2025-03-06 04:18:24 <za3k        > hi! two comments. first, http://retroforth.org currently says "test", unlike https
2025-03-06 04:19:35 <za3k        > second, i found the docs for ilo, but i remembered crc having another, higher-level VM? something like 2-d stacks or arrays of infinite arrays? am i remembering correctly?
2025-03-06 04:31:38 <crc         > Might be parable
2025-03-06 04:33:15 <crc         > https://github.com/8l/parable is a git mirror
2025-03-06 04:35:19 <crc         > http://forthworks.com:8800/parable has a few short notes relating to it
2025-03-06 04:36:37 <crc         > I'll check the HTTP settings in the morning (nearing midnight here, and I've been up for around 20 hours now)
2025-03-06 04:39:20 <crc         > I occasionally think about trying to revive parable, but I don't really have the time to develop & support a third language these days
2025-03-06 20:08:19 <za3k        > link to Toka? hard to google the Toka language
2025-03-06 20:09:21 <za3k        > hmm. if it was parable i was severely misremembering it (quite plausible)
2025-03-06 20:10:53 <za3k        > i'm inclined to say yes, it was parable and I'm misremembering it based on https://github.com/8l/parable/blob/master/docs/MEMORY
2025-03-06 20:11:41 <za3k        > CRC = cyclic rendundancy check, Toka = Toka Pona (these days)
2025-03-06 20:17:57 <crc         > crc = my initials
2025-03-06 20:18:03 <crc         > toka at https://toka.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html
2025-03-06 20:18:39 <crc         > modern would be toki pona, not toka pona
2025-03-06 20:20:15 <crc         > toka's main use was to implement the original assembler used for retroforth 10
2025-03-06 20:20:47 <za3k        > i'm just saying when i google 'crc toka' i got those two things :)
2025-03-06 20:21:20 <za3k        > wait how did my search engine switch back to google someohw...
2025-03-06 20:23:26 <crc         > 
ACTION makes a note to put together a page w/some detail on the various languages he's done over the years

2025-03-06 20:28:58 <za3k        > yeah an index page would be nice. i read retroforth and it literally doesn't mention your name :)
2025-03-06 20:29:29 <za3k        > i had to click through to patreon to find out your name :)
2025-03-06 20:29:57 <za3k        > i like the toka comment-signature format, and the name "macro" for immediate functions
2025-03-06 20:30:56 <za3k        > i'm still learning forth so i'm very confused on the idea of is-data and how data literals work during compilations still--will learn more
2025-03-06 21:19:04 <crc         > I'll have to dig back in my notes but I've done retro (5-12), rxforth (subset of retro9 for embedding in applications, tetraforth (became core of ron aaron's original reva forth), toka, parable, konilo, sedforth, retrolisp, a port of small c to linux, a subset of pilot, and a basic interpreter
2025-03-06 21:19:15 <crc         > probably missing a few things in that list
2025-03-06 21:27:04 <veltas      > BASIC?
2025-03-06 21:41:50 <za3k        > nah just you know, an interpreter. a basic one, nothing fancy.
2025-03-06 22:14:15 <crc         > veltas: yes BASIC
2025-03-06 22:14:58 <crc         > it was the second language I implemented (after an unnamed, very rudimentary experimental thing)
2025-03-06 22:15:51 <crc         > I wrote my first (never published) Forth  using my BASIC
2025-03-06 22:31:19 <veltas      > What do you think of BASIC?
2025-03-06 22:33:21 <crc         > I like it as an introductory language. It's easy to teach, and straightforward to get started with.
2025-03-06 22:33:50 <za3k        > I learned in QBASIC, and I would really love to find my old code but I'm sure it's long lost
2025-03-06 22:33:54 <veltas      > I have much the same opinion of it
2025-03-06 22:34:09 <veltas      > QBASIC was what I started with too
2025-03-06 22:34:26 <crc         > It's difficult to build larger programs in though. Most dialects don't have good options for structuring code well.
