2026-06-02 00:51:29 <Stalevar    > veltas, why do you ask?
2026-06-02 01:28:04 <tabemann    > veltas, pirated copies of pre-release Altair BASIC
2026-06-02 01:44:56 <xentrac     > veltas: my uncle used his as a print spooler for his Kaypro
2026-06-02 02:06:22 <xentrac     > it worked well for that
2026-06-02 02:25:26 <Stalevar    > Kaypro?
2026-06-02 02:25:50 <Stalevar    > tabemann, Gates is that dick who started the idea of proprietary software
2026-06-02 02:26:09 <Stalevar    > The letter to hobbists should have been opposite tone
2026-06-02 02:26:40 <Stalevar    > Paying for software itself (as opposed to perftape or magtape it's on) is absurd
2026-06-02 02:27:27 <xentrac     > Stalevar: yeah, a Kaypro 2
2026-06-02 02:28:09 <xentrac     > arguably the IBM antitrust consent decree is what started the idea of proprietary software
2026-06-02 02:33:14 <Stalevar    > xentrac, my relatives had almost no exposure to computers until they bought one to me. And I was trying to teach them, not other way around
2026-06-02 02:35:50 <Stalevar    > And it had Windows XP on it. My mistake was to agree for company to take money for installing software on it. If I knew I would have refused and bought a Linux CD or DVD with a computer magazine instead, but I didn't know you can buy Linux disk on streets, and only looked in computer shops which didn't have linux
2026-06-02 02:36:18 <Stalevar    > So I spent 4 years using Windows until I finally managed to find a magazine with Fedora 6 DVD
2026-06-02 02:36:43 <xentrac     > I think he got the Kaypro when it was already old, perhaps around 01987
2026-06-02 02:37:11 <Stalevar    > Hm, in soviet union they had Radio 86rk with similar specs
2026-06-02 02:37:13 <xentrac     > as I understand it, all four of my grandparents programmed in Fortran
2026-06-02 02:37:43 <Stalevar    > Hm... I think none of my grandparents used computers at all
2026-06-02 02:37:51 <Stalevar    > Not sure thought
2026-06-02 02:37:52 <xentrac     > well, they were in Russia
2026-06-02 02:38:00 <xentrac     > there were less computers
2026-06-02 02:38:01 <Stalevar    > xentrac, in Soviet Union
2026-06-02 02:38:11 <Stalevar    > Most of them died before it became Russia
2026-06-02 02:38:18 <xentrac     > sorry, yes
2026-06-02 02:38:33 <Stalevar    > Not sure, about less
2026-06-02 02:38:48 <Stalevar    > I got MK-52 and I know that several others exist in my town
2026-06-02 02:39:05 <Stalevar    > Given that I'm pretty certain there were lots of them and they were relatively affordable
2026-06-02 02:39:16 <xentrac     > yeah, Soviet production of computers lagged far behind US production of computers (where my grandparents were)
2026-06-02 02:39:27 <xentrac     > not at first, not in the early 01960s
2026-06-02 02:39:52 <Stalevar    > Because some idiots decided to drop BESM and other homeland designs and copy IBM instead
2026-06-02 02:40:00 <xentrac     > yes, for example
2026-06-02 02:40:16 <xentrac     > more generally because there were some idiots who were in a position to do so
2026-06-02 02:40:29 <Stalevar    > I got a computer with KR580VM80 chip for example and it still works
2026-06-02 02:40:31 <xentrac     > but also, for example, the USSR was slow to adopt transistors, instead developing ferrite/diode systems to a level never seen in the West
2026-06-02 02:40:59 <Stalevar    > xentrac, though soviet clones were usually better than original
2026-06-02 02:41:01 <xentrac     > as I understand it a lot of the ferrite/diode literature still hasn't been translated into English
2026-06-02 02:41:22 <Stalevar    > Similar how Z80 was better than i8080, soviet KR580VM80 was too (though not as good as Z80
2026-06-02 02:41:26 <xentrac     > in all ways but the one that counted most: quantity
2026-06-02 02:42:53 <Stalevar    > xentrac, also in SU to get a KR580VM80 computer you would usually have to buy a magazine (there were multiple, Radio, Young Technician, Science & Life) and chips/components separately and solder it yourself
2026-06-02 02:43:19 <Stalevar    > I wonder how many made their computers in USA this way
