're not sitting in China and doing it all, ultimately they are responsible for delivering a consumer product that people are willing to part with loads of money for
2026-04-14 14:06:03 <veltas      > And making it cheaper all the time too
2026-04-14 14:06:18 <tpbsd       > I watched a informative video explaining that it's impossible for Apple to move to India 100% because india just doesnt have the all the Apple support industry that China has
2026-04-14 14:06:25 <KipIngram   > I don't put a lot of stock in "popularity" anymore.  Of course, it makes money - no denying that.  But I don't regard the mob as very intelligent.
2026-04-14 14:06:44 <veltas      > tpbsd: I think it could work but clearly would be very expensive.  Fortunately Apple have a stupid crazy capex
2026-04-14 14:07:03 <tpbsd       > what India has is scattered all over the place, poor roads, poor infrastructure, intermittent power
2026-04-14 14:07:09 <KipIngram   > tpbsd: That's what I think as well.
2026-04-14 14:07:38 <veltas      > India might not be best choice but I believe they will continue to evolve their understanding of China alternatives
2026-04-14 14:07:38 <KipIngram   > But I just don't see it as an issue we need to settle this morning.  Time will tell.
2026-04-14 14:07:45 <veltas      > They're not unaware of the issue
2026-04-14 14:08:07 <KipIngram   > Yeah, it may still take decades for China to roll over, so they do have time.
2026-04-14 14:08:11 <veltas      > I hope time doesn't tell and we can keep doing free trade with China
2026-04-14 14:08:27 <KipIngram   > I don't think China will BE CHINA in a century.
2026-04-14 14:08:33 <tpbsd       > Apple has done so well in China because China is organised like no other industrial nation, everything Apple needs for iphones is all local to the apple factories, and power is stable and cheap, PLUS the workforce is highly skilled
2026-04-14 14:08:37 <KipIngram   > I think their demography is irreparable.
2026-04-14 14:10:01 <veltas      > People said the same about the UK in victorian times
2026-04-14 14:10:29 <veltas      > And the US in early 20th century
2026-04-14 14:11:57 <KipIngram   > There was nothing broken about US demography in the early 20th century.  It still had the classic pyramid shape at the time - most people still lived on farms.
2026-04-14 14:12:09 <tpbsd       > I think china will be here another 1000 years, they have been here 5000 already
2026-04-14 14:12:10 <KipIngram   > I don't know what Britain's demographic structure was at that time.
2026-04-14 14:12:25 <KipIngram   > No, they haven't.  Most of that time they've been a bunch of squabblign warlords.
2026-04-14 14:12:31 <tpbsd       > I think China will rule the world in 20 years
2026-04-14 14:13:04 <KipIngram   > It was total chaos most of that time, with the dominant ethnicity constantly changing.
2026-04-14 14:13:20 <tpbsd       > all warlords squabble, by definition !
2026-04-14 14:13:44 <tpbsd       > you may as well say 'in 100 years women will gossip!'
2026-04-14 14:13:47 <KipIngram   > Yes.  But it's not like China has been a unified entity that persisted through that period.
2026-04-14 14:14:30 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, your own country is only 300 years old, it a upstart and may not even make 500 years yet :)
2026-04-14 14:14:38 <KipIngram   > China really began coming on as a world power when the West let them into the WTO in the early 1970's.
2026-04-14 14:14:54 <KipIngram   > And that move was an anti-Soviet strategy (which worked).
2026-04-14 14:15:05 <tpbsd       > China is too old to be critisized by the likes of us upstarts!
2026-04-14 14:15:29 <KipIngram   > So is Iran.
2026-04-14 14:15:39 <tpbsd       > yes
2026-04-14 14:15:45 <veltas      > Which Kissinger never expected to work, they just went and Mao basically pounced on them
2026-04-14 14:15:58 <veltas      > They didn't realise how deep divisions had already run between China and USSR
2026-04-14 14:16:12 <veltas      > Russia and China get on much bette rnow
2026-04-14 14:16:20 <tpbsd       > so has Russia
2026-04-14 14:16:28 <KipIngram   > I think they knew they were pretty deep - the Soviets wanted to nuke them and actually floated that idea around that time.
2026-04-14 14:16:41 <tpbsd       > those countries are all 'civizilations'
2026-04-14 14:16:44 <KipIngram   > Nosed around to see how the West would react if they did so.
2026-04-14 14:16:56 <veltas      > KipIngram: I'm just repeating what Kissinger said in his memoirs, I personally believe him
2026-04-14 14:16:57 <KipIngram   > They got told that we wouldn't react well.