2025-03-06 22:34:42 <crc         > I also started with QBASIC
2025-03-06 22:36:00 <crc         > pretty much QBASIC -> Assembly -> C -> Forth, then a much wider range of languages in the years since
2025-03-06 22:42:24 <za3k        > other people tell me QBASIC was pretty bad as a basic, but it was the only thing i'd ever tried (and i haven't used another BASIC since) so i have no opinions
2025-03-06 22:43:01 <za3k        > i basically still have never programmed real machine code or assembly, just toy stuff like Zachtronics
2025-03-06 22:43:49 <za3k        > i've been coding for 20 years so this is maybe a little embarassing -- i'm pretty sure i've read like 5 different manuals on microcomputer instruction sets, just never actually done it
2025-03-06 22:44:13 <za3k        > i'm much more confident i could do machine code than assembly though, assembling and especially linking is very mysterious to me
2025-03-06 22:44:33 <za3k        > even C compilation+linking loses me fairly often
2025-03-06 22:45:28 <za3k        > uh #bootstrappable might interest people here
2025-03-06 22:48:06 <veltas      > I think it's easier to learn assembly with an old architecture first
2025-03-06 22:48:17 <za3k        > not as much the goals as the specific bootstrap toolchains like stage0
2025-03-06 22:48:27 <veltas      > I wasn't comfortable with assembly until I played with Z80 quite a bit
2025-03-06 22:48:34 <za3k        > yeah -- for example I was curious about "how can i run the following bytes" and it's pretty nontrivial on a real machine
2025-03-06 22:48:56 <za3k        > you need either NASM or to have some JIT thing that marks active pages as executable and wraps them in C function calling convention, or the like
2025-03-06 22:49:12 <veltas      > Specifically I was playing with a ZX Spectrum
2025-03-06 22:49:15 <za3k        > NASM = something that outputs ELF, whatever
2025-03-06 22:49:29 <za3k        > I wonder if you can get qemu to just execute some Z80 code
2025-03-06 22:49:34 <za3k        > that would be pretty reasonable
2025-03-06 22:49:40 <veltas      > Yep you can
2025-03-06 22:49:59 <za3k        > awesome! i'll make a note, i was supposed to learn assembly with someone this week but a family emergency came up with them
2025-03-06 22:50:51 <za3k        > if you have a specific invocation that would be great (also i have no idea how to dump the memory or whatever else you might do for I/O)
2025-03-06 22:50:53 <za3k        > whoops sorry wrong clipboard, ignore that first message
2025-03-06 22:51:36 <veltas      > On the ZX Spectrum I spent some time playing with SDCC and ended up writing assembly too for performance
2025-03-06 22:52:01 <za3k        > i found a commodore64 clone for sale at the store i got excited by
2025-03-06 22:52:15 <veltas      > Eventually was wondering about writing an OS for it
2025-03-06 22:52:23 <veltas      > I did write a Forth for it
2025-03-06 22:52:32 <za3k        > but the keyboard was literally a solid piece of plastic just vaguely in the shape of a keyboard, you had to plug in a USB keyboard and screen and it just ran an emulator. i returned it 'cause my computer already does all those things?
2025-03-06 22:53:08 <veltas      > Yeah just use an emulator
2025-03-06 22:53:36 <veltas      > I had a real spectrum but sold it, I don't have a lot of living space
2025-03-06 22:53:42 <za3k        > nooo i wanna play with fun hardware :)
2025-03-06 22:53:47 <za3k        > yeah very reasonable
2025-03-06 22:54:12 <veltas      > Also sold the CRT TV I had to use with it
2025-03-06 22:54:19 <za3k        > oof yeah that's a lot of space
2025-03-06 22:54:46 <za3k        > okay should kick myself off IRC but ya'll are cool keep being awesome
2025-03-06 22:54:50 <veltas      > That TV was my family's main TV at some point, weird to think because it was so small in terms of screen size
2025-03-06 22:54:56 <veltas      > Bye