2026-06-02 02:43:23 <xentrac     > my father did
2026-06-02 02:43:31 <xentrac     > and the owners of the Altair did
2026-06-02 02:43:32 <xentrac     > but not many
2026-06-02 02:43:46 <Stalevar    > xentrac, owners of Altair would still buy a KIT
2026-06-02 02:43:49 <xentrac     > yes
2026-06-02 02:43:54 <Stalevar    > In SU you buy separately, it's different
2026-06-02 02:43:59 <xentrac     > oh, you're right
2026-06-02 02:44:03 <xentrac     > that makes it harder
2026-06-02 02:44:17 <xentrac     > maybe only a few dozen people did that at the time
2026-06-02 02:44:28 <Stalevar    > Still many people who I talked with had computers in late USSR
2026-06-02 02:44:29 <xentrac     > (in the US)
2026-06-02 02:45:02 <Stalevar    > Some still build Radio 86rk today
2026-06-02 02:45:14 <xentrac     > yes, but for example, when I was 6, in 01982, a relatively poor black family lived across the street from us in Dallas
2026-06-02 02:45:21 <xentrac     > they had an Atari 2600
2026-06-02 02:45:32 <Stalevar    > That's a game console, not computer?
2026-06-02 02:45:42 <xentrac     > it's a computer being used as a game console
2026-06-02 02:46:34 <xentrac     > every pizza restaurant and most supermarkets in the mid-80s had several coin-operated video games, which is to say, computers playing games all the time
2026-06-02 02:46:43 <Stalevar    > 128 bytes of ram? No, I wouldn't call this computer
2026-06-02 02:46:58 <xentrac     > that's right
2026-06-02 02:47:43 <Stalevar    > I think if you can write turing complete code as intended and written in manual, it counts as computer
2026-06-02 02:48:03 <Stalevar    > if you have to break in through buffer overflow, it doesn't even if it got a computer underneath
2026-06-02 02:48:04 <xentrac     > a popular kid's toy in 01982 was a Speak 'n' Spell, which was a computer with a speech synthesizer programmed to teach kids spelling (a problem in English because of the ridiculous orthography)
2026-06-02 02:48:47 <Stalevar    > I guess for foreign learner it's easier because one would learn to write/read first and then speak
2026-06-02 02:49:05 <Stalevar    > I make almost no orthography errors in English
2026-06-02 02:49:50 <xentrac     > my grandfather had an HP-38E RPN pocket calculator for his real estate business.  that was one of the first computers I programmed.  It lacked any kind of memory indirection in the user language so its capabilities were very limited
2026-06-02 02:50:26 <xentrac     > he would have gotten it in the late 70s, but I would have been programming it around 01984
2026-06-02 02:50:52 <xentrac     > every public library and every school had a bunch of computers which they tried to interest kids in programming in BASIC
2026-06-02 02:51:37 <xentrac     > so it went way beyond "many people who I talked with had computers"
2026-06-02 02:53:06 <xentrac     > cars were required to have computers in them from the late 01970s
2026-06-02 02:53:18 <xentrac     > (for pollution control)
2026-06-02 02:54:06 <xentrac     > computers were already so abundant by the 01980s that many of them were "wasted" on things like kids' toys like Nintendo and Speak 'n' Spell.  relatively expensive kids' toys, to be sure
2026-06-02 02:55:25 <xentrac     > https://hackaday.com/2022/07/16/a-look-back-at-the-ussr-computer-industry/ claims that, according to some random youtuber, "in 1986 the Soviet Union had about 10,000 computers. At the same time, the United States had 1.3 million!"
2026-06-02 03:02:16 <xentrac     > I'm skeptical of those numbers!
2026-06-02 03:05:30 <xentrac     > there's a book at https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA259360.pdf which may or may not be more reliable
2026-06-02 06:16:08 <lisbeths    > xentrac: now you can buy a unix machine with 4 cores 2.2 ghz for $60
2026-06-02 06:20:41 <MrMobius    > Stalevar: I think the PROG button on there is for entering formulas
2026-06-02 06:25:49 <Stalevar    > lisbeths, unix machine or just regular PC which you can install BSD on?