2026-04-14 14:17:47 <KipIngram   > But China had no real "world influence" at all up until then.  All the power they have now is a result of being let into world trade.
2026-04-14 14:18:01 <tpbsd       > we will have to come back in 1000 years and see whats happened!
2026-04-14 14:18:10 <KipIngram   > Globalization has profited them more than any other nation, actually.
2026-04-14 14:18:23 <veltas      > Crazy how old Kissinger was before he died
2026-04-14 14:18:42 <veltas      > Pretty healthy for the least healthy looking politician of his day
2026-04-14 14:19:03 <veltas      > Who knows what secrets he took with him
2026-04-14 14:19:31 <veltas      > He was very unhappy with how things were going with Trump, he saw that as dismantling all his fine work
2026-04-14 14:21:24 <KipIngram   > Yeah, I don't love all the ideas that are currently getting lfoated.  I'm die-hard committed to the idea of NATO.  I do think, though, that collectively NATO Europe should be paying about half the cost of the Western military.
2026-04-14 14:21:44 <KipIngram   > Roughtly - whatever the right economic portion is, based on GDPs.
2026-04-14 14:22:06 <tpbsd       > oh, my farmers meat box arrives tomorrow! I still have 1/2 of the last one left, I was stretching it out!
2026-04-14 14:22:13 <KipIngram   > I think economic recovery from WWII is well behind us now.
2026-04-14 14:22:32 <tpbsd       > my architect daughter sends me one every month, bless the girl!
2026-04-14 14:22:40 <KipIngram   > :-)
2026-04-14 14:22:47 <KipIngram   > Aren't daughters great?
2026-04-14 14:22:58 <tpbsd       > some are, not all
2026-04-14 14:23:17 <KipIngram   > Happily I don't have a bad one.  Got lucky.
2026-04-14 14:23:19 <tpbsd       > but this one yeah!
2026-04-14 14:23:25 <veltas      > I wouldn't know, I've only got sons
2026-04-14 14:23:46 <KipIngram   > I haven't gotten to experience any sons.
2026-04-14 14:23:53 <tpbsd       > veltas, sons are big and strong like King Kong!
2026-04-14 14:24:04 <KipIngram   > I don't know if it was just pot luck, or if I only fire one kind of bullet, or what, but... five daughters.
2026-04-14 14:24:14 <tpbsd       > I have 4 sons, 2 daughters
2026-04-14 14:24:43 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, if youd had 6, the 6th would have probably been a son
2026-04-14 14:25:00 <KipIngram   > Well, 50% chance I suppose.
2026-04-14 14:25:14 <veltas      > So the bar's pretty high for how many kids you have in this channel lol
2026-04-14 14:25:16 <tpbsd       > but 6 are too many
2026-04-14 14:25:23 <veltas      > I've got to step my game up, obviously
2026-04-14 14:25:28 <KipIngram   > My wife did make some noise about one more, but I was getting older and thought enough was enough.
2026-04-14 14:25:31 <tpbsd       > ones time is too divided I think
2026-04-14 14:25:40 <veltas      > KipIngram: Wives do that, can confirm
2026-04-14 14:25:47 <tpbsd       > yeah, six is a load for sure
2026-04-14 14:26:11 <veltas      > As a father I tend to worry more about being able to properly raise all of them, with increasing numbers
2026-04-14 14:26:14 <KipIngram   > She didn't kick too hard, and these days she seems pretty glad we don't still have child raising to do.
2026-04-14 14:26:28 <veltas      > I think mums want to keep reliving the experience of making a new person and having a happy little baby
2026-04-14 14:26:53 <tpbsd       > veltas, we will never know!
2026-04-14 14:27:00 <KipIngram   > Yes, exactly, and I can't judge.  I figure we guys have no real idea how deep that goes.  It's primal.
2026-04-14 14:27:08 <tpbsd       > yeah
2026-04-14 14:27:28 <tpbsd       > it's just our job to sire them and then provide
2026-04-14 14:27:30 <veltas      > My wife has told me often that there's "nothing like" the feeling when you get handed your baby the first time, as a mum
2026-04-14 14:27:42 <KipIngram   > I believe it.
2026-04-14 14:27:54 <veltas      > I've heard a few mums testify to that effect
2026-04-14 14:28:14 <tpbsd       > they should try flying a hellicopter for the first time then ;-)
2026-04-14 14:28:22 <KipIngram   > I mean, it's pretty awesome as a dad, and I assume much much more as a mom.