2026-06-02 06:26:02 <lisbeths    > well unix-like
2026-06-02 06:56:05 <Stalevar    > lisbeths, I got a computer which runs linux for $4
2026-06-02 06:56:21 <Stalevar    > OK, also shipping, so actually $7
2026-06-02 06:56:30 <Stalevar    > It also has RS-232 port
2026-06-02 09:03:25 <xentrac     > lisbeths: yeah I think you can get a Linux box a lot cheaper than that
2026-06-02 09:22:47 <veltas      > Stalevar: Just because I might try some or generally find it interesting what sort of things you can do with a front panel
2026-06-02 09:33:35 <Stalevar    > veltas, it's simply a clunky monitor thing which works on logic chips instead of CPU
2026-06-02 09:33:54 <Stalevar    > But you can play kill the bit
2026-06-02 10:16:53 <xentrac     > veltas: the front panel on the Altair was wired up so that you could read and write memory without involving the CPU, and you could single-step the CPU
2026-06-02 10:17:16 <xentrac     > a lot of older front panels (like the one on the PDP-1) showed all of the CPU registers, one lamp per bit
2026-06-02 10:18:08 <xentrac     > these have some obvious appeal if your CPU isn't working well enough to run a monitor program
2026-06-02 10:21:04 <xentrac     > a thing I've been thinking about is that, now that components and PCB assembly are so cheap, a homebrew CPU built out of discrete components is a lot easier than it used to be.  but if you are using discrete-transistor CMOS, well, that's going to cost you 2.4¢ per 2-input NAND or NOR gate, so maybe US$24 for a small 1000-gate CPU
2026-06-02 10:22:06 <xentrac     > but diodes are much cheaper; maybe you can use diode logic to reduce that by half.  and maybe in particular you can use light-emitting diodes for the diodes in the diode logic; they aren't much more expensive than silicon diodes
2026-06-02 10:22:25 <xentrac     > they're worse at being diodes, but I think they're probably still good enough to work
2026-06-02 10:22:40 <xentrac     > and then you might not need any separate display
2026-06-02 10:26:37 <veltas      > I should say I know what a front panel is, and what it does, I just don't know what kinds of programs you could write on it
2026-06-02 10:26:50 <veltas      > Because obviously it's quite restricted compared to a normal interactive text-based terminal
2026-06-02 10:27:10 <veltas      > Although probably good for debugging, better than some text-based interfaces I've used
2026-06-02 10:27:48 <veltas      > Maybe there's an old manual for it with some good examples
2026-06-02 10:28:38 <veltas      > I've never written 8080, I've mostly worked with Z80 in 8-bit, I'm not 100% sure which instructions are allowed on 8080, I might play with 8080-only code some time
2026-06-02 10:28:59 <veltas      > Maybe it will feel more consistent, because Z80 is all over the place
2026-06-02 12:33:42 <veltas      > I am starting to get fed up with 404 errors for stuff I don't have access to
2026-06-02 12:34:06 <veltas      > I know you're allowed to 404, but it's just not helpful and unnecessary sometimes
2026-06-02 14:47:15 <Stalevar    > xentrac, it's cool, but I imagine it's impossible to monitor registers on a CPU like Z80 or 8080, even as they are simple.
2026-06-02 14:53:22 <veltas      > xentrac: Interested if you make a CPU
2026-06-02 14:56:22 <veltas      > Yeah I think best you can do with Z80 is probably output registers periodically on an interrupt routine
2026-06-02 14:58:19 <Stalevar    > xentrac, https://monster6502.com/
2026-06-02 17:33:19 <crc         > lisbeths: I took a brief look at your vm, and wrote a bit at gopher://forth.works:70/0/lisbeths-vm.txt
2026-06-02 17:44:35 <xentrac     > Stalevar: yeah
2026-06-02 23:22:42 <veltas      > realloc() failure I think is more common outside of glibc
2026-06-02 23:23:13 <veltas      > glibc tries hard to give you a valid pointer, whereas I've seen e.g. jemalloc give you NULL when it's not necessary but valid
2026-06-02 23:27:52 <veltas      > In ANSI C realloc() allows allocating, reallocating, and freeing.  This feature was deprecated and then removed later
2026-06-02 23:28:02 <veltas      > Although good implementations still let you do this