2026-04-14 14:28:38 <tpbsd       > I can testify that it's pretty stratospheric
2026-04-14 14:28:59 <veltas      > Yeah it is amazing being a dad
2026-04-14 14:29:14 <KipIngram   > My second oldest is expecting her second child in July, and says she wants to have four.
2026-04-14 14:29:22 <tpbsd       > it's a big responsibility
2026-04-14 14:29:26 <veltas      > I didn't go in with any particular expectations but it's all different now, and not for the worse
2026-04-14 14:29:33 <veltas      > Yes it's responsibility
2026-04-14 14:29:35 <tpbsd       > and no fun when you get divorced
2026-04-14 14:29:44 <KipIngram   > That's for sure.
2026-04-14 14:29:46 <tpbsd       > which I am
2026-04-14 14:29:50 <KipIngram   > Me too.
2026-04-14 14:30:07 <KipIngram   > I mean, I'm married to my second wife.
2026-04-14 14:30:14 <tpbsd       > at least my youngest daughter still send the old man fresh meat!
2026-04-14 14:30:20 <KipIngram   > My oldest two daughters are from my first wife.
2026-04-14 14:30:52 <tpbsd       > ahh
2026-04-14 14:31:02 <tpbsd       > well you know the feeling
2026-04-14 14:31:09 <KipIngram   > I think my divorce was actually fairly tame as such things go.  I gave her a good property settlement and got everything I wanted re: the kids.
2026-04-14 14:31:18 <tpbsd       > I never remarried, I wasnt brave enough
2026-04-14 14:31:28 <KipIngram   > Basically purchased a good arrangement re: the kids.
2026-04-14 14:31:36 <tpbsd       > KipIngram, well thats pretty nice :)
2026-04-14 14:32:00 <KipIngram   > I didn't think I wanted to get married again either, and for a year I was a raging bachelor and loving it.  Then I met my second wife and just changed my mind on a dime.
2026-04-14 14:32:05 <KipIngram   > Never saw it coming.
2026-04-14 14:32:12 <tpbsd       > hehe
2026-04-14 14:32:18 <veltas      > I know someone getting divorced right now and it's pretty bad, even though really it's not exactly the worst divorce I've heard of
2026-04-14 14:32:41 <veltas      > So my sympathies!
2026-04-14 14:32:43 <tpbsd       > there are a lot worse things than a divorce, that for sure
2026-04-14 14:33:02 <KipIngram   > My wife wasn't expecting it either - she was just finishing college, and she figured she'd be single for a decade or so, travel around, etc., and then settle down around 30.
2026-04-14 14:33:08 <tpbsd       > I still consider myself very lucky
2026-04-14 14:33:10 <KipIngram   > But looks like I changed her mind on a dime too.
2026-04-14 14:33:19 <veltas      > tpbsd: Healthy attitude
2026-04-14 14:33:31 <veltas      > I always try to count my blessings when things seem bad
2026-04-14 14:33:39 <KipIngram   > Well, I'm a firm believer that marriage isn't worth it unless it's exactly right.
2026-04-14 14:33:57 <tpbsd       > I know the feeling when two strangers meet and cant resist each other, that hapened to me about 2 years after my divorce
2026-04-14 14:33:58 <KipIngram   > So many people seem to just think they "need to be married."  Wrong approach if you ask me.
2026-04-14 14:34:44 <tpbsd       > she was a super fit, 5'3" blue eyed blond who just made a bee line for me at a meditation course and that was that
2026-04-14 14:34:56 <KipIngram   > I saw that a lot in the women I dated during that year off.  Most of them were just desperately angling for a husband.
2026-04-14 14:35:20 <KipIngram   > They'd latch on hard, and then after a few weeks most of them drifted away when they found me "insufficiently committed."
2026-04-14 14:35:30 <tpbsd       > this one just wanted a boyfriend, shed had enough of marriage also, and had 3 kids
2026-04-14 14:35:43 <tpbsd       > hahaah
2026-04-14 14:36:00 <KipIngram   > Well, to be fair, the prospect of a life together is definitely not the ONLY thing that can make a person appealing.
2026-04-14 14:36:04 <KipIngram   > Sometimes it's just FUN.
2026-04-14 14:36:25 <tpbsd       > but I as still stumbling thru life like a idiot and after 7 years decided I needed to be free again
2026-04-14 14:36:58 <tpbsd       > Im married to my milling machine, lathe and scopes now in my shed
2026-04-14 14:37:16 <KipIngram   > To be perfectly honest about it, most of that year I just wanted to get laid.  And that's what I THOUGHT I was after with my wife, too, but that changed real fast.
2026-04-14 14:37:43 <KipIngram   > That first moment I saw her across the room, though, I thought I was just seeing my next prospect.
2026-04-14 14:37:45 <veltas      > Men all need to 'do' something
2026-04-14 14:37:56 <veltas      > Can be looking after a woman, or milling, or kids
2026-04-14 14:38:05 <veltas      > Or all of above
2026-04-14 14:38:28 <KipIngram   > Well, yes - people need to make a life of their own first, and then sometimes it's nice to share that with someone else who's done the same thing.
2026-04-14 14:38:34 <tpbsd       > I think it's almost impossible to have a marriage now, the sexes have been growing too distant the last 10 years with femanism and migtow
2026-04-14 14:38:54 <KipIngram   > But when one or the other person is seeing the marriage as "the meaning of their life," that's a little problematic.
2026-04-14 14:39:08 <tpbsd       > I havent seen a single women Ive felt attracted to for over a decade
2026-04-14 14:39:23 <KipIngram   > Oh god - I see women I'm attracted to ALL THE TIME.
2026-04-14 14:39:33 <tpbsd       > well, I am 71
2026-04-14 14:40:29 <tpbsd       > plus I like the peace and quiet, no kids, no woman
2026-04-14 14:40:37 <tpbsd       > I do what I like when I like
2026-04-14 14:40:38 <KipIngram   > The REALLY young ones have started to slide off the platter the last few years - at long last.  I think it took my daughters reaching that age to make that happen.
2026-04-14 14:41:25 <tpbsd       > as Clint Eastwood one said 'at some point you realise you have nothing in common with them'
2026-04-14 14:46:44 <KipIngram   > I think I just draw a rather shape line between "relationship" and "physical activities."
2026-04-14 14:46:52 <KipIngram   > sharp
2026-04-14 14:47:35 <KipIngram   > And wow - one thing I learned during that year I mentioned is that women don't draw that line NEARLY so sharply.  It's all muddled together for them.
2026-04-14 14:47:57 <KipIngram   > I think there's an evolutionary explanation for that.
2026-04-14 14:48:34 <KipIngram   > A woman needs ONE man in order to be "maximally reproductive."  Men, on the other hand...
2026-04-14 14:49:18 <KipIngram   > So I think the biological urge for a woman is "the best man I can find," whereas for a man it's "AS MANY women as I can find."
2026-04-14 14:49:47 <KipIngram   > We've painted a civilization patina onto that, but that biology still exists.
2026-04-14 14:50:16 <tpbsd       > yeah, well Im off to sleep, probably dream about riding a kawasaki 900 :)
2026-04-14 14:50:24 <KipIngram   > Rest well.
2026-04-14 14:50:31 <tpbsd       > cya dudes later
2026-04-14 14:50:37 <veltas      > Night
2026-04-14 15:11:33 <crc         > veltas: currently gmail, but looking to change that in the near future. I had used proton for a bit, but wasn't happy with it.
2026-04-14 15:11:43 <veltas      > Yeah me neither
2026-04-14 15:12:26 <veltas      > Working on anything for retro or ilo currently?
2026-04-14 15:13:01 <crc         > currently working on an updated retro on iOS
2026-04-14 15:15:09 <crc         > I paused work for the last couple of weeks while I was in Grenada, helping to build a new kitchen & classroom for a school there, just got back home on Saturday
2026-04-14 15:15:50 <veltas      > Wow
2026-04-14 15:16:01 <veltas      > Very nice
2026-04-14 15:16:07 <crc         > last month, for ilo, I wrote a BASIC interpreter and BrainF*ck interpreter (in assembly, not forth)
2026-04-14 15:16:42 <veltas      > I'm interested to know more about the BASIC interpreter
2026-04-14 15:16:59 <crc         > https://charles.childe.rs/DA2026-Poraka.pali and https://charles.childe.rs/DA2026-BrainDead.pali
2026-04-14 15:17:59 <crc         > I need to go back and add comments/finish optimal instruction bundling in these, but didn't have time before the Grenada trip
2026-04-14 15:18:24 <veltas      > Did you upload anything about the trip, just out of interest?
2026-04-14 15:20:16 <crc         > I haven't uploaded anything yet. Will be doing so this week. I have a lot of handwritten notes to transcribe, and around 400-500 photos to go through.
2026-04-14 15:21:03 <veltas      > Interested in that too if you end up uploading anything on your site